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[Enhancement] 4.3 PTR - Spellpower deprived


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#21 Rouncer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 02:40 PM

Big question for anyone willing to do some testing while I am stuck at work is how that Flametongue 5% boost to non-physical damage interacts with Lava Lash. Considering we were able to double dip on Flametongue's spellpower it seems likely that this bonus would also stack* so running a low damage grey/white vender weapon in the offhand and seeing if there is a damage difference between lava lashes when running WF/FT and when running FT/FT should clear that up.

* checking that by seeing if there is any difference in flame shock direct damage when running WF/FT and FT/FT would also be helpful.

#22 SentinelBorg

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 02:41 PM

The new FT buff (7% when talented) also increases the damage of Lava Lash and Flametongue itself, so this also helps to regain any "lost" damage. Also not needing the SP buff can be an advantage in PvP and 10m raiding, where it may not always be around.

#23 Rouncer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 02:42 PM

The new FT buff (7% when talented) also increases the damage of Lava Lash and Flametongue itself, so this also helps to regain any "lost" damage. Also not needing the SP buff can be an advantage in PvP and 10m raiding, where it may not always be around.


Have you confirmed that on the PTR or is that supposition?

#24 aufy

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 03:57 PM

Have you confirmed that on the PTR or is that supposition?


1797 with FT on OffHand and WF MainHand
1922 with FT on OffHand and MainHand

FS direct dmg:
No FT: 2839
1 FT: 3038
2 FT: 3250
For FS ticks it is +7% dmg too

LL:
No FT: 2544
FT on MH: 2724

It is a 7% dmg increase per FT on FS, FT dmg, LL (With Elementals weapons 2/2)

[Edit] it is working with searing flames and fire totem too

#25 Rouncer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

I went home for lunch so did some testing myself with the same results. There is one other thing though that has to be a bug. The ICD for FT is no longer there and it's actually proccing more often then it should. I had 4 procs from a single sideways Stormstrike and I was getting double procs from some Lava Lashes as well. Seems like it might be proccing whenever we gain Primal Wisdom but in any case it has to be a bug.

#26 SentinelBorg

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:06 PM

I made a version of EnhSim with some of the PTR changes: https://rapidshare.c...ffnar_PTR43.zip
  • I removed all spellpower buffs as far as I can tell and changed MQ to 55%.
  • I also removed the spellpower bonus of FT and gave it a multiplicative 5% (7% talented) spelldamage bonus similar to Elemental Precision. Maybe additive would be the more correct implementation.
  • And I also removed the internal cooldown of FT.
Looking at the first results, FT/FT (with FT glyph) gains a small advantage over WF/FT (with WF glyph), but nothing major. If they put the cooldown back in and/or lower the damage of FT a bit, WF/FT will be back in the lead.

#27 darXtar

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 03:51 PM

I am torn between liking the pseudo-cleave and disliking an automatic AoE tied to two of our core single target DPS abilities.
In situations where single targeting is mandatory we would have to skip FS or the occasional LL, the numbers will tell which is the least evil.

Why not link it to Fire Nova?

We lose a GCD but also add mobility and quite bit more control...
[I can FS mobs being off tanked while continuing my queue on primary target]

#28 Rouncer

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:17 PM

I am torn between liking the pseudo-cleave and disliking an automatic AoE tied to two of our core single target DPS abilities.
In situations where single targeting is mandatory we would have to skip FS or the occasional LL, the numbers will tell which is the least evil.

Why not link it to Fire Nova?

We lose a GCD but also add mobility and quite bit more control...
[I can FS mobs being off tanked while continuing my queue on primary target]


Because that's not what Blizzard decided to do. There have been countless suggestions given on how to fix up our AE, many of them I like better then this one. None of that matters though since this is what they decided on.

The FS won't spread to targets already affected by FS or that are CCed, so get the CC out and then Lava Lash. As for why lava lash, they may like the challenge it presents to players rather then just hitting Fire Nova and it just happening. By attaching it to Lava Lash they force us to pay attention to the remaining duration of FS on targets before we hit Lava Lash since spreading around a Flame Shock with only a few seconds remaining would be a waste. I know many would like it if it spread a full duration Flame Shock for just that reason, I wouldn't mind that myself, but that may be their justification for why it doesn't.

#29 VileVoodoo

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:40 PM

I know many would like it if it spread a full duration Flame Shock for just that reason, I wouldn't mind that myself, but that may be their justification for why it doesn't.


