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[Prot] 4.3 - Send me on my way


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#41 Theck

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:27 PM

I don't really have any particular boss in mind; for EH things I generally think of a generic Patchwerk-style fight. In addition, from what I've seen 10H is far less demanding than 25H in terms of tank gearing; where a 25-man tank might struggle to cover 3-4 hits from some of the harder heroic bosses, a 10H tank is likely comfortably at 5 hits. This is primarily due to healer throughput being more limited in 10's, I'd imagine, but it does change the way a tank perceives the encounter.

I'd guess that 6-7 hits is probably a reasonable threshold point for 10H. I think that's still going to be around 220k HP or more though.

#42 Guest_ags118_*

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:02 PM

Very interesting discussion and you are all very sophisticated in your analysis, which is impressive. As a casual player, I do have a couple of questions. First: When I am unbuffed I am under the block cap, but fully buffed with elixers (mastery + magic), then I am over the cap. Should I be reaching the cap without the buffs and elixers before I consider reforging into something other then mastery? Second: I seem to have issues with threat primarily on Rag with the other tank. I am the off spec tank and play with a DK, sometimes with a Druid tank. Occasionally it is challenging to taunt Rag back, even with full HP for Shield and my taunts (Wings is sometimes available to help, but can be on cool down). I especially have difficulty with Druid tanks. Any suggestions? I was thinking it would be beneficial to start moving towards Expertise once block capped, but you guys aren't even mentioning it.

#43 Wrathblood

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:58 AM

Bunch of new changes included (macros, consumables, some formatting and other stuff), and I failed to be on the ball and rewrite the new and improved Rotation section, so instead I just stole it outright from Theck (though he did say it was ok).

Also, a reminder that the 5.0 stuff will end up getting its own thread, so while its interesting, any 5.0 changes should only be brought up if they're directly relevant to 4.3.

Ags118, I've sent you a response.

Edit - I've gotten a few PMs from people re: Ags118's question, so I'll very briefly lay it out here. 1) Shoot for blockcap with enduring buffs (food, elixirs, etc) but not procs, 2) its not your threat stats, its the other tank being bad. Tell them to remember how Vengeance works and watch threat on transitions.

#44 TehFran

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:16 PM

I found this macro to be of some use.

#showtooltip
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast Righteous Fury

It is helpful when an encounter requires tank swap a la Rag or Beth (not like Bale). I generate quite a bit of TPS, and if my off tank has issues with quickly peeling the boss off me during his taunt, I turn off my threat generation for several seconds for the price of a GCD.


I also run a glyphed Hand of Salvation, which essentially gives you a third taunt, except more rigid in that it allows you to help the other tank with taking stuff off people.

Should I be reaching the cap without the buffs and elixers

I'd be aiming for CTC under elixirs + kings. Not so much the other raid buffs, since there might be a situation where they aren't present.

#45 Raistlin212

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:54 PM

I'd be aiming for CTC under elixirs + kings. Not so much the other raid buffs, since there might be a situation where they aren't present.


The only other raid buff that affects CTC is the Str buff brought by Warriors, Shaman, and DKs. It's a very odd raid to include none of those 3 classes. I think it's safe to assume it will be present will making calculations, if it's not then have a talk with your raid leader.

#46 Vman1987

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:55 PM

From the Dev Q&A
Question:
"Is Word of Glory still going to be on a 20s CD for protection paladins? With the new active mitigation paradigm, it would seem "paladin-ish" to heal myself every time I can (or to choose a heal OR a holy shield)."

Answer:
"Word of Glory does not need a cooldown in 5.0. Prot can choose whether to use it for healing, Holy Shield for absorption, or Shield of the Righteous for block."

So there we have it, What we have all be waiting to hear. No more constant CTC and a flexible choice. Looks like in 5.0 we will be juggling mitigation/dps :). I guess by doing all out for as much mitigation as possible and having low DPS wont matter as the threat change means aggro wont be an issue.

#47 TehFran

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 04:00 PM

It's a very odd raid to include none of those 3 classes.


Range issues can occur. I found out that STR / AGI totem doesn't reach me on Sinestra (I tank on the left, the rest on the right), there's also a lot of running around far enough from melee in Rhyolith, different floors on Beth'tilac, ...

Just to be safe y'know. Once again: I raid in 10-man. In 25-man you should assume STR/AGI is always present.

