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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#21 Yörgle

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:13 PM

Don't even try to understand stochastic :D
Their is a certain formula I'm trying to find to calculate how many tries you need with a set probability to get at least one hit you have to use here. You can't simply use 1/.45=2.22..
As an example: The chance of rolling a 6 with 6 dice is only about 62%

I'm pretty sure you are complicating things for no reason.
The equivalent of what you say with dices would be us looking the chances of "having a RE proc while using 10 FS/DS/RS". But what we're looking are simple probabilities : if we do 1000 FS, we'll have a number of proc close to 450.

And I'm pretty sure that's why the efficiency of RE is actually 0.45 : when you launch one RP-ability, you have 0.45 chance of having a proc, same for the next RP-ability (a launch are independant). In a 10 minutes long fight, you'll have 45% of your RP-ability giving a rune (again : launches are independant).


The bottom line being : I don't want to know what my chance of having ONE RE proc on many rolls is, but just how many RP ability, in average, I have to use to gain one rune.
Edit : In other words "I cast say X rp-abilities, I wanna know with which one I gain the highest amount of runes".

#22 Tyvi

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:25 PM

My thoughts:

Tier 1:
We already know that the Demo Shout debuff is gone (and with it, Scarlet Fever). What we don't know is if Frost Fever is still a tanking debuff or not. Either way, Roiling Blood looks best for AoE tanking and Outbreak might be good for single target tanking unless diseases are just threat/damage. Corpse Explosion might be situationally useful for a damage boost here and there, but it is probably not going to end up as the go-to-standard for Blood.

Tier 2:
Frankly, I dislike this tier. A lot. For tanks the choice is obvious: Bone Shield for personal use or AMZ if your raid needs it. Noone is going to spec Lichborne for PvE because it is so much inferior.
Seriously, there is so much wrong with this tier it's not funny. DPS DKs running around with a permanent 20% damage reduction in raids? Check. Every DK having a raid CD? Check.
Additionally, it really, really sucks to lose abilities you already had so Blood tanks are going to lose Lichborne even though they specced back the other talent they lost to begin with (Bone Shield).
But hey, atleast Bone Shield got it's rune cost removed and it only took them one expansion to do it. :v:

Tier 3:
Awesome tier.
Both Asphyxiate and Chillblains are good choices to go with. The latter works as ghetto-stun as well (root a mob, back out - think enraged Shamblers on Lich King) and Chillblains might synergize nicely with Corpse Explosion/Roiling Blood for non-Frost DKs.
Death's Advance is meh for PvE.

Tier 4:
Another stupid tier. Once again there is little choice for Blood. You pick Vampiric Blood which you already had before and try not to get annoyed about losing Death Pact which no spec will pick up. DPS will either go with VB or Death Siphon depending on the damage scaling.
Again, such a pity to lose a situationally cool ability like Death Pact but whatever.

Tier 5:
Runic Corruption wins hands down. Not much else to say here unless Blood Tap loses it's cool down, is off the GCD and can stack infinite charges in combat or something.

Tier 6:
Remorseless Winter is probably going to be prefered add/trash tanking tool for Blood. AoE stun is just yummy.
Desecrated Ground may have uses for bosses that incapacitate your DK as well (though being already a human, probably not that much).
And Gorefiend's Grasp will also be situationally useful.

Another great tier.

So in conclusion I am looking at three tiers that are great (3, 5 and 6), one tier I am indifferent about (1) and two more I absolutely loathe (2 and 4) and the latter all shares a common theme: They make you lose abilities you already had to begin with which leaves a bitter taste in your mouth when speccing for stuff to improve your character. What's the point of stripping away stuff you had just so you can respec it again but in the process lose abilities on top (Lichborne, Death Pact)?
I really don't think the tank CDs should be diluted like that and if you look at the other, non-DK classes they offer DPS good survivability abilities without butchering the respective tank tree to pull it off.

I really hope that these DK tiers were just not as far in development as, say, the Druid ones.

#23 Womb

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:22 PM

In your comparison of rank 5 Talents you should take into account that Blood tap gives you a death rune which is clearly better than some random rune.

The difference will of course depend on the numbers of the various abilities but for instance as a frost dk a death rune will probably be worth much more than a blood rune (Edit: bad example, see posts below).

So while it is still clearly inferior to RC it might come quite close to RE (of course ignoring the silly 1min cooldown of BT).

Regarding RC there might be situations where you e.g. DC twice in a row for some reason (maybe you are not in melee range) which would slightly reduce the effectiveness of RC (Edit: it actually Stacks, see post below).

Both Points are however hard to evaluate right now.