Although i would love to have the full duration spread, I have found an ideal rotation when in an AOE situation as of right now on the PTR:

Fire Nova (If already spread to targets)
Flame Shock
Lava Lash
Unleash Elements (If not on cooldown, else more to Fire Nova)
Fire Nova

You will be replacing enhancement's standard priority of when you would Earth Shock with nothing but regular Flame Shock refreshes to allow maximum uptime of the Dot on the AOE targets around and allow for more Fire Novas empowered by Unleash when available.

#30 Waggles

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:57 PM

The ICD for FT is no longer there and it's actually proccing more often then it should. I had 4 procs from a single sideways Stormstrike and I was getting double procs from some Lava Lashes as well. . .


I never saw this while testing with FT on either the MH or the OH, but when I put FT on both weapons, every LL yielded 2 FT procs and every SS yielded 4 FT procs. Definitely a bug, but baffled as to the behavior behind it.

Other things I observed during a brief test of LL in various configurations:
  • The glyph is still multiplicative. However since the base is now 260% weapon damage, the tooltip correctly reflects glyphed damage as 312% normal weapon damage. Enjoy the little things.
  • I'm sure it's known, but I haven't seen it explicitly stated so far; the spell damage multiplier on FT works for all of our spells, not just fire.
  • The spell damage multipliers with 2x FT are multiplicative, not additive (14.5% v 14%)

Other things worth noting:
  • Stormstrike did not get changed to a player buff. It remains a target debuff.
  • Transferring to the PTR, my char did indeed lose 20 SP from the Int on +20 stats to chest.
  • Even with a 2H weapon, SS granted 2 charges of the fluid death buff. Probably not important, but worth noting nonetheless.


#31 Blackwood

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:01 PM

Not sure if I'm reading this right, but we're gaining 5% more SP from AP (MQ buff) plus an additional 5.5% from the 10% AP buff...but losing 6% SP from the mage buff and 10% SP from the ele shaman buff together with 2% from having to spec into reverb instead of precision...overall nerf? Or do the mage/ele buffs not stack? (I'm assuming SP debuffs like CoE etc. are unaffected as they're on the target not us)


The 6% spellpower from Arcane Brilliance or Flametongue Totem does not stack with the 10% buff from Totemic Wrath or Demonic Pact you just get whichever is the best benefit.

#32 Cochice

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:44 PM

I'm late to the PTR party, but I plan on testing this stuff if I get a chance this week. However, if anyone already has, please let me know.

Do we know yet the interaction between UE and the new LL? When it transfers the FS dot, does it transfer the base dot and the remaining duration, or will it transfer a UD'd FS? Or does the imp LL spread count as a new application, and will using UE before LL in a cleave situation be beneficial at all?

#33 Charybdis

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 08:13 AM

I never saw this while testing with FT on either the MH or the OH, but when I put FT on both weapons, every LL yielded 2 FT procs and every SS yielded 4 FT procs. Definitely a bug, but baffled as to the behavior behind it.


That behavior suggests a single hit procs both FT's, and a double hit a la SS procs them twice. My guess is they haven't yet added or fixed the code where it differentiates which weapon FT is on, if it's not intentional.

Spellpower buffs will no longer be relevant to Enhancement, if I read it correctly. Note the lines "Mental Quickness has been redesigned. Instead of granting the shaman spell power, Mental Quickness now causes Enhancement shaman spells to behave as though the shaman has spell power equal to 55% of attack power. Enhancement shaman spells no longer benefit from spell power from other sources."

Since the abilities are no longer affected by actual spellpower, it is extremely likely spellpower buffs won't have an effect on them.

As to the topic of repeating ability modifiers in different talent trees, keep in mind every paladin spec has a talent to reduce Avenging Wrath to 2 minutes. An enhancement talent to lower the CD would be most welcome, but it looks like they'd have to shuffle some talent effects around to make it work. However, they may very well add it to Seasoned Winds since SW is balanced around the short CD.

#34 Stopokingme

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 02:52 PM

I'm late to the PTR party, but I plan on testing this stuff if I get a chance this week. However, if anyone already has, please let me know.

Do we know yet the interaction between UE and the new LL? When it transfers the FS dot, does it transfer the base dot and the remaining duration, or will it transfer a UD'd FS? Or does the imp LL spread count as a new application, and will using UE before LL in a cleave situation be beneficial at all?


The quick testing I did on this showed that the spread Flame Shocks from Lava Lashes don't benefit from UE, tried both UE, FS, LL, and FS, UE, LL, both resulted in Flame Shock dots hitting for the base amount.
Enchantment?

#35 Rouncer

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 04:41 PM

That behavior suggests a single hit procs both FT's, and a double hit a la SS procs them twice. My guess is they haven't yet added or fixed the code where it differentiates which weapon FT is on, if it's not intentional.