#48 Fetzie

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 09:37 AM

Range issues can occur. I found out that STR / AGI totem doesn't reach me on Sinestra (I tank on the left, the rest on the right), there's also a lot of running around far enough from melee in Rhyolith, different floors on Beth'tilac, ...


Don't forget that Hunter pets (specifically cats) also buff STR/AGI with a 100 yd range.

Are there any opinions on the weapon that drops off Madness of Deathwing?

#49 DonTirri

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:06 PM

Since PTR refuses to run without crashing if I enable any addons, I figured I'd ask here.
Has anyone been able to test the 2pc and whether Glyph of Judgement is as good as it seems on paper there?
With no logging addon, I'm basically stuck with a gut feeling and some quickly flashing number which make it hard to work out in a realistic raid setting.

#50 Oicx

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:57 PM

Considering we currently use 1 or 2 threat glyphs, and since our threat generation has been increased, I can't see why we'd run with SoR or HotR/CS glyphs when we can glyph for another increase in survival.

#51 Iroared

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:36 PM

Is there any up to date info on how the two rotations (with and without inq) compare on single target? I tried both, but its really hard to tell the difference between the two, since inq rotation is very sensitive to missed CS's (when you put up inq, but fail to get off a SotR during it). I do like seing 90k+ crits though.
Why I care? First of all, i'm playing in 10man, plus we've had an issue with pushing ragnaros phase 3 with one meteor for a while, so we had to max out all we could (I tried standing in fire on purpose). Second, there are fights where it simply gets too boring if you stop worrying about your damage (cough baleroc).

I also find major glyph choice to be pretty tight on some encounters. E.g. on rag I'm forced to use divine protection, holy wrath (probably not needed anymore), focused shield for more DPS. This sometimes leaves me out of mana in below 20% phases, and doesn't leave space for utility like salvation (which would be very nice for kiting the boss when roots are wasted by mistake).

#52 gnumme

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:23 AM

Could u please give me an advice about new T13 tanking trinkets? Need to choose 2. I bet all the tanks would choose Indomitable Pride - Items - Sigrie? but what about the second? There is implemented very good trinket for all other tanking classes Soulshifter Vortex - Items - Sigrie, but prot paladins should be already block capped or nearly. So what should we choose? Get a trinket from old content, or use an awful trinket for dodge Resolve of Undying - Items - Sigrie, or change our gearing model to make the proc useful?

What will u choose?

#53 Raistlin212

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:30 AM

Is there any up to date info on how the two rotations (with and without inq) compare on single target?


Look up Theckd's work on maintankadin. He has more numbers than you can process in one setting regarding pretty much every permutation of rotation. These threads summarize the optimal rotation but if you want to know approximately how much dps you lose/gain with a combination of Inq he has tables upon tables of sim results.

#54 pindle

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:03 AM

Could u please give me an advice about new T13 tanking trinkets? Need to choose 2. I bet all the tanks would choose Indomitable Pride - Items - Sigrie? but what about the second? There is implemented very good trinket for all other tanking classes Soulshifter Vortex - Items - Sigrie, but prot paladins should be already block capped or nearly. So what should we choose? Get a trinket from old content, or use an awful trinket for dodge Resolve of Undying - Items - Sigrie, or change our gearing model to make the proc useful?

What will u choose?


Why is Resolve of Undying awful? It doesn't have an active use, I'll give you that, but 990 static dodge is just incredible from a trinket alone. I haven't been on the PTR yet but if the current trend continues, in which stam trinkets are pretty worthless for paladins (and one of them even procs mastery), it's best combined with the 1650 VP trinket.

#55 Theck

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:57 PM

Why is Resolve of Undying awful? It doesn't have an active use, I'll give you that, but 990 static dodge is just incredible from a trinket alone. I haven't been on the PTR yet but if the current trend continues, in which stam trinkets are pretty worthless for paladins (and one of them even procs mastery), it's best combined with the 1650 VP trinket.


I've argued (and many tanks agree with me) that stamina is more valuable than dodge/parry once you've reached block cap, at least in heroic modes where bosses actually hurt. And that's with a 1.5:1 itemization; in other words, most tanks would take 30 stamina over 20 or fewer dodge rating (and in many cases, would take 30 stamina over 30 or 40 dodge rating).

990 dodge rating is definitely a lot, but I'm not convinced it's actually better than 775 stamina if you're already hitting block cap. I wouldn't call it an awful trinket, but unless total damage reduction suddenly becomes important in Dragon Soul (unlikely), it's not very compelling either. Especially since one of the alternatives is Fire of the Deep, a mastery trinket with a nice dodge on-use clicky.

