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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#41 Yörgle

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:53 PM

T5 Frankly math and fight would have to be the factor here.

Maths already done one page 1 ! ;-)
(Even with the generalized formula to compare talents when they tweak values)

#42 Tyvi

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

There is more to it than just math though, atleast for tanks.

Even if Runic Corruption is slightly worse than Runic Empowerment it would still be prererable because it's not RNG dependent and it increases our DPS because it benefits Blood Runes as well which you don't have to game (and who is going to say no to "free" DPS let alone more RP from being able to Heart Strike more often?).

The only unknown factor currently is Blood Tap. It has the potential to be freakin awesome if it's off the GCD, has no CD and can stack enough charges to refund up to 2 or 3 Runes immediately. It would allow us to compensate damage spikes with damage lulls which would be great if they keep the Blood Shield design as it is (which I hope they do): Build charges when you are getting full absorbs/avoidance streak and then cash them in when the boss connects every hit etc.

I am actually quite excited to see what will happen to Blood Tap and I hope I won't be disappointed because Blood Tap could also turn out to be utterly shit if Blizz doesn't work it out properly.

EDIT:

To give an idea of how I expect things to work out:

RE will turn out to give you the most Runes on average per Runic Power dump.

RC is going to be the second best because it trades some RNG for some reliability (you can't choose which Rune you will get). This has to come at some cost or RE wouldn't even be in the running.

BT is going to give you the least Runes on average because it trades even more RNG for the most control/on demand Rune availability (but, as said above, this has to have a deeper reserve than just 1 Rune max or it's not going to be worthwhile).

Even in this scenario, I would wager tanks would either go for RC or BT depending on the boss and your needs. DPS specs might stick with RE but they will most likely also go with RC in most cases.

#43 Tyvi

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 02:47 AM

So apparently the Demo Shout debuffs stay in but instead the attack speed slow goes away in MoP. Blizz wasn't sure which of the diseases would apply that debuff but here is to hoping it will be Frostfever, simply because it can be applied from range.

That also means Outbreak is back to being useful for tanks in 5.0 for single targets.

#44 Kaejin

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:28 AM

Death Knight Talents disappointing for tanks - Forums - World of Warcraft

As of our current plan for 5.0, Blood Tap has no cooldown, is off the GCD, and can store up to 6 charges.


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#45 Yörgle

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 03:31 PM

Meh... The only way you can use it correctly is by having only your B runes on CD and use it twice in a row.
For a less efficient talent (by far) and given how complicated to achieve that without having F or U runes off CD for too long, I really think it's not worth at all.

The only situation I can imagine is if you know you'll need several DS in a row at a specific moment (and for that, we might as well save ERW for when needed).
Of course the numbers may change but at the moment, RC is the rank 5 winner by far.


Good news that tanking debuffs are not gone at all. :)

#46 Tyvi

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:18 PM

Blood Tap can activate any depleted Rune as Death Rune so it still works out okay. 6 charges is good but 9 would have been even better.

And I am not sure that tank debuffs still being there is such a good thing. We'll have to wait until we see some more news but if DKs end up as the only tank that has to give up survivability once again to apply them then that would suck.

#47 Yörgle

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:39 PM

And I am not sure that tank debuffs still being there is such a good thing. We'll have to wait until we see some more news but if DKs end up as the only tank that has to give up survivability once again to apply them then that would suck.

I assume that OtB-30 sec CD will still be a part of Blood Perks.
If not, it wouldn't make no sense as this change shows that developpers got the problem you pointed out.

Also, it's very likely that debuff might cost survivability for bears and warriors (as rage may participate in their survivability -cf recent Q/A). For pals, I have no idea though.

#48 Tyvi

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:21 AM

Since this thread is/was supposed to be more than just the MoP talent discussions, I figure this will fit in here, too.

How do you guys feel about Blood DKs in MoP?

