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#41 Quigon

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 07:30 AM

Rogues should be on the nagas, and warlocks on the elementals. You increase both classes dps by significant amounts with this setup. Because most people tailor their strategies to videos - ones that were made before 2.1, they are using rather sub-optimal strats.

Our rogue dps almost quaded when we moved them onto nagas... our warlocks went up almost two fold by dotting almost 4 mobs at a time.
Its a massive win-win situation.

Don't copy the videos, use simple theorycraft here.

However, if you insist on having rogues on the elementals, I've seen guilds do this strategy, and enter phase 2 with 2 striders and 2 full nagas up, still kill both while in phase 3, and then proceed to kill the boss. So you don't have to keep up to win. That is also a fallacy.

#42 Errhellno

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:50 AM

My guild has done a couple of days on Vashj and we've only just now figured out how to make the Melee on the elementals and casters on the elites strategy work for us. It took some fine tuning to figure out but what we came up with ultimately is a strategy that is very unforgiving and somewhat subject to bad luck. What usually happens regarding bad luck is an elite spawns and heads to certain healers we have assinged to the edges of the steps instead of the healers in the center circle. That means, less time for DPS and occasionally a 1 shot (if im hamstringed the healers as good as dead).As such, i have been watching this thread and considering options.

I agree that melee is best on the naga now just based on theorycraft and logic. I also agree with quigon that it can be done with either strat. However, as a raid leader i need consistency. I also need a way to pitch a DPS strategy change to a group of raiders who have wiped for 2 days figuring out the best phase 2 DPS assignments with out old strat.

We bring 7 healers 16 DPS and 2 prot warriors tanking. 5 melee positioned around the room with 2 hunters on cleanup leaving 9 caster DPS for the center who alternate from elite to strider. Our DPS timing is fine with this... and our biggest problem so far has been the movement factor for rogues especially when tainted elementals spawn. In other words, they just lose too much DPS moving to the tainted spawns and we really run the risk of letting them despawn as has happened quite often (alot of L2p involved here though i would imagine.).

I can't see us changing the DPS/healer ratio at all. We don't need the healing and we can't lose any DPS. So i'm consider putting a combination of 5 locks and hunters on the elementals. We normally bring 5 melee DPS so all 5 would be on the naga. That leaves us with the mages/shadow priests and a kiting warlock on the fen strider (remaining 6 DPS, 1 is kiting though). Finding out if this allocation will work is only a matter of attempts... my bigger concern is the aggro on the fenstrider. As it stands right now, our lock has sufficient time to get aggro while the casters nuke down the naga.

If we switch to the melee covering the naga completely im worried that a lock will have trouble holding aggro resulting in a net loss of DPS on the big ones. Can anyone with experience with this method clue me in on whether or not i should even expect the lock to hold aggro? I'm guessing we really need solid stuns on the fenstriders to give him sufficient aggro time. I'm not even sure if thats enough DPS on the targets and im kind of hoping that we might even get away with only 4 Ranged DPS covering elementals but that really seems like its pushing it. I just figure if we switch to this method we can keep the healers all near the middle so i (as a tank) can go grab elites before they get 1 shotted.

Any tips would be appreciated, mainly im concerned with how i am to pitch the idea to my raiders and switch from our strategy that we can probably get by with but inconsistently at best (at least until gear makes it a a non-issue).

#43 kaib

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:05 AM

I think melees are indeed bad to use on water elementals. Running around doesn't help much. Running around in the lower stairs area makes things worse cause that puts them out of los for a lot of healers. We have five ranged guys with high burst dmg that are spread around the stairs, destr warlocks and fire mages. They kill water elementals and tainteds when they spawn. Preferrably 2 of them help on a tainted so it 100% dies without fuckups, that's why we use 5 and not 4 people there.
Then we tank the nagas pretty much right on vashj with all our melee dps on that. The 5 guys tainted guys have 3 healers assigned to them that stand on top of the stairs, heal them and whoever is in range for them and are the tainted core buddies.
The melees dpsing the naga break for any water elemental that the 5 guys miss. Generally that only happens when a tainted spawns and they have to deal with that.
Two shadowpriests and whatever we have left from warlocks/mages and hunters are dpsing the striders, with either a hunter or spriest kiting it. I don't think it really matters which class does the kiting, as long as you have someone who can reliably do it. Hunters are decent as they have nice snap aggro. For warlocks it usually means they either dot it up first, in which case it might run to a healer, or they start with searing pain, but then they lose a bit of aggro in the long run.
Paladins using HoJ on those makes it much easier as well. Blackout procs here too so all your shadow priests should dps striders and preferrably keep Mind Flay (highest slow with 50%) up all the time.

With such a setup you give your melees minimal dps downtime, which should boost up your overall dps.

#44 Skulli

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:32 AM

Also what happens when someone d/c's and you have to wait for their roll to time out...?


Not much, if its core 1-3 then you will get it after around 30sec, enough time before the last elemental.
It will only delay when it happens at the last core.
And dont know how they can fix it, maybe removing the ability to set loot treshold below x.
But we tried it out on our kills and its a bit easier with it ;). You dont have dps static waiting to throw core to someone, they can just continue dps all the time.