If tank death in Dragon Soul is anything like what I've seen in Firelands (short bursts of 2-4 damage events in 3-5 seconds), then I think the added EH of the stamina trinket is still going to be superior, despite the crappy proc.

#56 pindle

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:03 PM

The real bursts in damage intake are usually caused by boss hits coinciding (in most cases) with elemental damage, in which case avoidance is useless, I agree stamina will always be valuable for that alone. Firelands was pretty elemental damage heavy compared to earlier instances this expansion, so I'm guessing it boils down to how melee and elemental damage ratio's will turn out to be in Dragon Soul.

That being said, it doesn't hurt to try pick up an extra trinket for swapping around depending on the bossfight. Also, I think the stamina trinkets seem pretty weak. The mastery proc of Vortex as said by gnumme is useless for any FL geared paladin, and I'm not really sold on the 54% last attack damage shield from Indomitable Pride. As you said those attacks that bring you to 50% will often be a succession of multiple hits, if a 20k hit brings you below 50% you'll get a 10k shield, 10k dmg absorbed per minute. If that would have been a generously large Ragnaros 100k hit, that would make a 54k shield. That starts looking like something but it's not reliable enough to really make or break that much. Personally, I'd much prefer an avoidance clicky, but I may be nitpicking.

#57 Meloree

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:32 AM

The first trinket slot might as well be reserved for Mirror. We may use the VP trinket (reforged to dodge or parry) for fights without a use for Mirror's clicky, but you probably want to build your progression gear around having Mirror. The heroic trinket from Deathwing isn't really worth considering, because it won't be progression gear, so you're really talking about 880 dodge rating (unreforgeable dodge rating), which is probably not going to be a good swap.

The second trinket is either stamina or DPS, depending on the needs of the encounter. We don't need another mastery trinket, and can't use it. Indomitable Pride is clearly the better of the two high ilvl stamina trinkets, so the only question remaining is whether the unreliably sized shield plus 125 stamina is worth more than the controllable heal from Scales of Life. The answer is: It depends on how effectively you use the heal from Scales of Life.

#58 pindle

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:05 PM

The first trinket slot might as well be reserved for Mirror. We may use the VP trinket (reforged to dodge or parry) for fights without a use for Mirror's clicky, but you probably want to build your progression gear around having Mirror. The heroic trinket from Deathwing isn't really worth considering, because it won't be progression gear, so you're really talking about 880 dodge rating (unreforgeable dodge rating), which is probably not going to be a good swap.

The second trinket is either stamina or DPS, depending on the needs of the encounter. We don't need another mastery trinket, and can't use it. Indomitable Pride is clearly the better of the two high ilvl stamina trinkets, so the only question remaining is whether the unreliably sized shield plus 125 stamina is worth more than the controllable heal from Scales of Life. The answer is: It depends on how effectively you use the heal from Scales of Life.


Good one I'm still using it alot and 400 resistance for 10 sec on a 1 min CD is a major advantage in FL for alot of fights not sure why I didn't bring it up ;)
I'm not sure how other paladins are doing it, I just bound Scales to WoG. Coming from a DK I tend to react pretty quickly to sub-35% drops and just push WoG, wether Scales is up or not. On the other hand, not having motivated raiders and forfeiting on Raggy hc, I haven't used it once since and just stuck to my mastery reforged to avoidance trinkets as I feel for current content 200k+ raidbuffed is more than plenty.

#59 Wrathblood

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

Anyone test the proc on Souldrinker yet?

#60 Asphyxialol

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 05:48 PM

DPS reports for DKs are reflecting a 15% proc rate. I haven't seen any logs which reflect how it interacts with prot abilities yet, however any melee ability that hits appears to proc it for DKs.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

For us I guess that would be ~20 CS, ~22-24 melee, and possibly 7-8 Shields per minute in any given stand still fight (Ultraxion), or roughly 7.5 ppm (or for true ppm [60 / 2.6] * 0.15 = 3.46 ppm on melee - unbuffed, no talents, etc.). Figure 210,000 health * 1.5% = 3,150 damage * 2 * 1.06 = 6,678 healing. Or roughly 400 dps and 835 hps. Rough napkin math, obviously, and I'm not 100% positive it works with SotR, but it's probably safe to assume it would.




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