Jump to content


Photo

4.3 Changes Discussion


  • Please log in to reply
335 replies to this topic

#41 nextormento

nextormento

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 93 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:17 AM

wowhead lists (2 * weapon) + 345 * 2, which is still the same.
Could you post your AP? so we can check what's your normalized damage?

edit: nevermind this; I got beaten twice already

#42 Antiarc

Antiarc

    Still alive

  • Members
  • 1,444 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:26 AM

I had a MotW on me, which I've since removed, but here's the full rundown:

10782 AP
Dagger: Jambiya - Item - World of Warcraft (1.4 speed, 7-14 damage)
Dummy gouge: 2084
Gouge tooltip: 2381 (and the actual damage I get on a level 1 critter)
Char sheet weapon damage: 1085-1092
Backstab damage: 2911

I did indeed forget to normalize the strike (doh) and just used the character sheet weapon damage values. So, with those stats, I get 10782 * 1.7 / 14 = 1309 + [7-14] = 1,316 - 1,323 weapon damage, which is consistent with the 2 (weapon damage + 345) formula. So, my mistake there.

Now I'm really wondering where those tooltips came from, because they don't make any sense at all in the context of how this is actually working. The new tooltips seem to be consistent with the current behavior, though.
Need a Mumble server? I run MMO-Mumble for all your voice chat needs. | My rogue planning tool: Shadowcraft

#43 nextormento

nextormento

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 93 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:15 AM

I did notice earlier this afternoon that the Eviscerate damage values are different than what's reflected on wowhead.


Wowhead has a very noticeable bug related to those: when you move the slider to change the level, the values get shifted once you move back to 85 (this happens in more abilities, for instance envenom). I'm not entirely sure how we figured the values for ShadowCraft, but they seem to fit with those of when the slider has been moved; I recall writing the first batch before we implemented multi-level, but things have changed a lot ever since. MMO-Champion only lists the values for 85 and, last time I checked, they matched with the unshifted slider in wowhead, so I'm inclined to believe our values are the wrong ones.
edit: the formulas are here in mmo-c and here in wowhead. They're a lot different now and, so far, I wouldn't know which one is correct. Notably, the ones in wowhead look much closer to the way in which the old spreadsheets handled these.

Now, I don't think there's a fast way to check this in-game, other than using evis multiple times on a dummy until a value is found out of bounds of one of the scales (either in the minimum range, or the maximum and critical hit range). I suspect we should change those values, for they seem more safe, and possibly revise them all, but some serious testing should be done at some point.

#44 omnimon3000

omnimon3000

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:12 PM

What’s in it for me?
Rogues who succeed will receive a paired set of daggers that will become increasingly lethal as their bearer progresses along the legendary quest. At the height of their strength, they will be imbued with the vile essence of the Old Gods, as well as the maddened fury of the Black Dragonflight—bestowing great power upon their bearer. These powers include a stacking increase to Agility which builds until dark wings unfurl from the rogue’s back, removing the combo point cost and increasing damage of finishing moves for a short time. In addition, the wings which can be spread on command (with no combat benefit) to slow a rapid descent, allowing the rogue to slowly fall to the ground… or enact a little death from above! When it comes to dealing death, the Fangs of the Father promise legendary killing power to rogues of any specialization.
An incredible adventure and legendary rewards await. The future of all life on Azeroth hangs in the balance. Better get moving.
________________________________________________
Just posted a while ago. Discuss~

This would possibly increase the value of mastery as a subtlety rogue, as a raw finisher damage increase is good.
Although will likely cap you out in energy due to relentless strike.

I can see this also being extremely good as combat due to revealing strike + finisher combo. Or maybe not... cause if its just GCD limited... going all out finishers and going out of the proc with max energy would mean it would likely really beenfit Subtlety the most

#45 Crevan

Crevan

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 288 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:30 PM

Will be interesting to see how well can the proc be synchronised with Deep Insight. Also, a free parachute for non-engineers is also nice.

#46 Glytch

Glytch

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:37 PM

Assuming the dagger's effect treats all finishing moves as 5 point finishers would eviscerating in between envenoms (and ruptures) be optimal for assassination rogues? Or does the raw damage from envenom (not including the envenom buff) beat it out? There is also the risk of energy capping with continuous RS procs.

#47 jsz

jsz

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:42 PM

Somehow I doubt that we'll be able to just spam free 5 point Eviscerates or Envenoms, even for a short period of time. I'm wondering if we'll have to actually use the pre-Legendary daggers while building them up into their final form, or if we'll be free to take other drops until then.

#48 omnimon3000

omnimon3000

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:56 PM

Its supposed to be a legendary proc, it's probably as we are thinking it to be, free procs of Finishers. Thinking about it... eviscerates really don't hit that hard as Subtlety anyway, Only damages a bit more than backstab >_< and backstabs crit for a lot way more often.
The proc looks extremely weak compared to teragossa's wrath.

