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[Prot] 4.3 - Send me on my way


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#21 Wrathblood

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:05 PM

Sorry for the slow update, been under the weather for a few days so I'm putting in a bunch of corrections and updates from various folks now. In particular:

- Thanks for finding the quote, Eskostar. I still find it a little hard to believe they're going to go with a plan that will, in the long run, clearly make BS the best profession while also making JC clearly the best profession up until you get to that point, but the quote is pretty cut and dried, so I'll make some references to that fact.
- Bunch of changes suggested by Theck and others on the Rotation section (which I agree is probably the ugliest section atm) and some further changes to professions
- Not sure how I let that food error slip though but obviously I did, so that needs fixing
- Adding a quick blurb on the state of the t13 2 and 4 piece sets plus other 4.3 changes
- DonTirri, your point on the survival value of the J glyph is kind of interesting. I can't really focus on this right now, but if a J does 15k on average, or a 3750 shield with 2 piece, so the glyph would save you ~375 damage every 9 seconds, or about ~42 dps. Anyone know off the top of their head how many itemization points worth of Mastery it would take to save that much damage on a boss/difficulty/raid size of your choosing?

#22 Charybdis

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 03:58 AM

The amount of Mastery needed to negate ~42 DPS would be very small. We gain about .0125% block chance from a single Mastery rating, and every boss this tier has the capability of doing at least 50k hits before block. A block will negate 15k damage in that case. If we take a boss that swings every 2 seconds for 5 minutes, we get 150 attacks. Blocking a single one of these would mean negating 50 dps. To block one of those hits we'd need an extra .66_% block on average, or about 53 Mastery rating. Scale that down to negating ~42 DPS and we're at 39.28 Mastery rating.

In short, on a boss that does 50k damage every 2 seconds for 5 minutes, assuming Judgement's average hit is 15k, the glyph would equal 39.28 Mastery rating.

#23 Wrathblood

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 05:51 PM

I've added a short bit on the value of DS/HoP (I miss BoP) in conjunction with fixates, and I've also treaded into slightly dangerous territory by suggesting people start stacking Stamina once they hit block cap. Obviously, this is subject to serious potential revision once we see T13 fight mechanics, but I believe its probably currently the best policy.

If anyone feels they have a strong case for stacking Avoidance instead, I'd be curious to hear it.

#24 Guest_Aanvil_*

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:56 PM

Per the original cataclysm thread, cancelaura macros need to be reversed and require two clicks to achieve the desired result.

http://elitistjerks....p4/#post1825572

/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Divine Shield

and

/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast Divine Plea

Personnally, for Divine Plea I prefer to put the cancelaura part on my WoG macro so I don't accidentally cancel the free mana when i don't have to.

/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast Word of Glory

#25 Evilunclebill

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:11 AM

If anyone feels they have a strong case for stacking Avoidance instead, I'd be curious to hear it.


I think ill have to agree with you on the stamina part. With my gear, a soft mix of heroic and normal loot from firelands im almost at the 102.4%. (With buffs considered i would be by using elixir), with the next tier comming up I would get above that with a few upgrades.

Current stats:

15,99% dodge
15,33% parry
64,60% block
5% miss

= 100.92%

#26 saboya

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 12:46 PM

You should have as much Stamina as content requires IMO. I run with around 200k HP raid-buffed and that seems enough for any 10H encounter at least. 25H could use a bit more. It's relative to how much spike damage and how much room you want to give to your healers.

#27 Evilunclebill

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:45 PM

But then the question(s) rises;
- Go for stamina to ease the healers
- Start going for offensive abilities such as crit
- Get your TPS stats a boost

#28 saboya

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 05:36 PM

TPS = Irrelevant right now. Unless you're a 10M tank and has to help with DPS, it doesn't really matter.

It's alll about your healers and the encounters you're facing. If the healers have to move during a heavy damage situation, if you have enough cooldowns for most of the abilities... There's no magic formula.

#29 Theck

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:51 PM

I'd argue that Stam/EH is still superior to avoidance in almost all situations. There are three possible scenarios we could consider:

1) Able to be 2-shot (or less).
2) Able to take 3-5 melee hits without dying
3) Able to take 6+ melee hits without dying

Situation (1) favors EH pretty strongly. When you can be 2-shot, overall damage taken and healer mana conservation are the last things you'll be thinking about. That's a situation where you're EH-deficient, so your first goal would be to increase your EH so that you can't be 2-shot anymore, provided that's possible. Adding EH means you buy your healers time, potentially giving them another boss swing timer to work with and allowing them to queue smaller, mana-efficient heals when you're already at full health.

