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Patch 4.3 - Warlock Discussion


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#1 moop

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:31 PM

Figured we could use a thread to discuss the (announced) 4.3 changes. I'll try to keep this post updated with what's been officially released so far.

T13 Set Bonuses

  • 2P -- The duration of your Doomguard and Infernal summons is increased by [20|30] sec and the cooldown of of those spells is reduced by 4 min. (20 for Demonology, 30 for non-Demonology.)
  • 4P -- [Soul Burn] grants a 10% increase to your spell power for 10 sec, and [Soul Fire] cast with [Soul Burn] active now grants a Soul Shard.

Talent Specializations
  • Affliction
  • [Jinx] now increases the target’s rage, energy, focus, or runic power cost of abilities, rather than reducing their generation.


Bug Fixes

Miscellaneous


Sources
- PTR 4.3 Patch Notes
- Patch 4.3: Tier 13 Set Bonuses
Author of Fatality & Flump.

#2 Unknowndiv

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:13 AM

I really don't like 2P bonus. It's just not the best idea to mess up with our summons, especially with present demonology masteery bonus.
As for 4P (for demonology) I have this thought: It does not line up with demon soul - 45+45+45=135 vs 120 seconds cooldowns. So If we'll still sync our metamorphosis with demon soul then we will benifit this 10% buff once every 120 seconds. My math is bad.

#3 WilyEWarlock

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:31 AM

Regarding the 4pc bonus, it is essentially the SB:ISF mechanic repeated, now with 22% uptime. Estimating from what I've looked at 13k as a round T13 SP figure, this would indicate an approximate DPS bonus of 797.5 if used on CD.

#4 Dastey

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:26 AM

Regarding 2pc bonus: 20 seconds as demonology with a doomguard that does 24k dps during the duration will be an extra 480k damage. Assuming the worst conditions which would be a 6 minutes fight that would be equal to 1333 dps. Now if the fight last 7½ minutes we would get some extra uptime on the doomguard. Timing it perfectly with proccs again would probably not be easy so 20k dps for 90 extra seconds would yield 1,8 million damage. Which would make the set piece bonus worth a total of 5000 dps. It seems a bit over the top really, but if they don't nerf/fix the triple mastery, I certainly am not the one to complain.

Regarding 4 piece bonus I guess it has to be tested what is the optimal:
- Start with Felstorm and wait with doomguard + BoD so you can use felpuppy first or simply fire off Soul Fire when all buffs are up
- 2 Soul fires or 1 soul fire in between each pet summon? (Delay pet with 15 seconds seems worth it)

#5 Guest_Admired_*

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:04 PM

Hmm, the 4piece will probably be used every minute rather than on CD. This allows
us to use it with every BOD and Demon Soul. Using the 4set on CD sounds like too much
delaying involved unless it works well with Intellect buffs from enchants/trinkets.

#6 clavarnway

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:05 PM

4.2 Known Issues and Bug Reports - Forums - World of Warcraft

Warlock
Some Warlock pets are over benefiting from Mastery.


Along with the proposed 2 piece changes, this signals to me that they are going to nerf (fix) Doomguard's scaling with Mastery at the same time they buff it with the 2 piece bonus from the new tier.

I would be interested in seeing if this changes how valuable Mastery is for stat values if this is the only change.
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#7 netsach

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 01:32 PM

To shed some light on clavarnway's insight about the possible 4.3 doomguard mastery-fix :
- it would evaluate to about 42% doomguard damage "lost" for both BiS T12 profiles
- as a consequence, the demo stats weights for these profiles would be changed so that hit > haste > mastery > crit

