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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#1 Dopameany

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 12:15 AM

http://media.mmo-cha...ctober/ct14.jpg

Wow... any thoughts on this new RE/RC debate? I can't imagine why anyone would take Blood Tap over the other two. Does RC look potent enough to overtake RE?

#2 Kaejin

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:48 AM

It's too soon to be doing any theorycrafting about most MoP talents yet. We have no idea about core mechanic changes or spec changes and even if we did all of the numbers in the talents are likely to change. You can even see that Blood Tap has a cooldown of one minute which would make it completely inferior to the other two options in nearly every case possible. Seems likely it's supposed to be a passive with no cooldown and they just used the original Blood Tap tooltip as the base for that one.
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#3 Dopameany

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:54 AM

It's too soon to be doing any theorycrafting about most MoP talents yet. We have no idea about core mechanic changes or spec changes and even if we did all of the numbers in the talents are likely to change. You can even see that Blood Tap has a cooldown of one minute which would make it completely inferior to the other two options in nearly every case possible. Seems likely it's supposed to be a passive with no cooldown and they just used the original Blood Tap tooltip as the base for that one.


Fair enough. I just thought it interesting that they would make a CHOICE on the core of how the Frost rotation works.

#4 rh8452

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:50 AM

To be fair, it's likely easy to theorycraft between:

- 1 depleted rune refreshes every 3 FS (guaranteed) via new blood tap
- 1.35 depleted runes refresh every 3 FS (average) via runic empowerment
- the 100% additional rune regen rate provided by runic corruption if one uses FS every 3 seconds minimum to ensure 100% uptime

In most scenarios we'd pick the latter as frost is a very RNG plagued spec and RC solves the "rune casino" we currently play around. I'm sure blood tap will get buffed as it's vastly inferior for DPS purposes even as a passive.

#5 Netukka

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:41 PM

On the RE/RC/BT debate (which shouldnt even happen yet, its beta, numbers change).

Its not even a competition.

BT still has a 1min cooldown. So one free rune every minute.
RE like on live. RNG machine. 45% chance on fully depleted.
RC on the other hand is AMAZING and extremely overpowered compared to the other two. 100% chance instead of 45% on live AND it works for frost, (which already generates more RP thanks to CotG on live, could be scrapped from MoP obviously).

I really like the new model though, like being able to get AMZ for all specs if needed.

#6 rh8452

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:50 AM

It's relatively obvious the new blood tap won't have a 1 minute cooldown, they just copied the tooltip and forgot to remove that. It will be a passive.

#7 starbless

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:03 AM

Incorrect, rh8452, with that talent, you will be able to stack up to three "blood charges." Once at three charges, you're able to activate a blood rune into an instant death rune. This death rune activation will have a one minute cooldown.

#8 Dopameany

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:46 PM

Incorrect, rh8452, with that talent, you will be able to stack up to three "blood charges." Once at three charges, you're able to activate a blood rune into an instant death rune. This death rune activation will have a one minute cooldown.


I'm fairly certain (like 100% certain), that he knows how to read and what Blizzard put on the screen in terms of 1 min c/d. The reason he's saying it's obviously going to be a passive ability (i.e. once you get 3 charges, you can activate it - no c/d), is because if it WERE to be a 1 min c/d, it would be so vastly inferior to the other 2 choices that it wouldn't even be an option. Therefore, the only way to make it even remotely close is by making it a no c/d (passive) ability.

#9 Kaejin

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:52 PM

Exactly. This is a case where you have to read in-between the lines. All talent tiers have abilities that are similar in power and use. Tier 5 for DKs are all rune regeneration effects meant to fill the role RE/RC currently do. RE and RC are there are mostly the same as they are now, with Blood Tap being the new skill. Take into account that RE and RC have no CDs, add some dynamic elements to our resource generation, and have similar values as talents, and you can see that Blood Tap is nothing like them if you take it at face value, no one would EVER take it. However, remove the cooldown and assume that it automatically activates once you get three charges, and you have what equates to RE with a reliable activation rate instead of a random chance to occur.

We have no way of knowing for sure, but it's a pretty logical conclusion.
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#10 kow

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 06:58 PM

Assuming no c/d, Blood tap as it's written will be ideal for fights with frequent periods of 5-8s or more downtime (think heroic rag phase 2), where you want to store that extra rune for burst, particularly for AOE. Tanks may see similar value in that it guarantees their rotation, so if they're getting bursted heavily in intermittent spurts, being able to frontload that extra rune regen might be optimal.