Brutallus is an extreme counter-example, but the environment has changed enough that he's no longer very relevant. Decimation Blade isn't a counter-example, because it's not possible to increase your EH against that attack with Stamina. In some sense, they both represent the same scenario though - one where you can't possibly increase EH enough to get "out of the hole," and have no other choice but to stack avoidance. They're the exception though, not the rule.

We don't need to guess at this either, we have historical precedent to go by. Think about the last time a paladin tank was seriously in danger of being 2-shot: it was in Wrath. Healers were spamming big heals to deal with the enormous throughput. And what did we stack? EH. Because that was the only way to prevent getting globaled.


Situation (2), which is the category that almost all tanks in Firelands would fall into, is where some people think that avoidance becomes preferable to stamina. I believe that they're wrong about that.

The usual argument is that it saves healer mana. In practice, I don't think that tanks stress healer mana very much at all. I've yet to see a healer resort to Divine Light (DL) or Flash of Light (FoL) spam to keep up with tank throughput damage. Usually it's a mixture of Holy Light and DL, modulated according to intake, and then FoL/DL/WoGs to recover from spikes. What saps healer mana, apart from avoidable damage (i.e. standing in fire, forgetting to use a cooldown) is reacting to those spikes by resorting to fast, inefficient heals to make sure the tank has enough health to survive the next melee.

Avoidance will reduce the frequency of spikes, of course, but the amount gained through trinkets, gems, and enchants isn't enough to make a large difference. Certainly not enough to change how your healers play, or how they react to you taking damage. Stamina is still the most effective tool we have for that, because the EH gain is measurable and large enough that your healers will notice. It buy them time to consider their next cast, and lets them forgo more of the the fast inefficient heals for slower, more efficient heals. In that sense, I think Stamina is far more effective at saving healer mana than avoidance is, at least in the 3-4 hit situation. 10-20k health will make a far more noticeable difference in how they play than 2-3% avoidance would.

Some people also believe that EH is only useful in this scenario if it lets you reach a new "threshold," meaning that you can now survive N+1 boss attacks instead of N. I think they're wrong about that too.

Most of my deaths aren't from being 2-shot. Nor are they due to the healer not being able to keep up with boss throughput while standing and spamming big heals. They happen when an encounter mechanic forces an interruption in the healing stream; for example, the healer has to move, and I don't get enough direct healing to keep me alive through 3-5 damage events (boss attacks, DoTs, whatever). In that situation, the concept of "more EH than N attacks" is sort of muddy. Attack sizes vary, and you'll be receiving a variable amount of healing from your non-moving healers, HoTs, and absorbs. So the net damage and healing you receive is variable enough that the waters between 3 hits and 4 hits are muddied - it's entirely reasonable to die in a situation where you took "3.5 hits" worth of damage due to healing, absorbs, and variable hit sizes.

So adding 0.25 "hits" worth of EH isn't meaningless, even if you're going from 2-2.25 or 3-3.25 instead of 2.75-3. That said, the value of that extra 0.25 "hits" suffers from a sort of diminishing returns - once you can take 6 hits, you might be able to survive for 10+ seconds without heals. There are very few mechanics that will interrupt your healing stream for that long (though dead healers count!), which reduces the value of adding more EH. It's still nonzero, but because the event is so rare it's less effective.


Which brings us to Situation (3). This is where I think avoidance really comes into its own. Not because it's a situation where avoidance really shines, but because it's a situation where the diminishing returns on EH push it's value down. If the boss can't kill you in 6 or more melee swings (which may be ~10 seconds without healing, an absurdly long time), you've got little incentive to stretch that time window any longer, so why not beef up your avoidance?

Unfortunately, it's also where the boss starts becoming trivial. If the boss can't kill you in 10 seconds, then he doesn't hit hard enough to test your survivability. And most tanks will start wearing DPS trinkets or putting on 2-piece Ret gear for lulz at that point. The relevant comparison would be a heroic Firelands tank wearing DPS gear for a troll heroic, or maybe a weak normal-mode T11 boss.


So in summary, the one situation where avoidance really does match or exceed stamina in survivability value is the trivial situation, where the boss isn't dangerous on short time scales. That shouldn't be surprising, in fact - the entire triage model was initially built around the concept that tank death would not occur due to spikes, but because healers ran out of mana over the course of an encounter. That scenario - low chance of spike death but noticeable time-averaged damage intake - is exactly situation 3, the weak-hitting boss that hits frequently. And that's how you make avoidance valuable: by making time-averaged damage intake a relevant metric.

