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[Prot] 4.3 - Send me on my way


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#101 Perkeyone

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 09:18 PM

Well that may be true for some paladins, but considering all the adds on this tier of content come out at very specific predictable times, I just have an avenger's shield ready for them when they spawn, or even use one of my 2 taunts. Theres never really been a time where I thought to myself "if only my judgement had longer range I coulda picked up those adds" after spending over 70 levels without the range boost.

#102 qhuck

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:49 AM

I thought your information very helpful. I am a new player and it seems I've been misinformed on how to play a prot paladin. Currently I am having issues with holding aggro. I have reforged everything like was stated above and it seems like my ability to hold threat decreased immensely. Before, I had some of my stats reforged to Expertise, and now everything was reforged to balance out my parry/dodge. For some reason, I'm missing something in the reforging area. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, my paladin is Faction from Eitrigg.

#103 Flashlight

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:45 PM

I thought your information very helpful. I am a new player and it seems I've been misinformed on how to play a prot paladin. Currently I am having issues with holding aggro. I have reforged everything like was stated above and it seems like my ability to hold threat decreased immensely. Before, I had some of my stats reforged to Expertise, and now everything was reforged to balance out my parry/dodge. For some reason, I'm missing something in the reforging area. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, my paladin is Faction from Eitrigg.


I won't say I'm an expert on protection paladins, but I will give you the same advice as I gave a friend of mine.
You can hold aggro easily even with 0% hit and the base 10 expertise from the glyph (get the glyph of seal of truth by the way, since I see that you do not have it).

I would say it is a matter of the openers you use at pulling, a 3 holy power shield of the righteous at boss mobs will shoot you ahead of everyone on threat.
On multiple mobs remember to use inquisition and hammer of the righteous.
You can use divine plea to get to 3 holy power for the start of a fight.

Also I would suggest to change your talents a bit, eternal glory is useless for protection, as is improved hammer of justice.
I rarely use hallowed ground either, except just for consecration and dps show off on multiple mobs :)
Instead you could use those points on improvement judgement and rule of law, also I suggest to take pursuit of justice.

Also check the first post of this thread, you will see the talents and what each affects.

#104 Raistlin212

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:52 PM

Unlike many of the other threads on this forum, there isnt much discussion on the talents for this spec in the first post.
Could someone elaborate on why "improved judgement" is recommended over "eye for an eye"?
"Eye for an eye" isnt even mentioned but im sure ~12% spell damage recoil yields more threat than 20 yards extra range for judgement.


Because Maintankadin maintains a thread on Prot Pally mechanics with numerical analysis of all the "why" answers, this thread simply summarizes them.

For example, https://sites.google...n/4-3/43_CT.png summarizes talent DPS nicely. Talking about why some dps talents are better than others is less useful when you can just point to the graph.

As for your specific question, theck's thread about talent choices says: "Eye for an Eye deserves a special mention here. It seems to proc off of most spell-like attacks, regardless of damage type (even physical). Thus, depending on the boss, it can contribute anywhere from 1%-3% of your DPS completely passively. I personally value the utility of Improved Judgement too much to make that trade, but for those that don't E4E is a perfectly valid way to progress to tier 2 of Ret."

Holding up an Avenger's Shield is not really an option if you want to maintain higher dps, and the fact that Judgement allows you to refresh your SoT stack at range during movement phases has frequently gotten me dps gains. It's a quality of life thing, but Eye is a valid talent...just don't dismiss the utility of Imp Judgement.

#105 Eeowin

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:42 AM

I got a new UI today(Elv UI), if any one else has this or has had this problem maybe you can answer this. As far as I knew you shoot the 102.4% because for every level past 85 there is the penalty to doge parry and miss. I was playing around with the UI and noticed at the bottom there is an Avoidance calculator. Right now with no Raid buffs I am sitting at 105.5% which is what I personally calculate, and what the UI addon shows.

When I target a Boss target dummy the number drops 2.85% down to 102.65%. Unless there is something I am overlooking this seems wrong, because that 102.4% was supposed to cover that accomodation for the bosses level.

To me, it seems that what it's doing is calculating in the penalties to avoidance to my percentage, so in theory that should make the block cap 100% to my UI. But, I have played around with it, taking off a piece of gear so that on my UI my avoidance falls below 102.4%. When it is both above 102.4% and below, there is a Unhittable: calc. When the UI shows my avoidance at 102.65% it says, Unhittable: + .25%, so meaning I am .25% over the cap. When I take a piece of gear off and it changes to 101.87% it says Unhittable: - .53%, so I am below cap. So it seems that it is still using 102.4% as the cap, even AFTER calculating boss penalties.