Honestly, I am quite worried right now. I fear they might dumb the class down too much since they already removed 2 cool downs (I already went over this, so just mentioning this for completeness' sake) and they also were eyeing a Blood Shield redesign that was about pooling up Blood Shield that reduces your damage taken. It is not explicitly mentioned but that means that Blood Shield would stop absorbing full hits and only do partial absorbs (or you obviously could not maintain the pool - just like we cannot do it now).
What this means is that timing Death Strike pretty much becomes obsolete. No more watching for avoidance streaks, no more DSing after taking 3 unavoided hits and no more buffering a predictable burst with a big Blood Shield either. I would be quite disappointed if they remove pretty much the only thing DKs will have going for them in MoP. Believe it or not, the (re)active playstyle is fun and engaging.
But now that Blade Barrier is going to be passive in 4.3, Runic Empowerment is optional in 5.0 and Blood Shield is probably not going to be reliant on DS timing anymore, what exactly do we have going for us in terms of fun? It's like we are devolving back into a DPS that just happens to attack from the front, a huge step back from where we are now. With threat as boring as it is, these are the only things that actually make me want to keep playing a tank. Remove that and I don't know if I could do it for another expansion.

Am I the only hoping that this Blood Shield change doesn't come to pass? Especially since block capping (the sole reason for the redesign) is being broken in MoP?

#49 Yörgle

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:44 AM

What worries me is that war and pal masteries are the same in the MoP preview than in current game...

#50 Tyvi

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:25 PM

All masteries appear to be same so I wouldn't worry much about it. Glancing over the new spec skills it looks like Blood is losing Obliterate, Festering Strike (which both don't matter one bit), Crimson Scourge, Bladed Armor, Blood-caked Blade, Abom's Might, Improved Death Strike and Butchery.

Rune Strike is now a Blood only skill but still requires Blood Presence. Every DK gets On a Pale Horse, Mind Freeze now costs 30 Runic Power with the talent to reduce the cost gone, no spec gets Runic Power Mastery or Icy Reach.

The only CDs you get from speccing Blood is WotN, Rune Tap and DRW. AMS and ERW still available baseline.

It mostly looks like the talents got hastily meshed together with very little tooltip changes at all so not sure what sort of feedback to give. :/

EDIT: The new DK spell is also pretty bad. It's just a useless CC spell since Blizzard is dumb enough to put respawnable and controllable undead mobs just before a raid boss so you can use it as a DPS boost.

EDIT2: They actually removed Dark Command from non-Blood? Oo

#51 Stu

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:30 PM

The term "useless" and "CC" would seem to be at odds with each other, no? We've been in serious need of a CC spell, and now we're getting one, so i fail to see why exactly you would deem that useless. It may not increase dps, but our utility goes up a bit, especially with Hungering Cold being removed entirely.

The Dark Command thing has to be an oversight or something, i don't see any other tank classes losing the ability to taunt when not tank specced.

#52 Tyvi

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:36 PM

It's useless for two specific reasons:

1) It is too specific because it only affects undead mobs. The damage portion is also not going to be important for anything but trash/5 mans.
2) I really, really doubt we will get heroics as hard as on Cata release anymore with all the nerfs they threw at this game. And even back then, you could definitely run your heroics with one or maybe two max CC classes.

I just wish we had gotten something more universally useful than this.

EDIT: Either way this talent comes one expansion too late.

#53 Tyvi

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:17 AM

Sorry for the double post but since the last post has been made a couple hours ago and it's on a different topic, I hope it's fine.

So looking at our new talents again and it makes me wonder why stuff like Magic Supression and Runic Power Mastery is simply removed instead of made into talents? An ability like Lichborne could easily be made baseline so I am sure these talents would be able to fit somewhere. Also, what happened to Sanguine Fortitude? Are we really supposed to be using a 20% IBF in addition to losing Death Pact and Lichborne on the next expansion? Also where did Runic Focus go?