#24 Guest_Acediar_*

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:07 PM

The difference will of course depend on the numbers of the various abilities but for instance as a frost dk a death rune will probably be worth much more than a blood rune.


Frost doesn't have blood runes, their blood runes are per default death runes.

#25 Yörgle

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:53 PM

As Acediar said, it's not an issue for Frost DKs.
For Blood, we'll still have the "blood rune trick" which will be even less forgiving as we won't have to maintain BB (so basically, we spend the 2nd blood rune just before or just after the first one is recharged).
For UH DKs, I don't know which one is preferable, if the effeciencies were to be the same. I guess RC due to the fact that it's quite reliable...

Regarding RC there might be situations where you e.g. DC twice in a row for some reason (maybe you are not in melee range) which would slightly reduce the effectiveness of RC.

RC actually stacks : if you DC (and there's a proc, as it still is a proc on live) while you have X sec remaining on the previous RC buff, you'll gain a RC buff that lasts x + 3 sec. So it's not an issue luckily. :)

#26 Groggan

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 06:01 PM

My thoughts:
Not much else to say here unless Blood Tap loses it's cool down, is off the GCD and can stack infinite charges in combat or something.


This I think is what Blizzard will have to do to make Blood Tap at all attractive. They'll likely also have to play with the number of required Blood Charges to control the power of it.

Basically, this would set it up so that Blood Tap is good when you want to manually control your free-rune availability (e.g., save up enough for 4 free runes, then right after the big boss hit use them to do 3 DSes instead of 1).

RE could be tweaked to be attractive for specs and play styles that use an abundance of Runic abilities (so that it is better than the straight 100% rune haste from RC in the same situation).

RC could then be tweaked to be better than RE when you don't have an abundance of RP (so for a blood tank that doesn't care to manually control their free-rune availability or a dps dk that somehow doesn't use much RP).

This way style choice is allowed and all are attractive for different reasons (control, probable strength, consistency).

#27 Charybdis

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 05:00 AM

Some people might prefer Blood Tap over RE, assuming of course that there is no longer a CD on BT. The reason being is each RP ability used guarantees a Blood Charge. The other mechanics have a chance to activate an effect, which means RNG can screw over the DK.

The chances could use some work though. The difference between Blood Tap's 333/1000 compared to RC's 450/1000 is notable. Certainly players could game both abilities to get the most from them, but is the guarantee 1 in 3 no matter what worth the difference? I'd say that depends on the player, which is likely exactly what Blizz is trying to get at with these talents.

It's a difficult choice to make. Do I want the absolutely guaranteed runes? Do I want maybe a few more runes, but only a chance at getting them? Do I want a chance at faster rune regen instead?

I'd say Blizz did a damn good job coming up with these differences. I don't see the abilities themselves changing except for the percentage chances. Blood Tap's charge storage may be a hindrance, but I doubt they'd let it stack indefinitely.

As far as today's system goes, having infinite charge potential would essentially be worthless because no one in their right mind would use any more than five or so rune abilities in a row. It'd overcap our RP pool meaning we lose resources and thus lose potential ability use. My thought is they'll let use stack to get two or maybe three runes out of it and and just stop there since that would encourage us to keep mixing up rune and runic abilities instead of blowing a bunch of runes all at once.

As for taking away Blood's CD's then making us pick, it does feel a bit like salt in the wounds, but it might very well be necessary. If Blizz makes do on their promise to renovate tanking then every tank will be getting some sort of overhaul and rebalancing. Given their hints I'd bet they're making other tanks a bit more like DK's, which means either giving them a shit ton of CD's to cope or else finding a good middle ground where tanking isn't passive but no one will be in danger of being two-shot. Since the latter is more likely, they're lessening the CD's Blood will have because they'd be too powerful with the full set.

If it's for the better of the game then I have no problem giving up a CD or two.

#28 Tyvi

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:10 PM

Infinite stacks was a bit of a hyperbole, I admit, but Blood Tap definitely needs to stack at the very least to 6-9 charges so you can get 2 or maybe even 3 Runes back in a row. Otherwise I don't see myself using it at all because the alternatives are just so much better.

And to address our tank CD:
We are what other classes should be in terms of active mitigation, are we not? It just doesn't make sense to actually remove abilities that you need to handle and plan for (i.e. Death Pact and Lichborne) instead of giving other classes similar abilities. Having to juggle your smaller, but more plentiful tank CDs was part of the DKs charm and considering that Blade Barrier is gone, Runic Empowerment can be specced out of and more signs leading to dumb down Blood DK tanking I am not impressed with the way things are going.