Unfortunately, that's not how things played out. Meloree has pointed out in the past that healer mana regen scaled a lot faster than it should have, and that led to the current situation where tank throughput doesn't end up being a consideration. Overall damage taken at the end of an encounter hasn't mattered since early T11. And making it a factor, either by nerfing regen or modifying the boss damage and swing timer to smooth damage profiles, would run the risk of making things worse (for us, at least). In the scenario where tank throughput matters, but spike damage doesn't, the tank with the most self-healing becomes more attractive. And that's not us, it's DK's.

To be fair, I don't think the system is bad the way it is. The choices we're debating here might only affect the outcome of an encounter 1% of the time, and may even depend on the exact relationship between the tank and his or her healing team. But I do think it relegates avoidance to the role of "second class citizen," and that we should recognize the limitations of avoidance that come out of this model.

#30 Evilunclebill

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:29 AM

I dont agree with you there. Even though avoidance is percentage based and stam isnt id still prefer to avoid the damage instead of having more than enough health to take it. Damage is damage and the healers have to heal that damage up. They wont have to when you avoid the melee swings.

The example of baleroc; With my avoidance i dont get hit by each decimate blade in fact there has been decimation blades where i didnt take any damage at all!

I think stacking stam above avoidance is just even more stress to the healers. You have more health they will have to heal up.

Im doing a "mix", Im now at the 102,4% (maybe .something above) and when im fully raid buffed ive got 210,7k health. Through entire firelands I honestly havent felt like i didnt have the hitpoints to go through a boss fight.


EDIT: I do however agree that you have to be above a specific point, but i havent been below that yet i havent been gemming for stamina untill now (because ive reached the 102,4%)

#31 saboya

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:01 AM

Well, if you didn't agree with him you would have been gearing for avoidance once you reach full CTC, instead of stacking Stamina.

And there's a big difference between 10s and 25s regarding tank healing, and Stamina stacking is much more important on 25s. Healers need that extra room.

#32 Evilunclebill

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:46 AM

I might have misunderstood his post then, cause totally agree that now that i have reached CTC cap im going for stamina and little by little reforging block to avoidance once the gear i obtain allow me to.

What i understood was that he meant stam/EH was superior to avoidance and block PRE-CTC-cap. My mistake then.

#33 Theck

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 02:04 PM

What i understood was that he meant stam/EH was superior to avoidance and block PRE-CTC-cap. My mistake then.


No, that's certainly not what I meant (note that mastery/block isn't avoidance). My comments were only discussing options post-CTC cap. Keep in mind that reaching block-cap is a massive increase to physical EH, because you guarantee that you'll shave 30% off of every melee attack. The fact that you will never, ever take a full-sized hit is huge, and the best way to interpret it is as a giant EH gain.

So from one perspective, the overall point is still valid. EH is stronger than avoidance (but not mastery/block!) below the block-cap. We stack mastery because it smooths the damage profile and we get a large EH gain by reaching the cap. In that sense, it performs a similar function to EH - it buys the healer time to react. It's muddy water, for sure, because the RNG aspect of block below the cap makes it strictly incorrect to call mastery an EH stat. But that's because the fundamental question isn't "does X increase EH or not," but "what does X do to my survivability." EH does that by giving healers more time to react and more wiggle room for mistakes, and mastery does something very similar.

One way to look at it is as part of a continuum. EH is the passive, always-on but low-magnitude effect. Avoidance is the random, low-probability but large-magnitude effect. Mastery falls somewhere in the middle, since it has a higher probability than avoidance (per itemization point) but a lower-magnitude.

#34 Wrathblood

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:12 PM

Sort of an academic point, but one that I find analytically interesting is that block-capping/getting full CTC coverage/whatever you want to call it, is a bit net plus to EH (we can quibble over how much, but lets say 40%).

This is relevant, because when you're under block-cap, you stack mastery but, failing that, you generally stack Avoidance over Stamina, even if its not enough to get you to the cap. Which suggests Avoidance > Stamina.

But once you cap, you get a big bump to EH, which is basically Stamina. So, post-capping, Stamina is now worth 1.4X what it was pre-capping. And magically, once you cap, as Theck so eloquently stated above, you want to start stacking Stamina, which suggests that Stamina > Avoidance.

Those of us who like to quantify things would take this to suggest that the hierarchy should go something like Stamina < Avoidance < Stamina x 1.4, which I think is kind of interesting.

