Jump to content


Photo

Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


  • Please log in to reply
723 replies to this topic

#21 Daylis

Daylis

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:29 PM

Insect Swarm going to one target only personal CoE.

Lunar Shower being baselined in it's current bad state. I bet they'll force us to take it somehow, even if we don't want to learn it. Let's face it, no one wants to learn it now.


What we're looking at is a MAJOR nerf in our biggest strength - multitarget fights. It kinda was expected, given warlock changes in the past when they were in the same spot. It may even be wanted, we are beasts on fights involving multiple targets, but this leaves us with only 1 strong dot without (or with major hassle) being able to camp solar for Wild Mushrooms.
Warlocks at least, have the option of keeping Shadow Embrace, if not Haunt, on 2-3 targets at once, providing some strong longterm multitarget dot cleave. We won't have that, with IS being limited to one target only.


On the other hand, Nature's Grasp being back to 1 charge pleases me and Symbiosis has some very interesting implications. Symbiosis may just give us another, even bigger than current DI "If only we had xy spec in our raids..." (Yes, i raid 10man)


I just noticed.. We lost Earth&Moon from Wrath/SF/WM, but Warlocks still have CoE for 8% magical damage. Assassination rogues also seem to have lost the debuff, while Unholy DK's retained it.

#22 Panthros

Panthros

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:44 PM

Seems Bears will have like a Crusader's Strike rotation with the new form of Savage Defense as an attack rather than a passive, but my question is, 60% damage reduction for 3s with no cd? Isn't it a lot of dmr? To compensate that, would bears have little windows of no mitigated damage, as Blood's DK have now? Wouldn't this change make us a lot of more squishable?

#23 nephyron

nephyron

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:56 PM

I think that having only one dot will destroy our dps while moving (and lunar shower is stil in its current bad state)

#24 Shelendil

Shelendil

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:32 PM

Resto druids gain:
Regrowth glyph is part of the baseline spell
Living Seed is passive
Ironbark - 20% damage reduction cast on target, 2 min cooldown
Wild Mushroom: Bloom - Causes mushrooms to heal all allies within 6 yards
Easy options to pick up Feral Swiftness, Typhoon, and Vortex

Resto druids lose:
Nature's Grace
Nature's Bounty - the portion that provides haste for Nourish
It would be disappointing to lose the above as the haste effects and interaction provide more interesting gameplay.
Also missing are Gift of Nature and of course the talents that boost x spell by x%. I can only assume the resto tree is unfinished.

#25 Kluian

Kluian

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 244 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:06 PM

*edit*

Thought they removed starfire as a seperate spell but it's now a balance only spell.

#26 Shelendil

Shelendil

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:07 PM

Do druids even have Starfire as a seperate spell anymore? I don't see it on the list?

Will the spell change from wrath to starfire depending on your eclipse state?


Starfire is listed as a moonkin-specific spell at level 10.

#27 spiritryu

spiritryu

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:09 PM

Do druids even have Starfire as a seperate spell anymore? I don't see it on the list?

Will the spell change from wrath to starfire depending on your eclipse state?


Looks like Starfire is spec specific. Balance only.

#28 Kluian

Kluian

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 244 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

Cyclone has 20yard range and without the talent it will be awkward for a 40yard class to run within 20yards just for cyclone


They might introduce a glyph for it to extend the range.

#29 Stommped

Stommped

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:15 PM

As far as Lunar Shower being passive (which we all saw coming a mile away), keep in mind that they will be attempting to make Hurricane AoE in Lunar rival that of WM in Solar. Being that Insect Swarm dotting has been removed, there should be no desire to sit in Solar Eclipse. If WM is still outdoing Hurricane by a noticeable amount, we still will have the option of Starfiring in Solar as we wait to detonate on a big AoE pack.

As far as 2 target multi dotting, lilke V&T or HM Morchok, it will just take more staggered dot applications to avoid the energy lost (unless you are outside Eclipse in which you can just multi dot normally and benefit from the energy gain). MF, IS, SF, SF on Target 1 then MF on Target 2, back to SF on Target 1. At this point you should be free to refresh dots when they fall off without losing energy.