Does anyone know if this is a fluke, or there is some additional element to being hit by a boss we are missing?

#106 Charybdis

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:05 AM

Your total combat table coverage should be 102.4%. Once you factor in the difference between you and the raid boss, it'll effectively drop to 100%. Assuming your character is max level, any program that says differently than 102.4% to start, then 100% adjusting for a boss, is wrong.

#107 Anglammaroth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

I got a new UI today(Elv UI), if any one else has this or has had this problem maybe you can answer this. As far as I knew you shoot the 102.4% because for every level past 85 there is the penalty to doge parry and miss. I was playing around with the UI and noticed at the bottom there is an Avoidance calculator. Right now with no Raid buffs I am sitting at 105.5% which is what I personally calculate, and what the UI addon shows.

When I target a Boss target dummy the number drops 2.85% down to 102.65%. Unless there is something I am overlooking this seems wrong, because that 102.4% was supposed to cover that accomodation for the bosses level.

To me, it seems that what it's doing is calculating in the penalties to avoidance to my percentage, so in theory that should make the block cap 100% to my UI. But, I have played around with it, taking off a piece of gear so that on my UI my avoidance falls below 102.4%. When it is both above 102.4% and below, there is a Unhittable: calc. When the UI shows my avoidance at 102.65% it says, Unhittable: + .25%, so meaning I am .25% over the cap. When I take a piece of gear off and it changes to 101.87% it says Unhittable: - .53%, so I am below cap. So it seems that it is still using 102.4% as the cap, even AFTER calculating boss penalties.

Does anyone know if this is a fluke, or there is some additional element to being hit by a boss we are missing?


What elv does is show you the current avoidance related to your current target. so with nothing targetted it shows you the raw 5+dodge+parry+block.. if you're targetting a lvl 60, it'll add your lvl difference in and shoot to 160 or something absurd. as long as you're above 100% while targetting a boss, you're good to go. (or 102.4 buffed with no target) Its an oddity of elv, but not anything wrong.

#108 Trueblade

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:35 PM

I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I cannot find it (admittedly I'm new to navigating these threads, and might have overlooked it.) Is there a general consensus about whether its better to gear for more avoidance, or more dps/threat after the "avoidance cap", or perhaps more stamina? Looking at the available end game gear right now, I think that the stamina will come naturally, and I for one support the idea of Main tanks prioritizing threat, and Off-tanks continuing to stack avoidance. Thus leaving Stamina completely out of the question, and any picked up is just a bonus. However, I also realize that if the MT has 26 exp, and 8% hit, the OT will probably not be able to taunt off and hold aggro. Further more, having stacked extra avoidance, the OT will actually be more survivable. So maybe I have them backwards.


A small side note, I think the term "avoidance cap" is a bit misleading. I understand that it means you totally avoid ever taking a full hit, but I would be in favor of changing the terminology to "mastery" or "Block cap". Just a thought.


One final thing I've been wondering about, and can't find a discussion in these forums; Tanking vs. bosses who spam spells, instead of physical damage. At the avoidance cap it seems I take more damage from enemies spamming shadow spells more than anything. And without any attacks to block you aren't gaining mana very quickly. Is it perhaps sensible to use the Effulgent Shadowspirit Diamond meta gem? It seems to me that 2% reduced damage from spells would be more helpful than 1% block value.



#109 Theck

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:43 PM

I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I cannot find it (admittedly I'm new to navigating these threads, and might have overlooked it.) Is there a general consensus about whether its better to gear for more avoidance, or more dps/threat after the "avoidance cap", or perhaps more stamina?

I generally recommend stamina over avoidance if you're concerned with survivability. I've provided more detailed reasoning in one of the old threads and on my blog. In addition to what's given there, Dragon Soul adds a lot of unblockable and unavoidable damage that further supports stamina gearing.

A small side note, I think the term "avoidance cap" is a bit misleading. I understand that it means you totally avoid ever taking a full hit, but I would be in favor of changing the terminology to "mastery" or "Block cap". Just a thought.

I agree that "avoidance cap" is misleading, but note that the term "avoidance cap" doesn't occur a single time in the original post. Wrathblood uses "block cap" very consistently, which is proper terminology. Another alternative is "CTC cap."

