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Cataclysm 4.3.x Raid Mechanics


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#21 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:33 PM

A couple things for heroic 10-man Warmaster Blackhorn, disarming the large adds does not appear to prevent the usage of their abilities (stun immune as well). Feint alone is not enough to solo a Twilight Onslaught (large blast, does 1.2 million on heroic) however, it can be CoS-immuned.
Most rogues are unaware of the fact that when they cast killing spree, they are an eligible victim of the killing spree.

#22 Enzo90910

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:31 PM

Yor'sahj the Unsleeping:
-Combat will most likely be the best spec due to adds and cleaving.


I disagree with that. Adds are either multiple (black ooze) and better killed with aoe or a sole blue mana sponge usually not close enough to the boss for cleave purposes. I don't think Combat cleaving ability will help much. Assassination's strong AoE may push it to the top for this fight.

#23 PikaPika1006

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:47 AM

I disagree with that. Adds are either multiple (black ooze) and better killed with aoe or a sole blue mana sponge usually not close enough to the boss for cleave purposes. I don't think Combat cleaving ability will help much. Assassination's strong AoE may push it to the top for this fight.


The boss can easily be dragged on top of the mana void to allow cleaving.

#24 sinnaa

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:14 AM

I disagree with that. Adds are either multiple (black ooze) and better killed with aoe or a sole blue mana sponge usually not close enough to the boss for cleave purposes. I don't think Combat cleaving ability will help much. Assassination's strong AoE may push it to the top for this fight.


We tried assassination on one of the 25 man attempts. Assassination seemed to be stronger. This could use some more review.


A couple things for heroic 10-man Warmaster Blackhorn, disarming the large adds does not appear to prevent the usage of their abilities (stun immune as well). Feint alone is not enough to solo a Twilight Onslaught (large blast, does 1.2 million on heroic) however, it can be CoS-immuned.


It is not recommended that you solo a Twilight Onslaught. While someone can survive the blast while solo'ing it, the damage appears to continue to the ship unless there are a minimum number of people in it.

#25 Vaccine

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 01:15 PM

Update on killing spree on Madness of Deathwing. It still works on the Arm and Wing tentacles. On the Wing ones you get placed in the air like I mentioned previously but you're safe, nothing to worry about. On the Arm tentacles you just stay in front of it and on the ground during KS. KS does not work on the Mutated Corruption, I was unable to cast it at all. I didn't spot whether it targeted Blistering Tentacles or not as I was tending to save it for the Regenerative Blood.
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#26 Naihan

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:30 PM

I tried a little bit last night with no success, but I am unable to confirm it for sure: can the Blistering Tentacles be blade-flurried in Madness?

#27 Ashvael

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:05 PM

I tried a little bit last night with no success, but I am unable to confirm it for sure: can the Blistering Tentacles be blade-flurried in Madness?


No, they can only be killed with single target damage.

#28 n0point

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:46 PM

This needs some extra testing but I was under the impression that I could target the Blistering tentacles and cleave the main one. Seems possible from the way it is phrased.

#29 sinnaa

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:52 PM

This needs some extra testing but I was under the impression that I could target the Blistering tentacles and cleave the main one. Seems possible from the way it is phrased.


This is what I was doing as well. You could target them and cleave off of them. I watched the fraps I have of it to confirm and it was happening. They may have changed this since then

#30 Kelensan

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 06:45 AM

Still can't Backstab Ultraxion. Killing Spree does work though.

What about shadowstep?

#31 PikaPika1006

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 07:58 AM

Still kills you.

#32 knpkra

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 03:58 PM

regarding the 4.3 legendary in the first id:
would it theoritcally be possible to clear the first three DS bosses with a twinkraid, then join the raid with your main (to pickpocket the quest item), finish the solo quests and then start collecting the shadowy gems in mainraid the other day?
this way you'd be able to collect shadowy gems from 8 instead of 5 bosses

#33 eylieen

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 05:01 PM

At the risk of sounding like I'm after hand-holding, can people who have bothered testing heroic modes on the PTR give some feedback regarding the viability of the different specs for each encounter? As it stands it appears combat is better single target and better cleave, so seems overall superior in Dragonsoul - depressing news for me as I cannot stand the current combat mechanics. Is assassination viable on any/all of the fights (by viable I mean is there any benefit whatsoever playing assassination over combat)? If not, just how much worse is it overall, and on specific encounters? A detailed list would be hugely appreciated by more than just me I'm sure.

#34 PikaPika1006

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 01:27 AM

At the risk of sounding like I'm after hand-holding, can people who have bothered testing heroic modes on the PTR give some feedback regarding the viability of the different specs for each encounter? As it stands it appears combat is better single target and better cleave, so seems overall superior in Dragonsoul - depressing news for me as I cannot stand the current combat mechanics. Is assassination viable on any/all of the fights (by viable I mean is there any benefit whatsoever playing assassination over combat)? If not, just how much worse is it overall, and on specific encounters? A detailed list would be hugely appreciated by more than just me I'm sure.


Every encounter has a spec that it really favors, sadly for you that spec is rarely assassination.

Morchok - Sub so you can feint/cloak/feint every blood phase

Zon'ozz - Combat for cleaving tentacles

Yor'sahj - Combat for cleaving and having sprint up for every ooze phase. Assassination can be good here if you're having troubles with the black ooze adds, but blade flurry does a good amount of damage to them as well.

Hagara - Combat for cleaving ice tombs. Similar to Yor'sahj, if your group is having trouble killing them in a timely manner assassination can be helpful.

Ultraxion - Due to assassination and subtlety having to use backstab for optimal damage, combat is miles ahead on this fight. That is unless they make him able to be backstabbed again before 4.3 goes live.