#35 Theck

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 01:48 PM

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Your expression suggests that as you cross the block-cap threshold the value of stamina changes but the value of avoidance stays the same. While the value of stamina does change, I think that's the less significant effect. The notable thing is that the value of avoidance changes drastically when crossing that threshold.

The reasoning behind favoring avoidance below block-cap isn't that stamina is weak and avoidance is strong; it's that the avoidance contributes to an EH goal. Again, it's a bit of a fuzzy territory, because chunks of 10 avoidance rating that don't cap you don't contribute EH directly. But the combined effect of thousands of avoidance rating once you reach block cap does contribute to EH. So the appeal of avoidance below cap is in its "average" or "projected" EH contribution in the final state (block-capped).

In other words, rather than saying,

Stamina<Avoidance<Stamina*1.4

I think we should be saying,

Avoidance (above cap) < Stamina (below cap) < Stamina (above cap) < Avoidance (below cap).

because it's the value of avoidance that's changing more drastically than the value of stamina at that block-cap discontinuity.

Another way to state it is that it's still the general rule of EH>Avoidance, but dodge and parry are providing a non-trivial amount of projected EH below cap, making them more attractive than usual.

In fact, I think you could make an argument that stamina is still stronger than avoidance before the cap if we consider the system in a vacuum where block-cap isn't immediately attainable (and thus, you don't include the projected EH benefits of pre-cap avoidance in the evaluation). If the X avoidance rating you can get by gemming/enchanting doesn't get you to block-cap, then you're probably going to be more survivable by converting all X of that fluid avoidance into Stamina (provided you can't put it in mastery, of course). Once X gets large enough that you can reach block-cap, you would then shift all of it back to avoidance to reach cap.

I think the reason most people didn't do this in T11 is multi-faceted. For one thing it's easier to gauge how close you are to cap when you're kitted out to max CTC, and there weren't many convenient tools for determining whether you were there or not. And to be fair, the entire community went on a bit of a CTC kick early on in the expansion, because the encounters were generally well-tuned within the triage model of 5-6 hits mattering. And the "difficult" hard modes has a pretty significant amount of magical burst, at least for certain roles (HNef, HChogall, Sinestra primarily). But I do recall that at the beginning of hard modes, a lot of tanks shifted back to Stamina, presumably because of a combination of those factors.

#36 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 02:51 PM

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure I buy that for three reasons.

First, if blockcapping is completely unachieveable (like it was in early t11, for example) saying that stamina is more valuable than avoidance, but less valuable than mastery assigns it a very narrow range of values, because Mastery was only perhaps 10-12% better than avoidance at reducing damage during that period. I don't think we have the value of Stamina narrowed down well enough to say that.

Second, when you block cap, you get a huge boost to your EH, which means your Stam suddenly gets a lot more valuable. I recognize that its not a complete binary process. Going from, say, 95% CTC coverage to 98% CTC coverage in theory doesn't impact EH one bit, but in practice you probably do start accruing some of the benefit once you get close. If going from 102.3% to 102.4% gives you a 30% boost to EH (with the other 10% or whatever slowly gained as you got close), then that means Stamina just got 30% more valuable. The 10% EH gain (or whatever) you gain as you get CLOSE to full coverage has to be embedded in the value of those thousands of points of Mastery and Avoidance. Its the value gained from getting more stability in your damage taken.

So, for the value of Avoidance to drop by a great degree than Stamina goes up, you'd have to gain more than half the value of being block capped during the actual run-up to block capping, right? And I don't think that happens. I think we gain some, but not that much.

Finally, Warriors are just now able to block cap when wearing near BiS gear and using dual mastery trinkets, and I believe their Mastery is very roughly in the same ballpark, value-wise, as ours, which would suggest that they should have been stacking Stamina up to this point. But I don't think they have been.

#37 Theck

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:41 PM

First, if blockcapping is completely unachieveable (like it was in early t11, for example) saying that stamina is more valuable than avoidance, but less valuable than mastery assigns it a very narrow range of values, because Mastery was only perhaps 10-12% better than avoidance at reducing damage during that period. I don't think we have the value of Stamina narrowed down well enough to say that.


But that argument is based on "reducing damage" being a meaningful metric. And I don't think many of us believe it is, or ever has been for raiding. It might've been for heroics early on, where you were in the 6+ hit range and your healer's mana was shared between you and 3 DPS, some of which may have been habitual about standing in fire. But the spirit scaling that occured with just a few pieces of T11 gear nullified that as a concern in most progression raiding.

