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4.3 Changes Discussion


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#21 Shadowwaltz

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:54 AM

Given the very little detail we actually know about any 4.3 content, it would be unwise to assume that the improvement to Vendetta will be as 'useless' as it is in current content.
The st bonus could still be useful, say, for Lord Rhyolith type encounters, where the extra seconds could mean getting some extra boosted attacks in despite the need to target switch constantly.


Never said it was useless, but with Vendetta being such a long lasting debuff it's not always as useful as dance or AR. Yeah you still get some of the bonus on a fight like Ryolith, but the bonuses to AR and ShD are better because they stay with you even when you switch targets.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that mutilate is gonna get screwed unless there's a lot of fights where we can stick on 1 target for 39 seconds at a time.

#22 Fearendil

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:12 AM

I'm not very good at maths but as a combat rogue ,could we wonder at a point where energy capping with both set bonuses is worth dropping one point in Relentless Strike event if the dps loss is massive on Simulationcraft ?

#23 Furtim

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:41 AM

A short but easy fix would be to have Vendetta transferred via Redirect like it does for Bandit's Guile.

#24 Tumblebeer

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 11:31 AM

On the topic of Vendetta glyph vs BS glyph, Aldriana recently showed that the choice is still clear, despite the t13 set bonus.
However, if we are in a situation where we might have to switch to mutilate sub 35% to avoid wasting energy, would perhaps the difference between these two glyphs dimnish even further?

If we assume that energy capping is unavoidable using backstab with the glyph during tricks, that would lower the value of the BS glyph by 20%. At the same time, the set bonus increases the value of the Vendetta glyph by 30%.
Using the numbers from my own profile, that would put the BS glyph at 435 DPS and the Vendetta glyph at 409 DPS, thus making the glyphs close enough that the difference is not statistically significant.

#25 Shadefoot

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 03:37 PM

From a Combat point of view, both the 2pc and 4pc bonus seem OK on their own but, if they're active together, isn't that going to cause us enormous energy capping issues? Either bonus on its own seems just about manageable without significant capping worries but the two combined just seems a little crazy.

#26 Arakas

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:36 PM

I'm not amazed by their choice of wording for the 2-pc bonus. Once the PTR is up and running, it'll become pretty obvious how it really works, but I initially read 'triggering' in the bonus as a bit different than 'activating' in our current T12 bonus :

"After triggering Tricks of the Trade, your abilities cost 20% less energy for 6 sec."

I initially read this as meaning: For 6 seconds after you push the Tricks button (regardless of whether you've hit a mob and applied Tricks to your friendly target), you get 20% less energy costs. Meaning that I'd lose whatever time I spent crossing the floor to engage, or swapping to adds, or reengaging the boss.

Not a huge factor, even if it is the case. But I wish they'd use more standardized language.

#27 liftir

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:59 PM

I interpret "After triggering" to mean after the first hit and the 6 seconds of threat redirection is started. T12 is worded "Your Tricks of the Trade ability also causes you.." where the stat bonus is applied directly after casting tricks regardless of when it's activated. So it would stand to reason that by Blizzard adding a condition in the description for t134p, they intend to have the 4p bonus start when threat redirection does. Of course spell/effect descriptions haven't always been very clear, but this Seems to line up nicely, 6 second duration on both Tricks and the 4p bonus.

#28 Masoa

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:05 PM

Current firelands BiS trinkets tend to stack double proc haste for combat; perhaps there will not be haste buffing trinkets that sim out to be the new BiS come 4.3 raids. If this turns out to be case, the argument that combat will have serious haste capping issue will be lessened.