RE vs RC is gonna be interesting, though. I wonder if we'll see people haste-capping by the 2nd tier of MoP content.

#11 Carebare

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:31 PM

Please use this thread to discuss Death Knights in the Mists of Pandaria expansion. Avoid excessive wish-listing and whining. Constructive criticism is fine. Make sure you are making a useful post. "I like X" is not useful. "I like X because it allows this or that" is useful. Common sense applies, if you're not sure feel free to PM a moderator or administrator. Thanks.

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#12 Taiyoken

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 11:56 PM

Seems like the talents you would always pick up as a DPS are:

15Outbreak (Roiling Blood is basically pestilence that does a bit more damage? And I can't see CE being useful)

30AMZ - raidwall > personal CD

45Chilblains - this is a PvP tree so there's nothing too gamebreaking here

60VB or Death Siphon depending on the fight - if there is ranged downtime then Death Siphon could be pretty useful. VB on a Patchwerk fight.

75 Runic Corruption > other two talents? It's the least RNG mechanic compared to RE, and BT seems pretty lackluster for a DPS because you'd run into huge periods of downtime. Please tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure RC > RE. With 2H frost (assuming that still exists in MoP) you could pretty much have 100% uptime on RC due to the absurd amounts of RP you generate.

90 Remorseless Winter does more damage than Desecrated Ground. If there's some add fight where stunning them messes things up you could take DG.


As a tank you'd probably pick up stuff like this, except you'd take Gorefiend's Grasp. Wonder how they will balance tanking if they make you choose between LB/AMZ/BS.

#13 Kaejin

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:26 AM

CE has some use in scenarios like Lady Deathwhisper, Valithria, and Gunship.

AMZ and Boneshield are much better than Lichborne (especially when you have the choice of taking Desecrated Ground later in the tree).

Chilblains is probably a good standby for Frost, but snares often have as limited use in raid encounters as stuns do. Asphyxiate will be valuable on trash and certain add fights for sure. Imagine being able to channel the stun on a Son during the second transition on H Ragnaros.

RC is going to be the best bet in PvE content in pretty much all situations. Blood Tap is interesting in that they attempted to make a version of RE that was more predictable and versatile, but the low amount of procs it gets as a tradeoff probably won't make it worth it (especially when RC is leagues better than RE anyway).

Tier six is extremely subjective, which is probably the best thing about it. There's something here for just about any situation, bar Patchwerk. I wouldn't judge any of these talents based on damage yet so I judge based on utility. Gorefiend's Grasp has amazing potential for assisting tanks and gathering adds for AoE. Once again, think of Sons phase on Rag. Remorseless Winter has similar utility, but not all adds are able to be stunned or slowed. It would provide some good kiting assistance and good CC for whichever you need. A great tool for Blood tanks to finally obtain a method of group mob control. Desecrated Ground, as mentioned earlier, will be great for any fight involving CC against the raid. Drop it down whenever you can expect CC to go out and continue with business as usual.

We received one of the most impressive final tiers, and our tree overall feels great. The only exception is t5 since RE is such a terrible mechanic.
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#14 Taiyoken

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 06:03 AM

I just noticed that Gorefiend's Grasp (GG, best acronym tbh) doesn't taunt the mobs (might change?). If so then yeah it would be pretty amazing as a DPS (and a bit worse for a tank).

#15 Pintofbrew

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:23 AM

Tanks may see similar value in that it guarantees their rotation, so if they're getting bursted heavily in intermittent spurts, being able to frontload that extra rune regen might be optimal.


As a tank I wouldn't consider anything but Runic Corruption. BT risks not giving you a DS and RE only gives you half a DE if you juggle it correctly. Tanks don't have nearly as much turnover rate of runic power as either FR or UH and as such the 100% reliability and the fact that it cleanly gives you both U and F runes makes it vastly superior. Provided they don't do something funky and leave DS being our mitigation tool and costing UF, there's never a scenario when you wouldn't prefer Corruption. It's like straight-up raw haste.

Frost works with rune pairs but has the uniqueness that the DD runes fill-in the gaps. Successive RE procs can't -not- give you an OB, as it's impossible to proc any two runes and not be able to obliterate with them. Frost has an incredibly high rate of burn of runic power and the RE procs are not an issue. Blood on the other hand doesn't get nearly as many RE procs over time and has to set everything up specifically to take advantage of them, which is annoying at the best of times as. Corruption on the other hand is smooth and non-intrusive.