And that's not even considering the fact that they want DPS DKs to run around with permanent Bone Shield and Vampiric Blood. I mean, what's up with that?

#29 Lerciolas

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:59 PM

I think with a little tweak Tier 5 could be great, without an hands down winner but with choices that affect playstyle.

Blood Tap could be great for burst if well implemented (as Liar said with the ability to reactivate more than one rune at the same time, like another Empower Rune Weapon), so a it could be used along with damaging cooldowns or in special phases on certain bosses.

Runic Empowerment could favor a more random and reactive gameplay, while Runic Corruption is a lesser but constant rune regeneration (and maybe still the safest choice, expecially as tank).
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#30 Tyvi

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:27 PM

Actually, Blood Tap activating only one Rune is fine as long as it's off the GCD and has no CD so you can just hit it twice if you need a pair. Having it activate more than one Rune if you don't want it to is also bad. :V

#31 EwokChilli

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:42 PM

Number will most likely be shifted so that BT isn't lightyears behind RE and RC.

The big difference between the "mechanics" is that BT doesn't punish you for using runic abilities while no runes are empty, but even as a Blood Tank I'd probably rather have RC to get more DS/minute. RC will probably continue to give the greatest benefit as long as 3 runes are off CD (which isn't difficult) and it doesn't require you to have fully depleted runes. RE will have it's place in any situation that you basically are HB spamming.

#32 Lerciolas

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

I saw it more like an aggressive cooldown to blow for burst DPS.
Having it with no cooldown and off gcd for sure makes it more versatile leaving the burst capability the same.
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#33 huntcaudata

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:27 PM

I'm trying to decide if Asphyxiate will be worth it for PvE. In case you missed it, the talent shown at Blizzcon had a "typo", and by that I mean it was almost completely wrong. At the Dev Q&A they explained that the talent will replace strangulate, and turn it into a stun instead of a silence, but it will otherwise work the same, i.e. instant cast, 5 second duration.

It seems to me that most of the time that will actually hurt in PvE since some things are interruptable, but not stunnable, and stunning trash is only helpful in the most niche of circumstances. Obviously it would still be handy on something similar to Rag.

#34 Nevinyrral

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:46 PM

I'm trying to decide if Asphyxiate will be worth it for PvE. In case you missed it, the talent shown at Blizzcon had a "typo", and by that I mean it was almost completely wrong. At the Dev Q&A they explained that the talent will replace strangulate, and turn it into a stun instead of a silence, but it will otherwise work the same, i.e. instant cast, 5 second duration.

It seems to me that most of the time that will actually hurt in PvE since some things are interruptable, but not stunnable, and stunning trash is only helpful in the most niche of circumstances. Obviously it would still be handy on something similar to Rag.


Pretty sure they said it'll silence if it cannot stun.

My tank on talents: Tanking
Tier1: Outbreak single target. Corpse explosion for aoe unless heavy movement. Why? because it does the same as roiling blood with damage done if a fresh corpse is near by. We'll see for fights
tier2: Bone Shield. IMO AMZ has never been a good PVE cooldown. It can be used with huge one hit abilities like a scythe on domo or stomp on rhyo if timed right as, from what I'm told, you can get the 75% reduction on everything even if it's more than the amount because of how blizzard handles it. It does not do well for sustained damage but again wait to see mechanics and what they do with this. I'd rather see it more a blood centric thing with a barrier effect.
tier3: Asphyxiate assuming crap won't be stunable and this works like a normal silence so the adds will still come in. Chillblains for kiting adds.
Tier4: Vampblood. Need I say more?
Tier5: Runic Corruption probably.
Tier6: Remorseless Winter because I want a cooler version of shockwave. I'll probably end up with gorefiend's grasp unless running with a druid tank. I do like that you can put this on an enemy or player and pull stuff to them. I could also see this being an issue. Imagine something like Maloriak where a DK fat fingers or miss clicks this and grips adds in while the other tank is running past picks up a straggler.

#35 Charybdis

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:26 PM

Infinite stacks was a bit of a hyperbole, I admit, but Blood Tap definitely needs to stack at the very least to 6-9 charges so you can get 2 or maybe even 3 Runes back in a row. Otherwise I don't see myself using it at all because the alternatives are just so much better.

And to address our tank CD:
We are what other classes should be in terms of active mitigation, are we not? It just doesn't make sense to actually remove abilities that you need to handle and plan for (i.e. Death Pact and Lichborne) instead of giving other classes similar abilities. Having to juggle your smaller, but more plentiful tank CDs was part of the DKs charm and considering that Blade Barrier is gone, Runic Empowerment can be specced out of and more signs leading to dumb down Blood DK tanking I am not impressed with the way things are going.