  37513  52.8%  Warlock_Demonology_T12H_triple_mastery_contribution
   doomguard  (DPS=20274.5)
    doombolt               Count= 21.0| 3.00sec  DPE= 62755| 8%  DPET= 20918  DPR=   0.0  pDPS=   0  Miss=0.00%  Hit=45868|41044|45888  Crit=91509|81883|91546|43.9%
		total doomguard damage : [b]1317855[/b]
  Scale Factors:
    Weights :  Int=3.5384(0.0939)  SP=2.7141(0.0943)  Hit=2.8826(0.0939)  Crit=1.5487(0.0941)  Haste=1.8868(0.0934)  Mastery=1.9508(0.0942)

  36241  52.8%  Warlock_Demonology_T12H_single_mastery_contribution
   doomguard  (DPS=11646.9)
    doombolt               Count= 21.0| 3.00sec  DPE= 36050| 5%  DPET= 12017  DPR=   0.0  pDPS=   0  Miss=0.00%  Hit=26330|22691|26342  Crit=52528|45269|52553|44.0%
		total doomguard damage : [b]757050[/b]
  Scale Factors:
    Weights :  Int=3.4620(0.0828)  SP=2.7503(0.0823)  Hit=2.6871(0.0834)  Crit=1.5737(0.0828)  Haste=1.9534(0.0820)  Mastery=1.8287(0.0822)

  33540  47.2%  Warlock_Demonology_T12N_triple_mastery_contribution
   doomguard  (DPS=19008.2)
    doombolt               Count= 21.0| 3.00sec  DPE= 58835| 8%  DPET= 19612  DPR=   0.0  pDPS=   0  Miss=0.00%  Hit=43691|37341|43754  Crit=87172|74494|87289|41.6%
		total doomguard damage : [b]1235535[/b]
  Scale Factors:
    Weights :  Int=3.3750(0.0850)  SP=2.6227(0.0846)  Hit=2.5289(0.0851)  Crit=1.4013(0.0846)  Haste=1.7604(0.0853)  Mastery=1.7940(0.0845)

  32351  47.2%  Warlock_Demonology_T12N_single_mastery_contribution
   doomguard  (DPS=10849.3)
    doombolt               Count= 21.0| 3.00sec  DPE= 33581| 5%  DPET= 11194  DPR=   0.0  pDPS=   0  Miss=0.00%  Hit=24987|21214|25022  Crit=49848|42322|49919|41.3%
		total doomguard damage : [b]705201[/b]
  Scale Factors:
    Weights :  Int=3.3352(0.0742)  SP=2.6101(0.0740)  Hit=2.3533(0.0746)  Crit=1.4023(0.0740)  Haste=1.8055(0.0750)  Mastery=1.5919(0.0743)


#8 clavarnway

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:06 PM

Doomguard scaling nerf? - Forums - World of Warcraft

In 4.3, we have fixed the bug that caused the Doomguard to benefit too much from mastery. We have buffed Demonology warlocks to compensate. Also note that we have not yet completed our balance adjustments for 4.3 so what you've seen in the patch notes are mostly of a mechanical nature.

That said, we think balance is in a good place overall, so anyone expecting huge pendulum swings will probably be disappointed.


If this goes in line with netsach's post, it seems Mastery will fall below Haste in stat values. At least that will make it easier to go between Affliction and Demo between bosses without having to reforge? :)
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#9 Aeiri

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:47 AM

Doomguard scaling nerf? - Forums - World of Warcraft



If this goes in line with netsach's post, it seems Mastery will fall below Haste in stat values. At least that will make it easier to go between Affliction and Demo between bosses without having to reforge? :)



I'm wanting to see how it will affect our trinket choices. Is this going to make another trinket pull ahead of MWC or will the mastery effect still trump other choices?


Going to have to wait for someone more sim-savy to run this. I haven't the slightest clue on how to go about testing the mastery fix.

#10 Faelix the Dwarf

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 03:03 AM

I'm wanting to see how it will affect our trinket choices. Is this going to make another trinket pull ahead of MWC or will the mastery effect still trump other choices?


Going to have to wait for someone more sim-savy to run this. I haven't the slightest clue on how to go about testing the mastery fix.


