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#1261 Relative

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 10:36 PM

After 4 nights of wipes we finally took Vashj down. We had been having quite a bit of trouble with striders and naga killing people on spawn, and cores despawning. I ended up taking a screenshot of the room using WoW Map Viewer and marking it as so:

http://11thhourguild.com/vashj.jpg

Numbering the area as a clock really helped out tanks/MD hunter to know where the strider/naga was popping up. Last night, everything just "clicked" for us, which lead to our first time seeing phase 3 which quickly turned into our first kill.

The big "win" strats for us:

Clock numbers, having people call out where something spawns by its clock position.

A frost mage on the Strider.

The stair DPS people setting their stair edge healer as their focus target for the core throw.

Everyone not talking on vent when a tainted spawns except for the person next inline for the core.

Naga being tanked so their cleave was "in" Vashj's hit box.

Overall, everything just fell into place which gave us our first kill!

If you wish to use the jpg file, feel free. Green dots are healers, blue dots are stair dps. Yellow is naga tank/melee dps area. I didnt mark where the strider DPS would be or the strider kite path because I didnt feel it necessary.

Our Raid makeup for the kill.

On the Naga:
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin
Feral Druid (me)
Rogue
Rogue

On the Strider/Naga:
Affliction Warlock (kiter)
Spreist
Spriest
Mage
Mage
Marks Hunter

On the Stairs:
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Spriest
Desto Lock
Affliction Lock

Center Healers:
Resto Shaman
Resto Shaman
Holy Paladin

Rim Healers:
Resto Druid
Resto Druid
Holy Paladin
Holy Paladin

#1262 caelus

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 10:51 PM

My guild has long past Vashj, but from my memory the biggest problems were the striders. Our guild had great dpsers and in the end we only needed to put 1 dps per side (4 sides) to do the elementals as well as the tainted ones. (Usually 2 BM Hunters, 1 mage, 1 ele Shammy)

Whenever the tainted spawns, the elemental dpsers ignores the regular elementals and focus on the tainted. And regulars that are ignored and wanders past the rim will be taken out by the naga dpsers. After being able to have 4 dps alone take care of all sides, it was a breeze for us.

#1263 astolpho

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:53 PM

Hello all. My guild has finished its second night of attempts on vashj. I would like some advice on the strategy to know what you think we're doing wrong.

Group Setup:

two prot warriors
three melee (or 4) depends whos on but we pick from two rogues, ret pally, fury warrior, enhance sham
seven healers (2 resto sham, 1 pally, 2 holy priest, 2 resto druid)
12 ranged DPS (or 13)

Arrangement
1 BM hunter solo handling elementals on each quadrant.

1 healer west side (priest), 1 healer south side (priest), and 1 healer covering the back side roaming (tree, opposite of the entrance).

4 healers up top on center (pally with righteous fury up, two chain healers, one tree)

Tanks tanking nagas in the center.

Ranged in the center on striders

Melee in center on nagas until a tainted spawns. When a tainted spawns, the melee are assigned to assist on elementals that squeak by as the hunter handles the tainted

The problems

Healers on the outside get an unlucky poison+forked lightning. If a side healer dies, the hunters soon die from poison/lightning. The attempt collapses.

DPS is steady on the striders. We can consistently get two generators down calmly but by the time the second generator is dunked, either a hunter or his healer is dead. One a hunter dies, someone has to go try to pick up the elementals and the DPS in the center starts slacking. It all plummets from there.

What type of healers do you think are the best for the roaming/ramp positions? I tell the holy priests to keep prayer of mending on cooldown at all times no matter what. To get hit by an random lightning, the prayer of mending is golden. Especially if the healer is close enough to his hunter then it can ping-pong between them. Am I putting less-than-ideal healers on the outside? Would a paladin be better since they can bubble if they got knocked way down by poison/lightning?

#1264 Kamaegwyn

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 06:07 PM

Astolpho, you have 8 ranged on the striders, plus all melee on the naga ? That's a lot dps up top. You should get all striders and elites down with time to spare with that setup. If that's not the case, dps needs to really step it up.

We have 2 dps per quadrant, and space out the trees to battle rez in case a key dps or healer goes down.
We usually go into phase 3 with the last strider almost down and about 3 elites left with 5 ranged on the striders and 2-3 melee on the elites.

On SSC / TK gear level, you need pretty much your whole raid alive going into phase 3, so we make liberal use of soul stones and battle rezzes. We're running melee heavy (we're a semi-casual 30 man guild, so we pretty much take whoever shows up at raid time), and killed Vashj for the first time last night on our fourth night (none of us had killed Vashj before).