And still no Mark of Blood in the talents even though it would make sense to put in the same row as Anti-Magic Zone (I am only mentioning this because according to Blizz player demand/feedback is what got Corpse Explosion back and MoB was one of the other talents people wanted back in the Alpha/Beta).

On the note of Corpse Explosion, I wonder if we can also tie this into Runic Empowerment/Corruption/Blood Tap so it counts as one ability that can proc these abilities. Using RP abilities that can't regen Runes might feel a bit weird.

Also, why are Blood DKs still the only tanks that don't get passive crit reduction that's not tied to their tanking presence?

I also wonder if Heart Strike could get a useful secondary use that's not just doing damage. Like applying or refreshing diseases and tank debuffs. It feels a bit bland as it is. If that doesn't happen, I'll just ask my Ret Paladin to keep up the -10% damage debuff up for me with his Hammer of the Righteous (which is AoE, to boot) so I can run diseaseless and save Runes for Death Strike just as we did in 4.0. It would be rather ridiculous to see a DPS class having an easier time keeping up tanking debuffs than the designated Blood DK but whatever. :v

And lastly, no tank seems to be getting bonus Expertise except us (which probably is only because it's copy and paste to begin with). Does that mean we all still have to deal with ridiculously high boss parry in MoP or is that gone for good? What does this mean for Death Strike; will it remain in the 4.2 or 4.3 functionality? What about Blade Barrier? Will we get the 4.2 functionality back as well?

Our talents really seem to be most incomplete of the bunch. <_<

EDIT: Haha, I just counted what we are gaining and losing as Blood. And the end result was not good. We are actually losing more going into the next expansion than we gain which I am sure cannot be intended.

Talent Calculator - Game - World of Warcraft.

You can recoup your losses on 4 tiers by speccing it back, you lose 2 abilities (Lichborne, Death Pact) and get 2 new abilities back (whatever you pick in Tier 3 and Tier 6). So we are now at +/- 0.

We gain (a useless) spell with Control Undead but lose Runic Power Mastery, Icy Reach, original Blood Tap and Endless Winter. Oh and we gain On a Pale Horse. Neither of these abilities can even compare with Lichborne, "old" Blood Tap and Death Pact in terms of usefulness and while something like Remorseless Winter and Chillblains is nice, I am just not seeing why we should be excited about MoP from a Blood PoV.

#54 MÃœU

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:28 AM

I like some of the new spells but limit them to 90 only and keep the Cata talents for Deathknights as it's a nice set group and its hard to get a bad spec nowadays... I Don't see the benifet the the new MoP Talent system...I play a blood dk and i would love another taunt GG might come in handy but RT is very usefull.

#55 Omedus

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:41 AM

Please delete/disregard this post

#56 rh8452

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 04:55 PM

From a preliminary standpoint, what I'm seeing thus far is Blizzard throwing PVP balance out the window and focusing entirely on PVE. Many of these new abilities and class changes imbalance rated PVP in incredible ways which would be nearly impossible to properly balance. Unfortunately, our class happens to be getting a very short end of the stick in that regard thus far.

Things like Dark Command being removed from the DPS specs entirely, Hungering Cold's removal and having to choose between Death Pact and Lichborne are murder to DK PVP. A number of other classes are also losing key abilities and gaining little of benefit outside PVE. Whereas some classes which are already in a good place PVP wise are getting even more control, flexibility, and QoL improvements. Not to mention adding an entirely new class to have to balance would also consume a huge amount of dev time.

I believe Blizzard is planning to simply stop focusing on rated PVP balance altogether with Mists and focus entirely on PVE, with battlegrounds and arenas remaining ingame but no longer being a primary developer focus - somewhat the way things worked in TBC.

#57 Valestik

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:29 PM

From a preliminary standpoint, what I'm seeing thus far is Blizzard throwing PVP balance out the window and focusing entirely on PVE. Many of these new abilities and class changes imbalance rated PVP in incredible ways which would be nearly impossible to properly balance. Unfortunately, our class happens to be getting a very short end of the stick in that regard thus far.