The only thing I'd be doing as subtlety with the combo point restriction is using finishers till energy caps out and continue using backstab once (alternating with finishers) SO that when the proc ends I am left with 100 energy while maximizing damage done >_<

Its a pretty bad legendary special effect to be honest :(

This may even favor Assassination as Envenom is quite a monster in damage.
Combat looks to be in good shape if you can time it with bandit's guile and there eviscerates are already stronger than their Sinester strike anyways.

#49 fierydemise

fierydemise

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 51 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:07 PM

Its supposed to be a legendary proc, it's probably as we are thinking it to be, free procs of Finishers. Thinking about it... eviscerates really don't hit that hard as Subtlety anyway, Only damages a bit more than backstab >_< and backstabs crit for a lot way more often.
The proc looks extremely weak compared to teragossa's wrath.

The only thing I'd be doing as subtlety with the combo point restriction is using finishers till energy caps out and continue using backstab once (alternating with finishers) SO that when the proc ends I am left with 100 energy while maximizing damage done >_<

Its a pretty bad legendary special effect to be honest :(

This may even favor Assassination as Envenom is quite a monster in damage.
Combat looks to be in good shape if you can time it with bandit's guile and there eviscerates are already stronger than their Sinester strike anyways.

Even outside of timing it with BG finisher spam is potentially very powerful for combat because of Restless blades. On the down side if it procced while AR is up it would impossible to avoid energy capping.

#50 Chult86

Chult86

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 122 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:18 PM

Even outside of timing it with BG finisher spam is potentially very powerful for combat because of Restless blades. On the down side if it procced while AR is up it would impossible to avoid energy capping.


It may not work with Restless Blades, since Restless Blades uses the CPs you currently have to calculate how many seconds to take off of the CD timers.

Depending on the Agility stacking, it could either be a great proc or complete trash, which it currently seems to be.
Rogue PoV Stream - US 1st - http://www.twitch.tv/ahdehl_bl MTWTh @ 8EST
http://www.bloodlegion.com

#51 Armanewb

Armanewb

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 84 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:18 PM

Even outside of timing it with BG finisher spam is potentially very powerful for combat because of Restless blades. On the down side if it procced while AR is up it would impossible to avoid energy capping.


You may or may not be correct here. If it removes the CP cost, would Restless Blades still treat them as "2 sec per combo point"? There are technically no combo points involved.

#52 Speaker

Speaker

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:19 PM

It's not a proc, so you could easily save your adrenaline rush until after the buff ended. You just wait for your stacks to cap, gain buff, evis spam, buff fades, then pop adrenaline rush.

#53 omnimon3000

omnimon3000

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:19 PM

I doubt it will work with restless blades though. It would be far too imbalanced if it did...
as the per-combo point requirement is sooo good.

Wait a minute, if it does not work with restless blades though it won't work with relentless strike and ergo will be an extremely bad proc for a legendary dagger.

maybe this is the fix for combat dps while using the legendary dagger?
even assuming its only a 6 s duration, that's 6 eviscerates which equate to a 60 s reduction on all cooldowns of a combat rogue.
Would it prove to be too good for a combat rogue?

EDIT:

ON ANOTHER side note... using tehse daggers in PvP would mean Kidney shotting Everything O_o

Ahhhh this would seem to prove far too imbalanced to PvP.


Yeah sorry stuid of me XD How about ruptures... wait tehy're stupidly weak anyways wahahahaha XD

#54 Armanewb

Armanewb

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 84 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:27 PM

This is pure speculation, but what if you interpreted the legendary as something that consumes all CP on the target if there are CP to consume (and has a zero energy cost), but otherwise assumed the finisher was 1CP if you had 0-1 CP on the target? This might shift the focus of the legendary to a) Pooling energy after a finisher by using your GCDs on free low damage finishers and B) when you have enough pooled you go to 5CP for a finisher that is boosted by the legendary's proc.

#55 Aldriana

Aldriana

    Mike Tyson

  • Moderators
  • 13,510 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:37 PM

I feel obligated to note that none of you who are decrying it as trash have actually done any analysis to show that. You've just made some assumptions about how it works, and jumped straight to concluding its bad. I realize that all discussion at this stage is by necessity somewhat speculative, and I don't want to discourage discussion of what the various implications of the mechanics are; but we still need to base that discussion in actual analysis and logic. Making a statement like "its trash because it probably won't work with Restless Blades" is, frankly, pretty damn stupid. If you'd like to work out estimates on how much it does (or doesn't) increase your DPS based on various assumptions on how it works, I'd love to see them. But the value judgements that aren't accompanied by any sort of numbers or reasonable comparison to existing mechanics need to stop. And they will stop. One way or another. You have been warned.