#16 Guest_Acediar_*

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:47 AM

Let me summarize my views on the talents
15 Rolling Blood: Could be useful for Blood DK during trash or bosses with adds go get aggro during bosses with adds
Corpse Explosion: Not very useful, if a mob died this quickly, spreading diseases isn't worth it
Outbreak: My skill of choice, slight DPS increase on single target (1 OB per min)
30 Lichborne: Only if a boss fears
Anti-Magic Zone: Perfect raid CD
Bone Shield: If we don't need AMZ
45 Death's Advance: Bosses with slows are rare
Chillblains: Finally we can quickly get it without losing DPS
Asphyxiate: Doesn't sound very appealing, even if a mob needs CC we are taking out as well plus we lose Strangulate
60 Death Pact: Same old
Death Siphon: Costs Death Runes, if a boss requires me to heal myself due to isolation, needs be be checked for actual DPS
Vampiric Blood: My choice, the increased healing does more than the other option could
75 Blood Tap: The cooldown needs adjustment probably not the final number otherwise it falls safely in the "3 DS/FS gives 1 rune" number but due to the nature of activating even a nearly recharged rune it's not worth the hassle even if the 1min CD is lifted completely
Runic Empowerment: again you need roughly 3 stikes to get a free rune 100% but still random
Runic Corruption: My weapon of choice, not only is it not random but increases regeneration of all the runes

This tier needs calculation
90 Gorefiend's Grasp: Doesn't seem to taunt but the application during bosses is rare, even if your tank needs to pull many whelps together they mostly can do that on their own
Remorseless Winter: Direct DPS increase and good during add phases if they aren't immune to stun
Desecrated Ground: In my experience boss CC usually overrides immunity

So, let's assume a "normal" fluffy pillow boss, unless a mechanic forces us to choose otherwise I would go with:
Outbreak, Bones Shield, Chillblains, Vampiric Blood, Runic Corruption, Remorseless Winter
as a default boss setup

#17 Yörgle

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:20 PM

Comparative between rank 5 talents (rune regeneration) :

First, I want to mention that I'm well aware about the fact that RC >> RE and BT. The purpose of this post is to formalize it properly in order to be absolutely sure about that fact and (more importantly), to be able to calculate the talents' efficiency as soon as the figures vary during the bêta.
Also, I obviously consider that the CD on BT is a glitch. (Having the 5.0 BT working with 1 min CD makes absolutely no sense, as it will make it so so far behind RC and RE).

I will compare each talent in term of efficiency, but will begin to calculate the efficiency by rune : E = (rune gained) / (RP-ability used). The reason why I calculate this value first, is the trickiness of RC, as you'll see. ^_^

Blood Tap : Each DC / RS /FS gives a Blood Charge. Using BT with 3 charges gives a fully depleted rune.
→ Very easy : E = 1 / 3 (one rune gained for 3 RP-abilities used)

Runic Empowerment : Each FS / RS / DC has 45% chance to give a fully depleted rune.
So 0.45 rune for 1 RP-ability gives :
→ E = 1 / 2.22

Runic Corruption : Each FS / RS / DC increase by 100% rune regeneration for 3 seconds.
This one is tricky. For the sake of having an easy calculation (for now !), let's say the rune regeneration time is 8s. In order to gain the equivalent of one rune, we have to have the RC buff up during 8 seconds (so during this time, a rune that would fully depleted -16 sec cd- would recharge in 8 seconds, ie an equivalent gain of one rune). /!\ Don't forget that we calculate efficiency by rune so I think as RC affecting only ONE depleted rune for the moment.
In order to have RC up for 8 seconds, we should have X procs. X = 8 / 3 = 2.67
→ E = 1 / 2.67

So we can see that by rune, RE > RC. (And as expected, BT is pretty shitty.)
However, it's quite obvious that most of the time, when you DS / RS / FS, you'll have more than 0 or 1 rune recharging. Let's say we have 3 runes recharging when using a RP-ability (seems pretty accurate as an average value) : E' = 3 x 1/2.67 = 1.12 (using one RP-ability gives more than one rune !)

Now basically, we can see that RC >>> other talents. However, this still is a particular case when t = 8s (recharging rune time) and N = 3 (number of runes recharging when DC/FS/RS -ing).