One final thing I've been wondering about, and can't find a discussion in these forums; Tanking vs. bosses who spam spells, instead of physical damage. At the avoidance cap it seems I take more damage from enemies spamming shadow spells more than anything. And without any attacks to block you aren't gaining mana very quickly. Is it perhaps sensible to use the Effulgent Shadowspirit Diamond meta gem? It seems to me that 2% reduced damage from spells would be more helpful than 1% block value.

It really depends on the encounter, but Effulgent is a viable choice for a number of heroic DS bosses (Yor'sahj and Madess both come to mind).

#110 Capstone

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:33 PM

Yor'sahj and Madness are the only bosses in DS where Effulgent is viable; all other bosses deal primarily melee damage. It's up to you whether it's worth it to swap in a helm with Effulgent in order to slightly lessen the strain on your healers' mana (which could be an issue in either of those fights).

On other minor topics you touched on in your post: for the last couple of tiers, the distinction between MT and OT has faded; instead of each having a particular role in the fight or one tank doing considerably more tanking than the other, most fights are either one-tank fights or have tanks swapping regularly and taking similar damage. Thus it doesn't really make sense in most cases to have a different gearing strategy for OT vs MT (feral druids being somewhat of an exception if you choose the hybrid route). Also, just as a clarification, mana regen for prot pallies is from judgement now, not from spiritual attunement or any other mechanic.

#111 Theck

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 05:49 PM

Also, just as a clarification, mana regen for prot pallies is from judgement now, not from spiritual attunement or any other mechanic.


Sanctuary still returns mana on dodges/blocks.

#112 Trueblade

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:18 PM

A question on block cap again. I was trolling around the Shimmering Expanse and decided to pull Velskar (huge boss level "beast" similar to the whale shark, less health and deals less damage) I have 16.91% dodge 16.57% parry, and 64.82% block. (64.82 + 5 + 16.57 + 16.91 = 103.30 = more than capped.) I dodged/parried the first few attacks, blocked a couple in a row. Then suddenly I was hit for 100k+ by two in a row. I guess this is because of the "diminishing returns" of dodge and parry? Does anyone know how the math for that works out? Should it be noted as a better idea to have block over dodge/parry Even while at the cap, because of this?

Edit: Late thought:
Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong, and I should get dodge/parry to around 18 or 20 each, and block down to ~60. But the issue still remains, if you dodge or parry the first attack of an encounter, aren't you no longer block capped? How long does that last?

#113 Exemplar

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:04 PM

Trueblade, diminishing returns doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Your chance to dodge/parry/block/be-missed does not change based on dodging/parrying/blocking/being-missed by a previous attack.

Cheap example of diminishing returns:
100 rating moves you from 0% Disco dancer to 1% Disco dancer.
It now takes an additional 105 rating (total 205) to move from 1% to 2%.
It takes 110 rating (total 315) to move from 2% to 3%.

Get up to 20% Disco Dancer and you have the option to go for 150 Disco Rating for 1% more Disco Dancer, or pick up 100 Waltz Rating to go from 0% to 1% Waltz. 150 rating vs 100 rating - it's 'cheaper' to pick up the Waltz. Your returns on Disco have diminished in comparison.

Avoidance cap does not diminish. If you have sufficient avoidance to block/parry/dodge/be-missed, then it remains so.

Example 2:
20% Dodge
20% Parry
10% Miss
50% Block
Attack 1 is a dodge.
Attack 2 still has a 20% chance to be dodged, 20% to be parried, 10% to miss, and 50% to be blocked. Your dodge chance does not alter because you dodged the last attack.

If you were hit multiple times by a mob then either A) you were not at avoidance cap for a mob of that level or B) it attacked from behind (where you cannot dodge or block), or C) you gained a debuff which reduced some form of avoidance.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#114 Akawa

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 09:43 AM

This mob has one ability listed on wowhead:
Paralytic Poison - Deals nature damage and stuns an enemy after 15 sec, rendering it unable to move or attack for a short time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't dodge/parry/block while stunned. So that's the most probable reason the mob smacked the hell out of you.

#115 Ronark

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 06:53 PM

You also can't block, parry, or dodge from attacks from behind. Some mobs with rather large hitboxes do tend to bug, where their attacks will come from behind, or your attacks form behind are parried due to being treated as coming from the front.




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