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Unholy DPS | My Friend of Misery [4.3.0]


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#41 Apogee-Proudmoore

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:16 PM

I just tested it, the death coil nerf is just tooltip change. Our current death coils scale at approximately 0.23 of attack power.

#42 Laraque

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:22 PM

I had not played unholy for a while but messed with it a bit the other day and noticed the Gargoyle flying out of melee to cast at range several times. Can someone confirm they fixed the Gargoyle AI?

#43 Maikro

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 04:31 PM

I had not played unholy for a while but messed with it a bit the other day and noticed the Gargoyle flying out of melee to cast at range several times. Can someone confirm they fixed the Gargoyle AI?


I noticed the same thing last week. It seems as though this is the case, I'll try and do some more testing on it today in various raid scenarios.

#44 Cornel

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:01 AM

Glyph of death and decay does around the same damage for me in single target as glyph of Death Coil, so I really see no reason to go for DC glyph, if you're someone like me who doesn't change his glyph from one encounter to the other. DnD is ~7.5% of my damage with the glyph, which means the glyph contributes for 2.5% of my damage. Death coil is 18.5% of my damage (factoring in unholy blight). Glyphing it would contribute an amount equivalent to 2.8% of my total damage.
So if there is any aoe AT ALL in a fight glyph of DnD is better. And in pure single target situations you can barely see the difference.


Also:

Saying it's useless because you're geared in a way that minimizes it's effectiveness is not correct. Arguably, you could drop a lot of haste for mastery, significantly increasing your mastery and maintain the same GCD-locked status. Only this time you'd be gaining a lot of haste's effect from the set bonus instead of the gear.

If a "bonus" forces you to drop what would otherwise be your best stats for a weaker one, how can it be good? That can never be a solution. We'll have to squeeze those death coils somewhere.

And finally try as I might I haven't been able to make the gargoyle do a melee attack. Seems fixed.

#45 Symgeosis

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

If a "bonus" forces you to drop what would otherwise be your best stats for a weaker one, how can it be good? That can never be a solution


I have to disagree. Lets say the 2 piece bonus is equivilent to 1% haste, that's 1% haste you can spend elsewhere. Of course, the bonus doesn't affect rune regeneration but it'll still allow you to get more Death Coils off in order to intiate a Dark Transformation. This, isn't to suggest that the 2 piece isn't incredibly weak - it is. An extra deathcoil every 60 seconds is hardly earth shattering; I doubt it's even equal to 0.5% haste but even if it equated to 100%, that still doesn't make the bonus a detriment to your DPS as you seem to suggest, quite the opposite in fact.

#46 Cornel

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 03:23 AM

I have to disagree. Lets say the 2 piece bonus is equivilent to 1% haste, that's 1% haste you can spend elsewhere.

1% less haste won't give you a free gcd for the extra death coil. What we're talking about here is basically dropping all your haste, to the point where your rune regeneration is so bad that you have gcd's with nothing else to do than use the second sudden doom proc you get from the bonus. You're telling me that sounds good?

#47 Symgeosis

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 05:03 AM

First, I need to mention that I misread and thought the discussion was about T12, that's a mistake on my part. But honestly, yes, the idea of not needing as much haste doesn't sound terrible to me. Have I done the math yet to see if it'll be a net gain? No. Does the fact that it possibly changes stat weight mean it's bad? Definitely not. Stat weights change over time, this is to be expected. If the bonus means you get to fill a GCD with a different spell than what you'd use under normal circumstances it just means you hit a different button, it doesn't mean the bonus is poor or a dps loss.

#48 Charybdis

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 05:45 AM

Actually, there are times where the set bonuses would be a DPS loss, or more specifically an opportunity loss.

Getting two charges on SD means we have to spend 2 GCD's on it if we want to make the most of it. During that time, we might get another proc before we can finish off the first. That proc just got wasted, meaning lost potential DPS.

There's also the issue of capping runes or runic power while trying to spend the two charges. What happens when you get a double SD when the first U rune hasn't been used and the second will come up during the two GCD's? Lost potential for damage. We'd have to weigh whether using the charges back-to-back is the best answer or whether spending the U rune before or between SD charges ends up better.

What if we're nearly RP capped during that time? Using a rune would certainly cap us, and yet we might even cap anyway because we can't dump RP for DPS until after the SD charges are used. Wasted resources is lost DPS.

The key thing to remember is that, even if we're wasting resources, stat gains mean we do more DPS. Will the chance to waste resources because of stat X affect its value? A bit, yes. Does that mean stat X is suddenly worse than stat Y? Not necessarily.

Just because we might be wasting resources because of haste doesn't mean it's not still the best secondary stat. Sure it can narrow the gap, but that detail is in the realm of sims to figure out for individual players.

#49 Symgeosis

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 06:02 AM

Actually, there are times where the set bonuses would be a DPS loss, or more specifically an opportunity loss.