Generalisation :

The aime of this part is to be able to have the theorical tool to immediatly compare BT, RE and RC when the values into the talents will vary (as it will likely happen during the beta phase).

B : blood charge necessary to use BT
R : RE proc chance
C : RC proc chance
Tc : RC buff duration
t : rune recharging time
N : number of rune recharging

At the moment, if the beta would go out with current values, we'd have : B = 3 ; R = 0.45 ; C = 1 ; Tc = 3s.
t depends of your character, and N has to be averaged (imo N = 3 is OK but it's not important for now).

The three efficiencies are :
  • BT : E = 1 / B
  • RE : E' = R (you can calculate 1/R to write E' = 1 / (1/R) to comparate more easily to the others, as done above)
  • RC : E" = (C x Tc x N) / t

How to compare RE and RC :

As they might be the ones in competition, let's see how to compare them. If we consider that N is known (or a value for N is generally known as a good average), we want to know for a value of t (rune recharging time) depending on your gear / gems / enchants, if your character will benefit the most of RE or RC.

We'll then seek t = t', time for which :
E' = E"
<=> 1 / R = t' / (C x Tc x N)
<=> t' = C x Tc x N / R
If t > t' on your character sheet, you'll want to spec RE.
If t < t' on your character sheet, you'll want to spec RC.

Example with current values :
We have :R = 0.45 ; C = 1 ; Tc = 3s.

  • t' = 1 x 3 x 1 / 0.45 = 6.67 s, with N = 1
  • t' = 1 x 3 x 2 / 0.45 = 13.33 s, with N = 2
  • t' = 1 x 3 x 3 / 0.45 = 20 s, with N = 3
  • t' = 1 x 3 x 4 / 0.45 = 26.67 s, with N = 4
  • t' = 1 x 3 x 5 / 0.45 = 33.33 s, with N = 5
  • t' = 1 x 3 x 6 / 0.45 = 40 s, with N = 6
Obviously, unless you consider N = 1 (which doesn't seem realistic at all), RC is by far more efficient than RE.
All the calculation may seem totally unecessary, but keep in mind that when they'll change the values of B, R, C or Tc, we might have a use of this !


Feel free to point out any mistake in the calculation or in the formalisation. :)

#18 Guest_Acediar_*

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:43 PM

[SIZE="3"]
Runic Empowerment : Each FS / RS / DC has 45% chance to give a fully depleted rune.
So 0.45 rune for 1 RP-ability gives :
→ E = 1 / 2.22

That is not quite correct, I am still looking up the correct formula (haven't used stochastic in a while) and will report back it it diferes greatly

[b]Runic Corruption : Each FS / RS / DC increase by 100% rune regeneration for 3 seconds.
This one is tricky. For the sake of having an easy calculation (for now !), let's say the rune regeneration time is 8s.

It's modified by haste, it would be nice if you could check if it's usefulness goes up or down with more haste

#19 Yörgle

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:54 PM

That is not quite correct, I am still looking up the correct formula (haven't used stochastic in a while) and will report back it it diferes greatly

Ok thanks.
I don't understand why it's not correct, could you explane please ? (Not saying you're wrong but the TT seems pretty straightforward to me :-/ )

It's modified by haste, it would be nice if you could check if it's usefulness goes up or down with more haste

Actually I kind of did : the value of t' just after ! :)
Edit :
Spoiler

On the french forum, I have the formalisation with haste value but I didn't post it here for two reasons : some errors I didn't correct yet and, more importantly, with t' you can just check that value while raid buffed while with haste (% or score), it's not that simple (or is it ? :confused:).

But if you want i'll push the formalisation that far and we'll see where we're going with this.

#20 Guest_Acediar_*

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:00 PM

Ok thanks.
I don't understand why it's not correct, could you explane please ? (Not saying you're wrong but the TT seems pretty straightforward to me :-/ )


Don't even try to understand stochastic :D
Their is a certain formula I'm trying to find to calculate how many tries you need with a set probability to get at least one hit you have to use here. You can't simply use 1/.45=2.22..
As an example: The chance of rolling a 6 with 6 dice is only about 62%

The formula is (p)^n<=X with X=certainty of ONLY MISSES. Let's say you want 95% certainty (100% would give infinite)
which means n=>log(,05)/log(.45) = 3,7166 stikes to get 1 hit 95% of the time
Adjust X as you seem fit




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