It remains to be seen how they choose to buff Demonology to compensate for the Mastery dipping fix. Running sims with the current model will not give you an accurate picture of what will become of the stat weights, because those buffs are currently unknown.

Easiest way for them to do it is through Demonic Knowledge. If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see haste come back up top by a slight margin.

#11 angaroth

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 02:35 PM

The only way mastery can keep its top slot is if they buff the pet or meta.

#12 eredor

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:46 PM

Patch 4.3 - PTR Build 14791

Demonology
•Master Demonologist now increases damage you deal while transformed into a demon by 20%, up from 16%. Each point of Mastery increases damage by an additional 2.5%, up from 2%.
•Demonic Knowledge now increases your Fire and Shadow spell damage by 20%, up from 15%.



#13 realCool

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:09 AM

Quick Napkin Math for the Change:

If we take the Patchwerk Simcraft Profile Demonolgy does 37469 DPS
First we calculate the buff from Demonic Knowledge, for that we substract our Pet and Doomguard DPS.
That is:

Felstorm 826
Legion Strike: 199
Felguard Melee: 144
Felhunter Melee: 1687
Shadow Bite: 7835
Doombolt: 2913
Ebon Imp Melee: 265
Fiery Imp Flame Blast: 330

So the DPS only from the caster are 23270. This number dervies from the old Demonic Knowledge which increased our Fire and Shadow spell damage by 15% which means the numbers are 115% from our normal damage. So 100% would be: 20235. Now we have 20% from Demonic Knowledge, with this we come to: 24282.

Next mastery:
The simcraft profile has 20.01 mastery points. Before the patch this was 40.02% more dmg. Now it comes to 50.025% more dmg. We have an uptime of 18% from the Moonwell Chalice Buff during the fight. The Chalice grants 1700 mastery rating (=9.48 mastery points). Before this was 18.96% more dmg now it would be 23.71% more dmg. We switch the Felguard after his Felstorm. So Felstorm always benefits from the Chalice. After that the Felhunter benefits from it. The duration of the Chalice is 20 seconds and of a felstorm 6 seconds. So 30% of the uptime goes to felstorm. That means 70% are for the felhunter. So the felhunter has a chalice uptime from 12.6%. So he gets an average mastery buff from 50.025% * 87.4% + (50.025%+23.71%) * 12.6% = 53.01% instead of 40.02% * 87.4% + (40.02%+18.96%) * 12.6% = 42.41%. I don't know if the Ebon Imp and Flame Imp also scale with mastery, so I assume for now that that is not the case.

Felstorm: 826 (158.98%) -> 903 (173.735)
Legion Strike: 199 (140.02%) -> 213 (150.025%)
Felguard Melee: 144 (140.02%) -> 154 (150.025%)
Felhunter Melee: 1687 (142.41%) -> 1813 (153.01%)
Shadow Bite: 7835 (142.41%) -> 8418 (153.01%)

Fo now for Meta. As calculated above before we had (40.02%+18.96%) = 58.98% more dmg during Meta. Now it should be: (50.025%+23.71%) = 73.735%
Meta uptime is 32% The benefit is 65% That means the overall benefit is 20.08% That means 20.08% of the time we had a dmg bonus of 58.98%. This averages out to 58.98%*20.08% = 11.843% dmg bonus during the whole fight. For the new mastery coefficient we get: 73.735%*20.08% = 14.806%
So our old DPS (including the new bonus from Demonic Knowledge of course) was 24282. Now to calculate the new one: 24282/1.11843*1.14806 = 24925.

If we add everything together now without the Doomguard we get 37021 DPS So the old value was 37469 Dps with the Doomguard. That means to get even the Doomguard must still be able to achieve 448 DPS (This is 15% from the old value). Considering this the changes should result in an overall buff, because I assume the Doomguard will not be nerfed by 85%, probably more like 60% or something.