I never said it was ever a dps gain under any circumstances (though I highly suspect that it, generally, is) only that the bonus changing stat weights does not necessarily make it a DPS loss. Specifically, I was responding to this sentence from Cornel: "If a "bonus" forces you to drop what would otherwise be your best stats for a weaker one, how can it be good? That can never be a solution." I'm simply encouraging one to keep an open mind until the math is in regarding the quality of the bonus.

#50 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:22 AM

Also to clarify my point: I was being pedantic. I responded to a post that suggested the bonus was "useless". I stated it wasn't, and in fact there was a simple way to make it viable, even though it's debateably lame.

Lame or not, however, it'll have to be pretty bad to not out-DPS next tier gear with all the stat upgrade that brings.

#51 Omedus

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 02:19 AM

I don't understand how people are trying to make the 2P out to be a dps loss, it's an extra resource, for free. You don't have to use it right away. All it does it guarantee you will ALWAYS have an extra free Death Coil. If it's not the right to use it, don't use it. It will speed up Dark Transformation activations, which is obviously a good thing. You are just plain wrong if you think having an extra resource is anything but a positive thing.

#52 Cornel

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:45 PM

I don't understand how people are trying to make the 2P out to be a dps loss, it's an extra resource, for free. You don't have to use it right away. All it does it guarantee you will ALWAYS have an extra free Death Coil. If it's not the right to use it, don't use it. It will speed up Dark Transformation activations, which is obviously a good thing. You are just plain wrong if you think having an extra resource is anything but a positive thing.


You did not read correctly. Nobody said it was a DPS loss. What I said was that dropping haste just to fit an extra death coil would be a dps loss. Like you said, you have to use it as an extra ressource.

#53 Omedus

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:49 PM

You did not read correctly. Nobody said it was a DPS loss. What I said was that dropping haste just to fit an extra death coil would be a dps loss. Like you said, you have to use it as an extra resource.


I wasn't exactly responding to a specific comment. I just think it's plain wrong that people have anything negative to say about such an obviously good set bonus. I definitely don't like the idea of dropping haste for something that isn't always going to be up, in which it's a clear dps loss if it doesn't proc.

#54 Mongia

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 07:01 AM

It's obviously widely agreed that Haste is king secondary stat. Is there a point when people recommend you dont stack it anymore?

I often find myself entirely GCD capped which i assume is the point. If I am GCD capped with leftover resource, then I should think about other stats?

I dont think im quite there yet - I have 2198 haste unbuffed (36.09%). However I was just thinking ahead into t13 about whether I would start to change itemising fairly soon.

I don't want to retire from WoW with RSI any time soon either!

#55 Shinjae

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 06:27 PM

This has already been answered in previous post but I will recap. There is currently no standard cap for haste. If you are GCD capped or feel like you are GCD capped and are wasting resources then you should reforge towards more mastery until you find the fine balance. Every player performs differently and will have a point of haste where they feel they play best at. A good practice is to study your parses with different levels of haste and mastery to find your niche. Running sims with different levels can also save you time but remember that the numbers you get are if you absolutely played perfectly. Your real world number should come close though. Hope this helps a little.

#56 tinkii

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 01:34 PM

Sim will normally always show you haste as the best secondary stat. It´s because its the only secondary scaling with ghoul and gargoyle. I cant see mastery beating haste event at very high haste levels.

#57 Shinjae

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:43 PM

Mastery the way it is designed at this point in the game should not and will most likely never overtake haste. This is obviously dependant on Gear level that we have yet to see. There are points of where very high haste becomes not unplayable per say but clunky where you will be wasting resources. I found my point to be a at 2341 haste with different gear. This was because I could not compose myself with the rotation and it seemed to me that I had stutters where I would have to press my buttons more than once to get off abilities especially when crushing weights procced. Through different gearing I dropped my haste to around 2210ish in favor of a little more mastery and wound up gaining some dps because I could react to the runes coming off CD. Like you said though sims will always show haste to be our 2nd best stat and it is, but I feel that haste/mastery needs to be played with a bit in order to find your specific balance that you can play well at. Make sense?

#58 Bowsersaur

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:33 PM

Crit for pet in 4.3

Unholy DK stat parity: Minions included! - Forums - World of Warcraft


Pretty huge and awesome change. +1 Blizzard.

#59 direddyre

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

Awesome change indeed.

Now my calculation from page 1 may be of more relevance, the difference between mastery and crit is not all that big and this change could easily swing it to crit's favor.
Hell, it could even swing overall DK balance slightly more towards Unholy, although I doubt it. Even if crit turns out to be better than mastery, then switching your reforging to crit instead of mastery will still only have an almost negligible effect on your overall damage and the pitiful amount of crit that UH DKs currently have (which would be the direct "buff effect" of this change) will increase pet damage by 5-10% at most.

#60 theevilfish

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:33 AM

maxdps.com is placing dmc: hurricane above the heroic rag trinket? i'd love some clarity on that




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