It's the 0.15s ICD. They probably forgot to fill in the box for it when they applied the new spell sheet for flametongue. Flametongue works like windfury in that it checks both weapons on every melee hit, starting with the mainhand. That's why running WF/WF increases the proc chance per hit to 36%. It's also why when running FT/FT on the live server you will have MH FT procs when you stormstrike.

#36 Derpina

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:31 AM

It looks like (to me at least) that Haste is going to be a powerful stat for us in 4.3. How do you guys feel about that?

Enhancement, 2P -- While you have any stacks of Maelstrom Weapon, your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and healing spells deal 20% more healing or damage.
Enhancement, 4P -- Your Feral Spirits have a 45% chance to grant you a charge of Maelstrom Weapon each time they deal damage.

#37 Rouncer

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:45 AM

It looks like (to me at least) that Haste is going to be a powerful stat for us in 4.3. How do you guys feel about that?

Enhancement, 2P -- While you have any stacks of Maelstrom Weapon, your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and healing spells deal 20% more healing or damage.
Enhancement, 4P -- Your Feral Spirits have a 45% chance to grant you a charge of Maelstrom Weapon each time they deal damage.


Nothing to feel about since neither of those bonuses make haste a powerful stat and it will still be very weak in 4.3

edit - just to clarify, my conclusions are coming from the alpha version of EnhSim which has the T13 bonuses implemented. If you disagree with them and have math/facts to support your opinion, please post in the EnhSim thread in these forums to help make the sim better for everyone.

#38 Derpina

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:58 PM

Slorkuz(Dev): As we’ve discussed in the past, any time a class has a meaningful portion of its damage only receiving 50% bonus critical damage, it’s going to be difficult for crit rating to be an attractive stat. We’d certainly prefer if haste were a more attractive stat for Enhancement shaman. For many other melee classes, the great value of haste lies in its ability to increase resource generation. Enhancement shaman are not generally limited by any resource, so aside from more auto-attack damage and Windfury/Flametongue procs, haste currently yields more Maelstrom Weapon charges. We’ve thought about taking steps to make Maelstrom Weapon a more central mechanic for the Enhancement shaman spec, which would in turn make haste potentially much more valuable, but don’t currently have any firm solution to announce.

Ghostcrawler: No doubt when 4.3 goes live, there will be even more changes and some of the above will be modified or redacted. Part Two of this blog will explain our intent behind the final changes.

#39 Rouncer

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:57 PM

Slorkuz(Dev): As we’ve discussed in the past, any time a class has a meaningful portion of its damage only receiving 50% bonus critical damage, it’s going to be difficult for crit rating to be an attractive stat. We’d certainly prefer if haste were a more attractive stat for Enhancement shaman. For many other melee classes, the great value of haste lies in its ability to increase resource generation. Enhancement shaman are not generally limited by any resource, so aside from more auto-attack damage and Windfury/Flametongue procs, haste currently yields more Maelstrom Weapon charges. We’ve thought about taking steps to make Maelstrom Weapon a more central mechanic for the Enhancement shaman spec, which would in turn make haste potentially much more valuable, but don’t currently have any firm solution to announce.

Ghostcrawler: No doubt when 4.3 goes live, there will be even more changes and some of the above will be modified or redacted. Part Two of this blog will explain our intent behind the final changes.



Except those set bonuses won't dramatically increase the value of haste rating. Haste rating is pretty much a lost cause for us at this point without some dramatic changes. Only way to give it real value is to make it affect more passive sources of damage or to increase the damage value of current passive sources that it already affects. Passive sources because they have the highest transference of value. Meaning the most effective way to give haste rating value is to either significantly bump up the proportion of white/ft/wf damage or to let haste affect searing/magma totem. Anything else just shifts the values around a bit but won't do much more then that.

They would have more success looking at increasing the value of crit rating. That one is simple to bump up as it affects pretty much all of our damage. Take us to a 200% spell critical damage bonus and crit rating will end up much closer in value to mastery. That would also bump up the value of haste at the same time because it would push MW5_LB to our highest priority and that would have a positive effect on haste's value although it would still be our weakest stat by a heavy margin.

#40 Rouncer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 03:14 PM

The quick testing I did on this showed that the spread Flame Shocks from Lava Lashes don't benefit from UE, tried both UE, FS, LL, and FS, UE, LL, both resulted in Flame Shock dots hitting for the base amount.



I was playing around on the PTR and that behavior has changed. If you lava lash an "unleashed" flame shock (30% buffed from UE) it will spread "unleashed" flame shocks to all the other targets. If you UE and then follow with a LL nothing changes, the buff won't be consumed and it will just spread whatever type of flame shock was on the target of the LL.




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