2 tanks (warrior / pally)
6 ranged (2 hunters, 2 mages, lock, shadow priest)
9 melee (3 rogues, 2 druids, 2 warriors, enh. shammy, ret. pally)
8 healers (4 priests, 2 trees, pally, shammy)

Tanks on top with one dps warrior (on elites) and 4 healers.
Enh. shammy kiting striders, 5 ranged dps on striders.
7 melee + 1 hunter on elementals, plus 4 healers (one in each quadrant).

#1265 Kumar

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 08:41 PM

After 4 nights of wipes we finally took Vashj down. We had been having quite a bit of trouble with striders and naga killing people on spawn, and cores despawning. I ended up taking a screenshot of the room using WoW Map Viewer and marking it as so:

http://11thhourguild.com/vashj.jpg


That diagram was really useful and our guild is now using that positioning. Here is hoping for some success soon.

#1266 Moof

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:19 AM

I'd just like to give a big thanks to everyone who has provided information on this thread. Our guild finally got our first Vashj kill tonight after a total of around 9-10 hours raid time. A lot of useful tips and tactics I picked up from here so I'll share what worked for us:

Naga
To deal with the elites we had a prot war and prot pala. The prot war would tank all the elites while the prot pala grabbed them and took them to him. We had 2 rogues permanently stationed on the elites to dps.

Elementals
We had 3 teams of 1 hunter + 1 melee + 1 healer covering 4 segments of stairs each with no problems. We found it better to have each dps covering 2 segments each to minimise the amount of running required by the melee. We found that dps wars and feral druids are best suited for this job now that elementals are bleedable. DPS wars for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. As a feral druid myself, I found a mangle -> shred -> 3CP rip adequate for making short work of the elementals. I run at around 50% crit raid buffed so one move will most likely crit and the elementals usually die from the rip bleed damage before they make it the inner ring. We used 2 priests and a paladin to heal the dpsers, but i assume any healer would do.

Striders
We used an elemental shaman to kite, with a resto druid following him around the middle throwing hots on him and the prot war at the same time. We had 8 dedicated ranged dpsers in the middle with 2 resto shamans healing them. Our gear level is late T5/early T6 so we were getting the striders down with around 10-15 seconds spare meaning the ranged could turn around and dps the naga between spawns. Additionally, any elementals that slip through could always be quickly dealt with by a swift fireblast/shadowburn/moonfire.

Tainted Cores
We found the best chain for tainted cores was: Elementals dps -> Elementals Healer -> Resto shaman (Raid healer). The shaman would always stand next to an active generator ready to dunk the cores while healing the raid. Sometimes our prot pala would be an extra link in the chain if the remaining generators were too far from the elementals healer.


I think another key to this fight is communication. Its quite funny that someone mentioned using clock hours to indicate positions because we had adopted that strategy yesterday as well! Elemental dpsers would always call out on vent (or make a macro if they didnt have a mic) where the tainted elemental would spawn e.g."Tainted elemental, 11 o'clock!". This meant the healers would always be ready and in position to catch the cores.

Just before we'd dunk the final core, we have the prot pala taunt all the naga off of the prot war so he'd then be free to pick up Vashj as she broke out. We made it into phase 3 with 24 alive and proceeded to finish her off.

#1267 tooper10

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 07:41 PM

Our guild has been attempting Vashj for about a month now. We have been taking a focused approach to learning the fight. We can breeze through Phase 1. Our first attempts focused on elemental groups learning their jobs. We are now focusing on learning the Strider techniques better. I am the Warlock responsble for kiting the Strider and with some practice we should get it down. I was wondering, however, why it was necessary to actually kite the strider around the circle. Copied below is a post I made in our forums wondering about alternate kiting strategies for the Striders. I respect this forum immensely and would appreciate all constructive thoughts on my post:

I have been giving some thought to the kiting strategy though and have some ideas in regards to how to carry it out. For me, the biggest problem is holding aggro because the strider is not being slowed down enough for me to SP enough; I just don't have enough time to stand still which is why Tumama complained about pulling aggro. Obviously the striders have to be controlled and nuked as fast as possible, but in all my reading I don't see why it is completely necessary to kite it in a circle. Again, I think this is a paradigm that isn't exactly necessary. My thoughts assuming a similar group to Saturday (Warlock x 2, CoEx Lock x 1, Mage, Shaman, SPriest):