The metric we actually care about is, "what keeps me alive better." That's much more complicated, because now it includes the healer's play style, the expected damage profile, the possible failure modes, and so on. Still, we have a general feel for how that all works. Most stat weightings for prot value mastery 2-3x more than dodge/parry after DR is accounted for, not because it's 2-3x as good at mitigating damage (it isn't), but because it's much better at smoothing that damage out and making you easier to heal, which is a big increase to your survivability.


Second, when you block cap, you get a huge boost to your EH, which means your Stam suddenly gets a lot more valuable.


I disagree with that statement. Reaching block cap gives you a huge boost to your EH, for sure. I don't think that causes a similar jump in value for Stamina. Certainly, each point of stamina is more valuable relative to boss hit size at that point, because the max boss hit size dropped. But thinking in terms of EH thresholds, you've also just shifted from a situation of being able to survive 3 hits to 4 hits (or 3.5 to 4.5, or whatever). So the diminishing returns aspect of Stamina that we talked about earlier has to be considered. If reaching block cap means you can survive 6 hits instead of 5, does that make stamina even more attractive? What about 8 instead of 7?

I'd argue that the diminishing returns effect more or less negates the increase in the "EH granted to boss hit size ratio." Each point of stamina may give you more EH relative to the boss's attack size, but you also need that EH less when you reach block cap than when you couldn't. Subsequently, Stamina doesn't see a large increase (though perhaps a small one, hence why I chose below<above instead of below=above in my ordering) in overall survivability value, even though it gets a 30-40% relative EH boost.

I recognize that its not a complete binary process. Going from, say, 95% CTC coverage to 98% CTC coverage in theory doesn't impact EH one bit, but in practice you probably do start accruing some of the benefit once you get close. If going from 102.3% to 102.4% gives you a 30% boost to EH (with the other 10% or whatever slowly gained as you got close), then that means Stamina just got 30% more valuable. The 10% EH gain (or whatever) you gain as you get CLOSE to full coverage has to be embedded in the value of those thousands of points of Mastery and Avoidance. Its the value gained from getting more stability in your damage taken.

So, for the value of Avoidance to drop by a great degree than Stamina goes up, you'd have to gain more than half the value of being block capped during the actual run-up to block capping, right? And I don't think that happens. I think we gain some, but not that much.


Ignoring the "stam got 30% more valuable" part, which we disagree on, I think the agree that the valuation of avoidance needs to somehow incorporate that 40% EH increase you see at block cap. If you spread it evenly amongst every point of avoidance, even below the cap, then avoidance gives you three things:
1) Overall damage reduction (via avoided hits)
2) "Projected" Effective health (via approaching block cap)
3) Damage smoothing (by pushing more hit off the table and reducing the hit/block ratio).
My argument is that #2 and #3 are the big factors we care about that make avoidance attractive. Well over 50% of the "survivability" value we give avoidance, in my mind, comes from those two. The first isn't that important to us at all in current content. But when you reach block cap, more avoidance no longer gives you #2 or #3, it just gives you the minor increase of #1. That's why I say that avoidance has the bigger discontinuity. Stamina might increase slightly in relative value after cap, but it's not increasing by 50%, it's probably less than 5-10% once the EH threshold DR effects are included. Avoidance, on the other hand, probably loses more than half it's value.

This ties into what I was saying about "working in a vacuum" too. If you work under the assumption that you can't reach block cap, then #2 drops out. You still get #3, and maybe the combination of #1 and #3 is enough to make avoidance comparable to stamina in that situation, but I'm not convinced of that fact. That's why I said you could make the argument for Stamina>Avoidance in that situation - it all depends on how much of avoidance's value you feel comes from #2 compared to #3, and how that compares to #1 (which I feel safe claiming that it is very low).

That said, it could be that in the absence of #2, avoidance and stam are more or less equivalent, at least within a couple percent in our vague, hand-wavy "survivability" metric. It's tough, if not impossible, to come up with concrete numbers on that metric, simply because there are so many variables to consider (boss hit size, frequency; healer play style, reaction time and type, and psychological factors; etc.).

Finally, Warriors are just now able to block cap when wearing near BiS gear and using dual mastery trinkets, and I believe their Mastery is very roughly in the same ballpark, value-wise, as ours, which would suggest that they should have been stacking Stamina up to this point. But I don't think they have been.