#29 Speaker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:14 PM

Rogue

Combat
Backstab: Backstab the target, causing 200% weapon damage plus 690 (1380:old) to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo point.
Fan of Knives: Instant (cast: Tooltip change)

Assassination
Ambush: Ambush the target, causing 190% weapon damage plus 697.3 (1325: old) to the target (275% plus 1009 (1917: old) if a dagger is equipped). Must be stealthed and behind the target. Awards 2 combo points.
Deadly Throw: Instant (cast: Tooltip change)
Mutilate: Instantly attacks with both weapons for 179% (150%: old) weapon damage plus an additional 201 with each weapon. (Damage is increased by 20% against Poisoned targets.: Removed) Awards 2 combo points.
Mutilate: Instantly attacks with both weapons for 179% (150%: old) weapon damage plus an additional 201 with each weapon. (Damage is increased by 20% against Poisoned targets.: Removed) Awards 2 combo points.
Mutilate Off-Hand: Instantly attacks with both weapons for 179% (150%: old) weapon damage plus an additional 201 with each weapon. (Damage is increased by 20% against Poisoned targets.: Removed) Awards 2 combo points.

Subtlety
Sinister Calling: Increases your total Agility by 30% and increases the percentage damage bonus of Backstab and Hemorrhage by (an additional: Tooltip change) 40%.
Shadow Dance: Enter the Shadow Dance for 6 sec, allowing the use of Sap, Garrote, Ambush, Cheap Shot, Premeditation, Pick Pocket, (Pickpocket: Tooltip change) and Disarm Trap regardless of being stealthed.

Trueshot Aura: Increases the attack power by 20% and ranged attack power by 10% of party and raid members within 100 yards. yards by 10%. (10% more melee AP, same ranged AP)
Same change with Abomination's Might, Blessing of Might, and Unleashed Rage.

#30 Wrekk89

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:17 PM

Never said it was useless, but with Vendetta being such a long lasting debuff it's not always as useful as dance or AR. Yeah you still get some of the bonus on a fight like Ryolith, but the bonuses to AR and ShD are better because they stay with you even when you switch targets.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that mutilate is gonna get screwed unless there's a lot of fights where we can stick on 1 target for 39 seconds at a time.


Seeing as they are buffing melee to compensate so that we don't fall behind in the new raid, it seems Blizzard is hinting that mechanics will not favor melee dps. I'm taking this to mean lower dps up time. Time will tell I suppose. But if that's the case, the bonus becomes a lot worse for Assassination.

#31 Aldriana

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:24 PM

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Backstab and Ambush "nerfs" are just tooltip changes. I can't help but notice that the difference between the "new" and "old" tooltips is exactly the same as the percentage damage bonus of the ability - i.e., 1.9 * (Weapon Damage + 697.3) = 1.9 * Weapon Damage + 1325. My guess is that they're storing the damage calculation a little differently but the actual damage done is not changing, which would mean the only real change here is removing the poison requirement from Mutilate.

I could be wrong, of course, but at the very least I wouldn't read too much into the "nerf" until we have a chance to test it on PTR and see if anything has actually changed.

#32 Armanewb

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:31 PM

There's a 10% increase to melee AP nestled in the Trueshot/Abomination's Might/Blessing of Might/Unleashed Rage changes as well, which might have flown under the radar.

Trueshot Aura: Increases the attack power by 20% and ranged attack power by 10% of party and raid members within 100 yards. yards by 10%.
Blessing of Might: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing attack power by 20% 10% and restoring 326 mana every 5 seconds for 1 hour. If target is in your party or raid, all party and raid members will be affected. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
Abomination's Might: Increases attack power by 20% and ranged the attack power by 10% of party and raid members within 100 yards. Also increases your total Strength by 2%.
Unleashed Rage: Increases your expertise by 8, and increases all party and raid members' attack power by 20% and ranged attack power by 10% while within 100 yards of the Shaman.



#33 Ashvael

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:27 PM

Current set pieces with secondary stats:

Blackfang Battleweave Helmet: Crit / Haste
Blackfang Battleweave Spaulders: Haste / Mastery
Blackfang Battleweave Tunic: Mastery / Haste
Blackfang Battleweave Gloves: Expertise / Hit
Blackfang Battleweave Legguards: Crit / Hit

#34 Antiarc

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:36 PM

In looking at how Shadowcraft models Backstab and Ambush, I'm a little curious --

bs_bonus_dmg_values = {80:310, 81:317, 82:324, 83:331, 84:338, 85:345}
damage = percentage_damage_bonus * (weapon_damage + self.bs_bonus_dmg)

This means that you'd get:

2 * (weapon + 345)

When the calculation should be:

2 * (weapon + 690)

No? Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Shadowcraft seems like it undervalues Backstab and Ambush as it currently exists.
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#35 Crevan

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:41 PM

Also of note are the sockets for tier13:
Helm - 1 red, 1 meta
Shoulders - 1 red, 1 yellow
Chest - 3 red
Gloves - 1 red
Legs - 2 red, 1 yellow

There are also non-set helm (mastery/exp), gloves (haste/crit), legs (mastery/haste, only 2 sockets), and shoulders (haste/crit, 2 red sockets). The extra sockets on tier legs and chest could make them superior to other options.