#14 netsach

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:15 PM

I make a quick hack to the code to simulate both demonology talent changes (code diff)
And i ran T2H demo profile using ptr=0 and ptr=1, then summarized contributions by source to build the following table :
T12H	        4.2      PTR    Delta
Warlock	        23893	 26060	9.07%
Felguard	1167	 1276	9.34%
Felhunter	9520	 10231	7.47%
Doomguard	2939	 1851	-37.02%
Total w/ DG	37519	 39418	5.06%
Total w/o DG	34580	 37567	8.64%

And that let me to think that maybe the Demonic Knowledge change is a little bit overtuned if they just wanted to compensate DG fix (losing ~1100 from doomguard, gaining 110+700 from felguard+felhunter would lead to a 300dps loss only counting Master Demonologist change)

#15 Zakalwe

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:46 PM

Keep in mind the simulations are a 7.5 minute fight, which in 4.3 would mean two doomguards. If you're comparing a typical 4-5 minute Heroic Baleroc kill the difference between 4.2 and 4.3 should be much much less.

#16 Jahrasta

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:04 PM

Keep in mind the simulations are a 7.5 minute fight, which in 4.3 would mean two doomguards. If you're comparing a typical 4-5 minute Heroic Baleroc kill the difference between 4.2 and 4.3 should be much much less.


Netsach's simulations aren't assuming 2-piece T13, they're 12H gear. The cooldown is still 10 minutes.

#17 Zakalwe

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 02:08 PM

Netsach's simulations aren't assuming 2-piece T13, they're 12H gear. The cooldown is still 10 minutes.

I'm not saying his simulations are using two doomguards, I'm saying if you're comparing a 7.5 minute fight in 4.2 with a 7.5 minute fight in 4.3 you *should* be comparing a fight using one doomguard with a fight using two doomguards, which at that point is just an unfair comparison. So, like I suggested, just compare two 4-minute fights, at which point the proportion of doomguard active time is much higher, so the buffs would not seem so overtuned.

EDIT: If you do want to compare longer fights, you should compare two fights with the 2-piece T13, one with the recently-announced changes implemented and one without them. Again the proportion of doomguard uptime would be much higher than in the default 7.5 minute simulations.

#18 TheQwertiest

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 03:00 PM

Keep in mind the simulations are a 7.5 minute fight, which in 4.3 would mean two doomguards. If you're comparing a typical 4-5 minute Heroic Baleroc kill the difference between 4.2 and 4.3 should be much much less.


[EDIT: I should read more carefully]: I cant see why a comparison between 2-DG 4.2 fight and 2-DG 4.3 fight would be needed as we wont have 2piece t13 bonus in 4.2 anyway. I think you understand that Bliz wouldn't have made such a tier bonus if not for DG and/or lock overall nerf.

Sim'ing 2-DG fight in 4.3 is equivalent to sim'ing t13 p2 bonus. And netsach's sim only shows the difference made by DG nerf/masterн buff, not the difference between tier set bonuses :\

#19 netsach

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 03:56 PM

The goal of my post above was to show how our spec would behave when starting the upcoming content (or for people raiding firelands on the ptr right now).

Because at that time you have no T13 set bonus but you use the new game mechanics, and maybe we should adapt/tune our gameplay accordingly.

So to sum it up : above, i compared T12 4.2 vs T12 4.3 (ie mechanics comparison) .... i did not compare T12 4.3 vs T13 4.3 yet (ie set bonuses comparison)

#20 Zakalwe

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

Yeah I have no dispute with the simulation itself, I should have quoted specifically what I was responding to:

And that let me to think that maybe the Demonic Knowledge change is a little bit overtuned if they just wanted to compensate DG fix (losing ~1100 from doomguard, gaining 110+700 from felguard+felhunter would lead to a 300dps loss only counting Master Demonologist change)

All I'm saying is that the quoted 1100 DPS loss from the DG is tied specifically to the fight length of 7.5 minutes, and that for shorter fight lengths (or if using 2-piece T13) the DG bugfix is a much bigger loss.




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