And that's not even considering the fact that they want DPS DKs to run around with permanent Bone Shield and Vampiric Blood. I mean, what's up with that?


The theory of active mitigation is nice, but we aren't exactly there. DK's tend towards more reactive mitigation which will hopefully be changed a bit. As far as dumbing down the tanking goes, it's probably needed to some degree. Some people like the large set of CD's, but many more find it too much to work with. As Blizz has said numerous times, one of their goals for the game in general is for it to be like chess: Short time to learn, long time to master. Learning the basics of DK tanking does not take a short time.

The issue of losing CD's making sense is subjective. If Blizz decided to give CD's similar to today's DK kit to every class, they'd have a nightmare of balance issues. Instead it is easier and more cost effective to take the CD's away and tweak the class so that it doesn't feel like those are as much of a loss.

Was Bone Shield such a big thing when it was Unholy only? Not really. Likewise, Vampiric Blood probably won't be such a big deal. It has a cooldown after all, and they'll undoubtedly tweak the CD.

#36 Tyvi

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

Was Bone Shield such a big thing when it was Unholy only? Not really. Likewise, Vampiric Blood probably won't be such a big deal. It has a cooldown after all, and they'll undoubtedly tweak the CD.


That was back when healer mana literally did not matter one bit. I don't know what their plans are for MoP but if they are not going to make mana matter, then I don't see the point of giving every class such huge survival buffs through the talents either. It wouldn't make sense. And if Blizzard isn't going to make mana matter, then your raid leader will by just bringing less healers and having their DPS just properly CD. This stuff makes a difference in DPS tuning.

It also makes no sense to tune down CDs like Vampiric Blood and Bone Shield because tanks are going to use the same abilities as DPS DKs. If they are going to make them crap then what's the point of a) handing them out as a "tough" choice and B) removing Death Pact and Lichborne from Blood while on top weakening VB and BS?

I also have to disagree with the fact that DKs are not an active mitigation tank. Maybe we are just not using the same definition of it (I take it you consider preventive measures like pushing Holy Shield or Shield Block as active while I consider the former and Death Strike just as active since it's not passive) but I like the class as it is. I can't speak for everyone, naturally, but I do hope DKs stay pretty much the same as they are now and instead Block capping gets broken so we won't have to deal with EH issues in MoP.

I mean, why dumb down all tank classes? If they keep the DK as it is then people who like the more advanced/reactive/active (whatever you want to call it) playstyle will stick with this class (or reroll to it even because they find that compelling). There will be 5 tanking classes in MoP and every one should play differently and we already have this for DKs. In addition, who is being helped if Blizzard changes how tank DKs work every expansion? Pick something and stick with it so people can adjust and flock to the classes they like.

(Either way, we probably wouldn't even have this discussion if DKs just got more abilities to pick from through the talents instead of having to spec back what they already had to begin with while losing some of them. Tank balance right now really isn't so broken that we'd have to revamp how Blood DKs work and which CDs they should have. Just fix block capping and that's that.)

#37 Charybdis

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 11:48 PM

I didn't say DK's weren't active, but it's going more into the semantics of active versus reactive. A DK's standard abilities are based on taking a hit then healing back up. We then get shielding based on the amount healed, so in essence our core mechanic is almost entirely reacting to what the mob does. Our CD's make up somewhat for needing to react, but it can be argued that those aren't truly active.

I didn't say all tanks should be dumbed down. Obviously Warriors and Paladins could use a redo since they're quite easy to play. Druids are in between from the looks of it. DK's, however, have a steep learning curve. Reading through the Blue posts it seems they'd like to ease up on that curve but still keep a good (re)active tanking model.

It makes pretty good sense to retune the CD's-turned-talents when we'll be getting a lot more core abilities through leveling the spec. We'll be getting compensation. There's also the fact that our current CD's might be too powerful in whatever new model of tanking they're developing. Yes it sucks to lose power once you've tasted it, but sometimes retuning that power is necessary.

Blizzard will change DK tanking until they get it right. Expansions come every 1 1/2 to 2 years, which is plenty of time to learn a class. Sure plenty of people might not understand why it was changed, but considering Blizz is a multibillion dollar corporation I'd say they have a lot more resources to know what's going on than pretty much anyone else.

#38 Tyvi

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 10:06 AM

We don't really know what we will get by picking Blood yet, for all we know we will get nothing in the way of CDs but this isn't going anywhere.
Either way, this is just speculation so I am willing to drop it but do keep in mind that Blizz is not infallible. Having been in the Cata Alpha, everything from Block cap being a problem, Raise Ally being turned into a combat res, Warriors getting a 10 sec interrupt, old Virulence getting made baseline etc was predicted and it took them quite a while to actually realize that and implement in the end. This is a big reason I am not just willing to believe things will be changed for the best and that us players don't know jack either.