No. I never said anything about Stamina being better than mastery below cap. Just avoidance. I think it's entirely fair to say that below cap, mastery trumps stamina hands down. Why? Because of it's incredible damage smoothing potential, even for warriors (who get less "smoothness" than we do because of the lower mastery->block% conversion).

This just reinforces the point above: below cap, mastery gives you smoothness, which we deem so valuable that it trumps stamina, and a small amount of overall damage mitigation that we don't value as highly. Avoidance below cap gives you higher overall damage mitigation, but less smoothness (because that smoothness is due entirely to CTC, which it's worse at). When you remove the smoothness contribution from avoidance by reaching block cap, you see a huge discontinuity in its survivability value. The same is true of mastery, of course, because it has absolutely no value for us above cap.

So the salient point here is that the smoothness value is a big (and IMO the largest) factor in the value of avoidance as a survivability stat. If you accept that premise, then it should be clear why avoidance sees a large discontinuity in value when you cross block cap. My argument is that that discontinuity is the dominant effect, and that the value increase that Stamina sees is much smaller than the decrease avoidance suffers.

#38 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:32 PM

Intetesting post.

A couple thoughts. First,you're right, of course, that Stam doesn't get 40% more valuable, I was imprecise. It just gets 40% (or whatever) bigger, which retroactively bumps the Stam you've already got to a point 40% higher up the "stam dr" curve which will vary from boss to boss.
Second, aren't 2 and 3 really the same thing? The damage smoothing you get IS the partial value of the EH boost gained from block capping.

So, when you say Stam gets a 5-10% bump, do you mean each marginal point gets that much or Stam in general only gets that? Because they imply very different things about how you see dr affecting stam. In particular, if you mean total stam, then that says you think block capping is only worth 10% of stam, which can't possibly be right.

Finally, I do agree that reducing damage taken is less valuable than the smoothing, but I dont agree that its virtually worthless, otherwise we'd see people running around in Mastery/resilience pvp pieces. I think our disagreement is over the magnitude. Also, re: warriors, I think I misread what you said, thinking you meant stam could even surpass mastery when blockcapping wasnt available, but I see now thats not what you meant.

#39 Theck

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:07 PM

That's a good question. I think that #2 and #3 certainly come from the same source, so you could potentially lump them together. The difference I was trying to highlight was that you may not ascribe the partial EH value to it in situations where block-capping isn't possible. This really only affects weakly-geared tanks right now, but it may be a relevant issue if they tweak mastery in some way that makes block-capping impossible (not likely till the next expansion, in my mind).

When I said "5-10%," I was talking about stamina in general, I think. Reaching block cap puts a discontinuity in the value of stamina, but it's tempered by the pseudo-DR effect. In other words, reaching block cap gives stamina a 40% bump in EH value, but it also raises your EH significantly (and again, discontinuously), which means you get less returns from the stamina you have. I can't put exact values on that effect, of course, but I was trying to suggest that it counter-acts a significant portion of the 40% EH benefit.

Another way to look at it is to consider a special case: Let's say you have enough Stamina/EH to survive 7 boss attacks, below block cap. Now you add a little mastery and reach block cap, and you can survive 10 boss attacks. That's deep into the DR regime, presumably - maybe the EH check for the fight is nominally only 5 attacks or so. I'd argue that reaching block-cap actually devalues stamina in that situation, because the DR effect is actually more important than the EH boost. If those numbers are too realistic for you, expand them up to 14 attacks (pre-block cap) and 20 attacks (post-block cap), with the same 5-attack boss. You're way above the EH threshold for the fight, so the excess stamina isn't very valuable.

Note that I don't think we're in that situation at all - it's just an exaggeration to make the point. But I do think that its' enough to cut that 40% increase down by a good bit.

You're right that it's not fair to call avoidance worthless, though people have discussed using mastery/resil gear in the past (when it was harder to reach block-cap). But I do think it's weak enough that we would gladly trade it for an equal (or in some cases, even a lesser) itemization of stamina. I think the best example might be an item with a red socket and a 20 parry socket bonus. Given the option between (40 parry + 30 stamina) and skipping the socket bonus for a flat 60 stamina, I think a lot of people would be inclined to take the stamina.

#40 Garantio

Garantio

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:14 AM

Theck, I can't skip the chance to thank you for all the info and analysis I got from you...

I have a question tho: when you speak about "number of attacks", you most likely think about a specific boss. What would be your suggestion of a good stamina soft-cap (i.e. 6 attacks like you said) for a protadin working in semi-HM FL10. I just recently hit the block cap and I really do wonder how far is it reasonable to go with stamina.




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