#56 liftir

liftir

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 82 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:55 PM

The only thing I'd be doing as subtlety with the combo point restriction is using finishers till energy caps out and continue using backstab once (alternating with finishers) SO that when the proc ends I am left with 100 energy while maximizing damage done >_<


You are overlooking the "increasing damage of finishers" part in the description of the proc. Assuming it's a high enough value, it will almost certainly be worth spamming Eviscerate every second for the duration of the buff, as opposed to Backstab.

I am curious if the proc removes the combo point cost for non-damaging finishers (SnD/Recuperate) as well.. though if the damage bonus is anything worthwhile we most likely won't want to use a GCD during the proc for anything other than Eviscerate/Rupture/Envenom.

#57 Bonzoe

Bonzoe

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:58 PM

EDIT:

ON ANOTHER side note... using tehse daggers in PvP would mean Kidney shotting Everything O_o

Ahhhh this would seem to prove far too imbalanced to PvP.


Except that Kidney Shot has a 20 second CD.

#58 Aldriana

Aldriana

    Mike Tyson

  • Moderators
  • 13,510 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 06:11 PM

It seems to me that the simplest way of implementing a proc like the one they've described is to have finishers still require combo points, but not expend them - sort of like what Improved Expose Armor does. If you have 3 combo points on your target, you're doing 3 point finishers. If you have 5 combo points on your target, you're doing 5 point finishers. And because of this, I would expect Restless Blades and Relentless Strikes to apply normally. We'll have to work out the damage implications of this at some point in the future to see if that actually works out to be reasonable (and, of course, test the actual mechanics once we get our hands on the dagger - which will probably be a while), but it seems like a reasonable starting point to make some estimates on how powerful the proc might be.

Assuming this characterization is correct, the great advantage of the ability is not so much the fact that a finisher does more damage than a Mutilate, Sinister Strike, or Backstab; the great advantage is that finishers don't cost energy. An Assassination rogue gains roughly 14 energy per second and spends most of it on Mutilates that cost 55; hence, you get a Mutilate every 4 seconds or so, and an Envenom every ~1.5 Mutilates (hence every 6 seconds). But with the proc active, you're gaining 14 energy per second and spending 10; this allows you to do an Envenom on every single GCD while the buff is active. Its completely irrelevant whether an Envenom does more damage than a Mutilate (and it does - particularly since its stated that the proc will also buff finisher damage). The important piece is that you're getting over twice as many instant attacks per unit time, and probably finishing with more energy than you started with. So you can dump energy before the proc, fire off a bunch of Envenoms, and then dump energy again after. If that doesn't result in a significant increase of damage, I would be shocked.

In terms of a rough estimate of how much damage: well, on Baleroc last night my average Envenom was a bit over 34k damage, so if I can do one on every GCD my Envenoms alone will total 34k DPS - about what I do normally with all my attacks working together. Over the course of the fight my autoattacks, poison procs, and ruptures averaged about 21k DPS, and that's without 100% envenom uptime (which I would have during the legendary proc); hence, my damage during the proc is probably at least 55k DPS, and probably higher. Once you add in the finisher damage buff, I suspect we're talking close to double my regular DPS while its up.

Hence, even if its only up 10% of the time (that'd be a 6 second buff with a minute ICD), its still a 10% damage boost - and we haven't even accounted for the agility proc yet.

Obviously it won't necessarily be that strong - this is all speculative right now. But there's absolutely the potential for it to be a very powerful ability (on top of all the other cool toys the daggers give). It all comes down to tuning, in the end.

#59 Brotherbear

Brotherbear

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 138 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 06:47 PM

I'm interested in how the proc interacts with Rupture. Assuming the ticks adjust for the increased damage modifier, then casting a 5pt rupture right before the proc (with enough time to get back to 5cps) could prove pretty valuable. On the other hand, if the boost only applies to finishers that you cast during the buff, then it raises the question of if Subtlety can maintain a boosted rupture indefinitely.

Also I don't like the way this proc creates yet more pressure on combat rogues to spam buttons faster. Now we're in danger of energy capping during AR, KS, Hero/Bloodlust, *and* during the legendary proc. Given the likelihood that the legendary proc will be closely followed by KS/AR coming off of cooldown (due to restless blades) and it just seems like a massive headache of trying to figure out if it's less dps loss to energy cap and use cooldowns, or to delay cooldowns while you try to dump energy. And all of this is at much higher haste ratings as well.


Edit: Creates only has one r

#60 jsz

jsz

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:12 PM

If the proc works as we hope (5 point finishers), this could lead to some big Eviscerates for Combat. 5pt + Revealing Strike + Proc Finisher Buff + the stacking Agility




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users