Anyway, some more suggestions that could make some of our tiers more worthwhile:

They could make Tier 2 the raid CD tier by replacing Lichborne with the old Acclimation and turning the bonus into something raid wide (either keep it passive or make it an active ability), replace Bone Shield with Mark of Blood and keep AMZ as is.

Tier 5 could get Death Pact replaced and kept baseline. Instead you'd get a Death Pact upgrade that doesn't kill your pet (looking at the wording, that's already the case), slightly reduced CD and maybe giving you some form of damage reduction for X seconds after casting it as well. There are many ways to make it less bland.

Bringing back the old Vendetta (+4% max health heal) whenever you kill something would also fit pretty well in the current talent design.

EDIT: I also wonder what's going to happen to Runic Power Mastery. That talent was pretty useful for all specs.

#39 Charybdis

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

I have a feeling RPM will get baked into Frost's spec ability line. Assassination rogues have the "Assassin's Resolve" spec ability which used to be a talent, albeit deep in in the tree enough that other specs couldn't get it.

Acclimation would be nice, but it looks like Blizz is phasing out resistances in some areas at least. For example, they mentioned they'd like to get rid of resistance buffs like a paladin's Resistance aura and the shaman equivalent. Perhaps the ability to increase resistances will remain on some items and through elixirs or flasks.

Having Death Pact be baseline then have a talent to improve it would be pretty cool. Something akin to a warlock's Demon Soul ability would definitely feel powerful.

#40 Neepall

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:17 PM

Thoughts, questions, and assumptions from the talents. Overall, still mixed feelings, and some changes probably should and will happen to them. For the first view though, in all honesty, the grand scheme of it seems fitting. All things considering a fight by fight basis will still need to occur.

T1 Disease spreading. Monkeys from Africa all around.

Rolling blood-
A good QoL change for blood, since +damage stuff will be baseline may not be as big of difference between aoe and st tanking now. Interested to see if it could go back to the blood dot rolling/refreshing.
Unholy may get some good use out of this for aoe centric fights, as outbreak is rarely used.
Explosion-
If that would be the max level tooltip it seems to be fairly undertuned for it's cost. Possibly dropping it to 10(ish?) rp, may put on par, but I don't really see much use out of it. Barring funsie action.
Outbreak-
Frost of course, with RB change I feel that would be better for blood. Unholy seems this would get used more in pvp.

T2- Judgement Day - Reactive, raid, and personal cooldowns, respectively.

LB-
Leaning more towards pvp, sad to lose it as a cd though.
AMZ-
A niche cd. Still seems like it would only be useful in few situations. Possible to see an increase of absorb or cd reduction.
BS-
Yes it is sad to have to spec into this now, but falling in line with the other two above it should be this way. Kinda the choices of what you need more at the time. This kinda has the feel now like the old idea of mt/single target tank(blood) Aoe tank(frost) and mitigation tank(unholy) choices we had in early wrath.

T3 Movement, snare, and control.

Death's advance-
Unless a boss starts snaring may only get to see some action in pvp. Even then, chilli is stronger.
Chilblains-
Add kiting Not much to say here.
Asphyxiate-
Overall may turn to be the better choice. Strangulate gets a stun. My strangulate and warstomp get used often, so I see valid uses for this.

T4 Self healing.
This tier will probably see some changes in the months to come. VB would be the better all around choice, currently.
Note VB's hp is 15% increase and healing taken by 25% in the preview so glyph will probably be gone or possibly be made to be similar to rallying cry.

T5 Frankly math and fight would have to be the factor here.

T6 Party time.

This is where it gets interesting to see how things work out.
GG-
First off, great acronym for it as stated already. IIRC Blizzard stated this will replace DG like asphyxiate does. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to see it keep the taunt of dg. If it does I will probably die a lot, but that is neither here nor there. If it doesn't keep it; some great utility has potential to arise from it. (or havoc) BG's are probably going to be hell with this.
Remorseless Winter-
Extremely excited for this being frost MS. 1 min cd would put it in line with PoF; so could possibly fall into rotation if scales well enough.
Desecrated Ground-
Seems to be directed at pvp, but both of the others seem to be on par with the other 2(for pvp purposes). Could this work on mechanics like Cho'gall worship? Probably limited pve use, but Blizzard may throw a curve ball. Could be seeing more fights with mechanics like that.




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