Things like Dark Command being removed from the DPS specs entirely, Hungering Cold's removal and having to choose between Death Pact and Lichborne are murder to DK PVP. A number of other classes are also losing key abilities and gaining little of benefit outside PVE. Whereas some classes which are already in a good place PVP wise are getting even more control, flexibility, and QoL improvements. Not to mention adding an entirely new class to have to balance would also consume a huge amount of dev time.

I believe Blizzard is planning to simply stop focusing on rated PVP balance altogether with Mists and focus entirely on PVE, with battlegrounds and arenas remaining ingame but no longer being a primary developer focus - somewhat the way things worked in TBC.


One could only hope.
I understand that for pvp players this might be terrible, but how many times have death knights in particular had certain aspects of the class reduced because in pvp it was too strong? Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll separate the two aspects completely, and just add more fights in game with control, or let classes have a mixture of those imbalanced builds for non-rated pvp. I mean I'm just speculating, but so are any of us.

#58 Yörgle

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 02:38 PM

I also wonder if Heart Strike could get a useful secondary use that's not just doing damage. Like applying or refreshing diseases and tank debuffs. It feels a bit bland as it is. If that doesn't happen, I'll just ask my Ret Paladin to keep up the -10% damage debuff up for me with his Hammer of the Righteous (which is AoE, to boot) so I can run diseaseless and save Runes for Death Strike just as we did in 4.0. It would be rather ridiculous to see a DPS class having an easier time keeping up tanking debuffs than the designated Blood DK but whatever. :v

Tanking debuff are clearly not it the DK preview, imo.
You can see that the warrior's TC now reduce physical damage by 10% while FF still reduces attack's speed as it currently does, and even if this debuff is going to disappear in MoP). So I think that, with a 30sec OtB, we'll certainly be able to keep our debuff up without sacrifying runes.

The closer I look to the DK preview, the more I feel like it's not that much reliable as many important (vital, actually) things miss.
As you mention it, we have a lot of copy/paste in our preview so we might as well wait a little longer before being sure of anything. ^^

#59 Tyvi

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 05:20 PM

One could only hope.
I understand that for pvp players this might be terrible, but how many times have death knights in particular had certain aspects of the class reduced because in pvp it was too strong? Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll separate the two aspects completely, and just add more fights in game with control, or let classes have a mixture of those imbalanced builds for non-rated pvp. I mean I'm just speculating, but so are any of us.


Personally I don't PvP myself but I don't fully agree with your view either. Sure, PvP can get PvE abilities nerfed but it's not like it can't benefit us in PvE either. I doubt it's a long stretch to call Lichborne a shining example of a primary PvP ability that ended up being useful for in PvE as well. Chillblains might be another contender.

Tanking debuff are clearly not it the DK preview, imo.
You can see that the warrior's TC now reduce physical damage by 10% while FF still reduces attack's speed as it currently does, and even if this debuff is going to disappear in MoP). So I think that, with a 30sec OtB, we'll certainly be able to keep our debuff up without sacrifying runes.

The closer I look to the DK preview, the more I feel like it's not that much reliable as many important (vital, actually) things miss.
As you mention it, we have a lot of copy/paste in our preview so we might as well wait a little longer before being sure of anything. ^^


Yeah, I agree. No news is good news in my eyes. The current Blood DK playstyle is great as it is so I hope we go into MoP with very little to no change at all. I am somewhat worried they will mess it up when I look at what they did to Warriors though, so who knows. D:

#60 Dkbel

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:22 PM

I personally think RC is a more useful talent. RC says it increases rune regeneration by 100%, meaning all your runes generate twice as fast, meaning three runes generate each 3-4 seconds. With a 3 second duration, it's pretty much like giving you constant attacks.

It looks like it will eliminate those moments of low DPS result of no runes left when on a burn phase.




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