"Split the groups into two groups of three: CoEx Lock, Lock, Spriest/Lock, Shammy, Mage. I put Spriest and Shammy in separate groups assuming Frostshock and Mind Flay each cause more threat than and balance the groups threat out somewhat. From each group, have one toon designated as aggro, in this case the CoEx Lock from group 1 and the Shammy in group 2. At the beginning of Phase Two, Group one plants itself on the north side of the circle and group 2 is on the south (striders spawn points vary). The aggro toon in whatever group is closest to the strider when it spawns pulls aggro while everyone else in the group snares it with nets, slows, whatever (lets assume the CoEx Lock has aggro first). I spam Searing Pain as much as possible while kiting it a little becuase in the meantime, the other group, hearing the strider is up on vent positions themselves on the oppoosite side of the strider and goes to town. Once the second group is in position, the second group goes nuts and the Shammy Frostshocks the hell out of the strider and I stop Searing Pain. The Shammy should probably pull aggro and turn the strider around. At this point I lose aggro and start spamming Searing Pain again and the shammy stops Frostshocking. Rinse and repeat until the strider drops. When the second strider hits, whatever group doesn't have aggro grabs it and the group with aggro finishes it off then comes to unleash hell on the second.

We may have to hash this out more and maybe there are things I am not thinking of, but it seems like this may give us a lot more control over the strider than attempting to lead it in a circle. It isn't that hard to coordinate and communication should be easy. Once my screen no longer displays "AGGRO" I spam searing pain and stop when it does; similar actions for the Shammy. Whoever is on elementals in the area of the strider can dps it whenever they are free. If a core has to be passed to a generator near the strider, we just move the strider. If someone pulls aggro who wasn't supposed to, the aggro in the group opposite them steals it and people lay off for a sec. If done right, the strider should stay in relatively the same quadrant until it dies and provide the raid with level of predictability we don't get from the original strategy."

I am all ears...thank you folks...

#1268 Penguin

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:25 PM

The problem with what you've described is the 130% ranged aggro threshold. The strider is going to move further and further towards the groups as the number of times it flips targets increases. It becomes a question of if you can do enough damage to kill it before it reaches one of the groups and fears them all over the place.

Personally, I think that you're over-complicating the problem. It's pretty easy for a warlock or elemental shaman to kite the strider around. It leads to a more predictable path and also frees up the attention of all the other people you have involved in your plan, in case elementals start leaking.

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

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#1269 Celandro

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:36 PM

If you want more agro, use more stuns and nets. Dont try and ping pong.

#1270 tooper10

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 09:19 PM

The problem with what you've described is the 130% ranged aggro threshold. The strider is going to move further and further towards the groups as the number of times it flips targets increases. It becomes a question of if you can do enough damage to kill it before it reaches one of the groups and fears them all over the place.

Personally, I think that you're over-complicating the problem. It's pretty easy for a warlock or elemental shaman to kite the strider around. It leads to a more predictable path and also frees up the attention of all the other people you have involved in your plan, in case elementals start leaking.



You're probably right and I certainly don't want to do anything to make this fight more complicated than it is already. I appreciate it.

#1271 Relative

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 02:24 AM

That diagram was really useful and our guild is now using that positioning. Here is hoping for some success soon.


Glad that helped, I tend to find that making a custom diagram like that per exactly the strat we decide to use for each fight really worth the time. If they work for you feel free to use them.

<offtopic>
If you check that directory(http://11thhourguild.com/images), diagrams for other fights are always being uploaded/updated that might be of use.
</offtopic>

I will also note that the image location has moved.

New link:

http://11thhourguild...mages/vashj.jpg

#1272 Malleus

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 10:15 AM

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who offered help and advice when I asked a few pages ago. It was very much appreciated.

The strategy we finally decided on for Phase 2 is slightly different to the ones outlined elsewhere.

On the platform, the Naga tank is inside Vashj's hitbox as normal, facing north. The melee DPS are assigned to the Naga and occupy the north of the central platform; Strider DPS stand on the south side and kill adds as required. Striders are kited in an arc to the south of the west to east generators and back.

We divide the stairs into four sectors, and to each one we allocate a Hunter and a healer. The healers on the stairs tend to be the ones who cannot cleanse poison; in that way, everyone but the Hunters is in range of a cleanser at all times. Since stair healers use minimal mana (when in the role, I've started Phase 2 at 70% mana and been at 100% by the second Core), they can afford to heal their Hunter through the poison. When a Tainted Elemental appears, the healer calls his group number. At that point the melee break off Naga DPS and kill the regular Elementals until the Hunter has finished the Tainted.

Other than that, everything is business as usual. We haven't actually downed Vashj yet, but only because overenthusiastic people dunked the last Core without telling anyone or waiting for us to be Striderfrei. Our last two attempts got us to that point with no missed Cores and fewer than three Surges, though, so this plan is definitely viable.




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