Blackhorn - Combat for cleaving the vrykul adds in phase one.

Spine - Combat for cleaving bloods.

Madness - Combat for cleaving bloods, meteors, parasites, and elementium terrors.

To sum things up, there are a few fights where assassination has a perk over the other two specs, but even in those two cases combat has a good perk of its own, and barring those two situations it's combat/subtlety all the way.

#35 eylieen

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 04:10 AM

Yeah that's what I was afraid of.. Thanks regardless, although I can only see combat becoming even less fun to play with more haste and 1.8 speed MG procs, and I don't think my finger will last another entire tier of spamming SS.

#36 Khazilein

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 04:25 AM

Every encounter has a spec that it really favors, sadly for you that spec is rarely assassination.

Morchok - Sub so you can feint/cloak/feint every blood phase

Zon'ozz - Combat for cleaving tentacles

Yor'sahj - Combat for cleaving and having sprint up for every ooze phase. Assassination can be good here if you're having troubles with the black ooze adds, but blade flurry does a good amount of damage to them as well.

Hagara - Combat for cleaving ice tombs. Similar to Yor'sahj, if your group is having trouble killing them in a timely manner assassination can be helpful.

Ultraxion - Due to assassination and subtlety having to use backstab for optimal damage, combat is miles ahead on this fight. That is unless they make him able to be backstabbed again before 4.3 goes live.

Blackhorn - Combat for cleaving the vrykul adds in phase one.

Spine - Combat for cleaving bloods.

Madness - Combat for cleaving bloods, meteors, parasites, and elementium terrors.

To sum things up, there are a few fights where assassination has a perk over the other two specs, but even in those two cases combat has a good perk of its own, and barring those two situations it's combat/subtlety all the way.



You sure you are speaking of heroic mode? I have heard cleaving some of the adds won't work in heroic and sub won't be able to survive the heightened heroic dmg of some boss abilities.
Also how about target switches and survivability? Assassination get's 20 % more heal which can be a lifesaver and switches targets faster than the two other specs.

#37 PikaPika1006

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 02:45 PM

You sure you are speaking of heroic mode? I have heard cleaving some of the adds won't work in heroic and sub won't be able to survive the heightened heroic dmg of some boss abilities.
Also how about target switches and survivability? Assassination get's 20 % more heal which can be a lifesaver and switches targets faster than the two other specs.


As shown here Morchok heroic's blood phase is very easily survivable. The blood damage on 25 heroic is the same as 10 heroic.

If you're having trouble staying alive compared to everyone else as a rogue with all the raid damage reduction we have, 20% additional healing really isn't going to save your skin any more than playing better will. Obviously in 10 mans this could play a bigger part, as with the other niche advantages of mut, but who cares about 10 mans.

And mut doesn't really switch faster or better than other specs, or at least not as much as people think. If you're smart with redirect use BG really isn't a problem (not to mention there isn't a whole lot of hard target swapping anyway). And sub can have great burst on new targets, provided you're ignoring rupture on things you shouldn't be rupturing. And of course deadly poison isn't near as big a deal for combat or sub as it is for mut.

#38 sinnaa

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:30 AM

Every encounter has a spec that it really favors, sadly for you that spec is rarely assassination.

Morchok - Sub so you can feint/cloak/feint every blood phase

Zon'ozz - Combat for cleaving tentacles

Yor'sahj - Combat for cleaving and having sprint up for every ooze phase. Assassination can be good here if you're having troubles with the black ooze adds, but blade flurry does a good amount of damage to them as well.

Hagara - Combat for cleaving ice tombs. Similar to Yor'sahj, if your group is having trouble killing them in a timely manner assassination can be helpful.

Ultraxion - Due to assassination and subtlety having to use backstab for optimal damage, combat is miles ahead on this fight. That is unless they make him able to be backstabbed again before 4.3 goes live.

Blackhorn - Combat for cleaving the vrykul adds in phase one.

Spine - Combat for cleaving bloods.

Madness - Combat for cleaving bloods, meteors, parasites, and elementium terrors.

To sum things up, there are a few fights where assassination has a perk over the other two specs, but even in those two cases combat has a good perk of its own, and barring those two situations it's combat/subtlety all the way.


Tested most of the bosses on heroic and I tend to agree with this post. I would say that Yor'sahj favors assassination over combat because of FoK spamming when black and yellow occur. The majority of the bosses favor combat from my experience. They just made BF so powerful that its hard to not find ways to use it. As far as Morchok, I think it is just going to depend on the strat and your healers. Personally, I am going to run like a little girl and hide until I know they can handle it :-P

#39 eylieen

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:00 AM

Yeah that's unfortunately true, but it's really not fun to play an irritating cycle and rely on a single overpowered but generally boring cleave ability - I was rather surprised they did nothing in this patch to fix assassination, by at least giving it competitive single target, but possibly by implementing some kind of cleave. It seems like poor design that one spec can cleave but can't aoe, one spec can aoe but can't cleave, and one spec can't do either, when specs like fury, fire, shadow, etc can do both. Fingers crossed they fix this stuff in MoP I guess.

#40 Probaton

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 02:11 PM

If anything I'd say the current Rogue set-up is exactly what specs should be like. Each spec has it's own advantages to bring to the table, as well as it's fair share of disadvantages. This system allows Rogues to play either spec without severely punishing them in either, yet still rewards the top tier of Rogues for going the extra mile and tailoring their spec to the current raid requirements (cleaves, aoe, survivability, etc).

Ps. Assassination dps is competitive with (not to be confused with 'equal to') Combat, so I don't really see where you're going with that argument.




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