#45 Vodrin

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:49 PM

i've already stated a perfectly fine way to fix it. have the tainted elemental drop a one charge 'soulwell' which gives a tainted core. loot rules cannot effect this and i assume if they are to fix it its how they will go about it.

its just one less thing to worry about while learning the difficult phase of the fight

#46 Failure

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:59 PM

i've already stated a perfectly fine way to fix it. have the tainted elemental drop a one charge 'soulwell' which gives a tainted core. loot rules cannot effect this and i assume if they are to fix it its how they will go about it.

its just one less thing to worry about while learning the difficult phase of the fight


It sadly doesn't work that way. No matter how many times they've changed the Felwood plants, when you time it properly, up to today, you can still coordinate people clicking on them at the same time, and having everyone get one. I haven't tried it with a soul well, but my guess is if you coordinated 20 people clicking within ~.5 sec of each other, it would create >10 healthstones. It would still be exploitable.

#47 Dawme

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 01:13 PM

How is something that has such a minor effect on the fight worse than something that completely changed it's nature?

Throwing cores is easy - not throwing cores is even easier. Not a huge difference between doing it one way or the other, except missing out on a bit of fun.


It has definitely NOT a minor effect. This exploit can and will make the difference between a p3 start with 2 nagas / 1 strider up and a p3 start with 1 naga @ 50% only and this difference is what will make or break your kill.
How to fix it ? Well, it's simple, remove the /script possibilities to set the threshold under green items, it doesn't exist in the standard UI so no problem here.

#48 Stormheart

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:03 PM

You would just clean up the next naga and strider and wait to use it at that point instead.

While it is clearly an exploit, if you are proficient in hot potatoe, it won't affect your time at all really, though you may opt to delay p3 for 40 seconds or so. I will admit to using the loot threshold, but for all the times we lost because she bugged in p2 or splattered the entire floor 1 minute into p3(also a bug), i really don't feel bad about it.

Yes, it should be removed, but I fail to see how they can do that without completely retooling the loot mechanics, and it probably isn't high priority on their list, seeing as how after a 3 month patch cycle, they didn't even fix 2-3 extremely major bugs until yesterday.(She also doesn't reset sometimes, forcing another wipe)

It has definitely NOT a minor effect. This exploit can and will make the difference between a p3 start with 2 nagas / 1 strider up and a p3 start with 1 naga @ 50% only and this difference is what will make or break your kill.
How to fix it ? Well, it's simple, remove the /script possibilities to set the threshold under green items, it doesn't exist in the standard UI so no problem here.



#49 Flavahbeast

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:18 PM

Yes, it should be removed, but I fail to see how they can do that without completely retooling the loot mechanics


make the core a chest that spawns on top of the dead elemental and opens instantly. problem solved

#50 Xizenta

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 05:26 PM

make the core a chest that spawns on top of the dead elemental and opens instantly. problem solved


Chests pop roll windows too now.

#51 Vanstrider

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:57 PM

Do most guilds put DPS on the bats or just leave them alone completely.

We went into Phase 3 with 25 up and 3 nagas (one at 15%) up, we burned down the nagas as fast as possible and went onto Vashj, we wiped at 11% enrage and I felt we lost a lot of damage due to the melee and the rest of the raid having to move around so frequently.


On our most recent kill, we left the bats alone and let me tell you that is a BAD idea. When left alone, they do a massive toxic spore spit in the middle of room that covered up the entire inner circle where you tank Vashj. As long as you kill enough bats to not let that happen then you should be ok.

#52 Stormheart

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:15 PM

You can kill the bats?

How much hp do they have?

(yes, obviously, we didn't think the strat out on our own, it clearly was a mistake, but hey, it worked)

#53 Sokkou

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 08:17 PM

They have 14k. Hunters can easily take care of them.

#54 Hate Monkey

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:18 PM

On our most recent kill, we left the bats alone and let me tell you that is a BAD idea. When left alone, they do a massive toxic spore spit in the middle of room that covered up the entire inner circle where you tank Vashj. As long as you kill enough bats to not let that happen then you should be ok.


For my guild, we found out that tanking Vashj in the middle is probably the worst thing you can do for stage 3. Tank her on the outer ring and move her around whenever poison lands on the melee, and when the soft enrage hits, just don't stop moving her, easy mode phase 3.

#55 soadapop

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 01:44 AM

For my guild, we found out that tanking Vashj in the middle is probably the worst thing you can do for stage 3. Tank her on the outer ring and move her around whenever poison lands on the melee, and when the soft enrage hits, just don't stop moving her, easy mode phase 3.


How exactly can you keep her still, is it possible? From most videos I've seen, in p1/p3 she doesn't move at all, just taunt when tanks get stunned? We have freedom up at all times.

#56 ikillyouheal

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 01:47 AM

How exactly can you keep her still, is it possible? From most videos I've seen, in p1/p3 she doesn't move at all, just taunt when tanks get stunned? We have freedom up at all times.


Grounding totem in the tank group.
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#57 Stormheart

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 07:22 AM

Grounding totem in the tank group.


This helps a lot to deal with shock blast, but she still tends to shift around a decent bit in p1. In phase 3 this is substantially more helpful as she tends not to move as much, and this reduces it further

#58 Whitemane

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 02:19 PM

Grounding totem in the tank group.


Does this eliminate the need for an offtank?

#59 Praetorian

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 02:21 PM

Yes, we've never really use an "offtank" -- just totems on every cooldown.

#60 WiPe|Domin

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 02:54 PM

While killing bats in p3 is certainly a viable option i dont see the need to do this. Since the whole fight is all about p2 and if you are succesfoul at it and have all 25 plp up there is no way you can wipe to toxic clouds, we never bothered to even look at the bats and each time we had a correct execution of p2 we killed her in p3 without problems. But thats just us, its a possibility some players find it difficult to stay alive in p3 and avoid clouds, yet if they do what are they doign killing vashj? buying loot or what :)




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