Full list of data mined items here: Patch 4.3 Items

#36 Aldriana

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:48 PM

In looking at how Shadowcraft models Backstab and Ambush, I'm a little curious --

bs_bonus_dmg_values = {80:310, 81:317, 82:324, 83:331, 84:338, 85:345}
damage = percentage_damage_bonus * (weapon_damage + self.bs_bonus_dmg)

This means that you'd get:

2 * (weapon + 345)

When the calculation should be:

2 * (weapon + 690)

No? Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Shadowcraft seems like it undervalues Backstab and Ambush as it currently exists.


Its probably worth testing in-game, but looking through old posts in the mechanics testing thread (for instance, this one) it appears ShadowCraft is modeling things consistent with how things worked during PTR, which also appears consistent with the new tooltips. So I'm sort of wondering where the "old" tooltip values came from.

That said: I did notice earlier this afternoon that the Eviscerate damage values are different than what's reflected on wowhead, and while that doesn't necessarily mean its wrong, it does make me curious where some of those values came from, and I admit I don't know in most cases. So it is possible that ShadowCraft has some minor glitches here and there, but I don't believe Ambush/Backstab are among them.

#37 Antiarc

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 11:57 PM

I'm doing some testing right now (no talents, no AP procs), and what I'm getting doesn't seem to be consistent with the tooltips in-game. I'm testing on the level 60 dummy.

Backstab: 3025
Target mitigation (tested with Gouge): 2180 / 2491 = 0.8751505419510237

Unmitigated Backstab: 3025 / 0.8751505419510237 = 3,456
Weapon damage: 1137-1144

Expected damage: 2 * weapon + 1380
3654-3668
Expected damage: 2 * (weapon + 690)
3654-3668
Expected damage: 2 * (weapon + 345) == 2964-2978

Unless I'm mistaken about the armor value, something's wrong here.
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#38 nextormento

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:04 AM

Weapon strikes are of the form
wepon_modifiers * weapon damage + damage_constant

that is
2 * weapon + 690 = 2 * (weapon + 345)

The 345 comes from wowhead, which was a bit ahead in datamining when cata launched. The formula should be consistent with current 85 rogues (the 200% modifier is no longer the same for every level though, and that could use some changes).

#39 Antiarc

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:11 AM

I get that, but it doesn't match the in-game tooltip or the numbers I'm seeing on the dummy. Using the 2 ( weapon damage + 345 ) formula, I'd expect 500 damage less than I'm actually getting. Wowhead also reads as "345 * 200 / 100", which is 690, rather than the 345 currently in Shadowcraft.
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#40 Aldriana

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:12 AM

I'm doing some testing right now (no talents, no AP procs), and what I'm getting doesn't seem to be consistent with the tooltips in-game. I'm testing on the level 60 dummy.

Backstab: 3025
Target mitigation (tested with Gouge): 2180 / 2491 = 0.8751505419510237

Unmitigated Backstab: 3025 / 0.8751505419510237 = 3,456
Weapon damage: 1137-1144

Expected damage: 2 * weapon + 1380

3654-3668
Expected damage: 2 * (weapon + 690)
3654-3668
Expected damage: 2 * (weapon + 345) == 2964-2978

Unless I'm mistaken about the armor value, something's wrong here.


Could you post your AP and what dagger you're using? It'll make it a little easier to diagnose. But my first guess is that you forgot to normalize your weapon strikes for Backstab, as a 2491 premitigation Gouge requires AP in the ballpark of 11857, which should result in base weapon damage of at least 11857 * 1.7 / 14 = ~1440.




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