This obviously is far more tricky with 3 or 4 targets so we'll likely have to sacrifice at least 8 energy in those situations to keep all targets Moonfired. The biggest problem with this talent is that its' goal of providing on the move DPS is arguably not achieved. Is it worth it to spam MF on the move if you will take yourself out of Eclipse when you finish moving? Is it worth it to spam MF if you will overwrite an Eclipse MF with an Uneclipsed one? If the answers are no then they need to buff the damage to ensure that the goal is achieved.

#30 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:51 PM

Trying to guess how much Wild Mushrooms would heal for (if thrown in at 85, and other spells remain unchanged). To integrate into current rotations on a regular basis:

1) Assuming current WM mechanics (cost, cast time, limit of 3, ...).

2) Assume that as an upper bound it should be weaker (either HPM or HPET) than both regrowth and HT on a single target. That means no more than ~22k/mushroom on average (TreeCalcs HPET for HT)

3) Assume as a lower bound, WM should be better (HPET and HPM) than Rejuv, given 3+ targets. If not, we won't use it very often. That means at least ~17k/mushroom (TreeCalcs Rejuv with Symbiosis, HPET ~51k).

That would mean you get ~17-22k/mushroom. I can't really see them going that high (ability to set up a ~60k no-gcd instant AoE heal every ten seconds seems a bit much). Maybe my assumption #3 is too stringent. In that case, WM won't even be in your AoE rotation, except as an emergency heal that you set up in advance when things aren't too busy.

It also seems likely to have an AoE cap in the 5-10 target range to prevent excessive stacking.

#31 Sabthalion

Sabthalion

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:00 AM

I don't get one thing:
- Balance loses Nourish, Lifebloom, Regrowth (it has still Rejuvenation, Healing Touch and Tranquillity)
- Resto loses Insect Swarm, Mushrooms: Detonate, Starfire (it has still Wrath, Moonfire, Hurricane)
How a talent like Heart of the Wild could work, if we would not have the most spells?

#32 Balancemoon

Balancemoon

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 129 posts

Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:59 AM

Generally, I like a lot of the abilities they've done for MoP - they have given druids a large list of new things, more than any class, - one of the particular reasons I like the new abilities is because they are all having some use for balance druids. It's a lot of much needed utility.

For restoration Wild bloom made me smile because of the longed for healing version of detonate a filler for effloresence. Especially with changes to aoe healing. Symbiosis looks very exciting for every druid spec especially if it may let you choose which ability you receive.

My disappointment so far with the balance spec is depsite the sheer volume of new stuff, none of it really affects the balance casting that remains unchanged. They did not give anything inspiring with regards to the range dps role, and that is a shame because it could really benefit from getting something fresh, If MoP lasts 2 years, it would be 4 years of the same stuff. Did you notice how nicely balanced the lunar and solar wings are? IS no longer does damage so we have moonfire/sunfire -- arcane storm/hurricane --- starfall against wild mushroom.

For spicing up I would say:
1. We could use a damage version of Lifebloom as a new spell. It could be called Moonflare and become Sunflare in solar. It would provide a much necessary second dot and give a new toy and almost new dynamic to the casting whiles mainting the solar/lunar balance neatly.
2. StarSURGE could definitely use the SURGE returned to it, as I can't shake it being another rehash of starfire & wrath with it just doing damage, starfire/and wrath have eclipse bar distinguishing between them, adding another spell for just the slight alteration to the power increment is weak and could use some extra excitement..still not sure why they can't make the Knockdown portion have "cannot be used more than once every x secs" clause. Should sort balance issues with shooting stars.

However my biggest gripe is Chosen of Elune form. I love the concept, I would much prefer that increasing damage by 20% on cooldown could be a spec ability, and Chosen of ELune form, if you select Incarnation, would replace that spec ability and instead modify certain balance spells like ToL does for nature spells. It would be at least exciting, because finally you would have a 30sec period with a new type of rotation breaking the monotone.

Force of nature I would prefer if the Balance Spec also had a simpler "Awaken Treant" version in the spec ability that summons 1 treant instead that casts wrath/starfire. Selecting Force of Nature talent would replace this and allow you to summon 3 treants instead of one. And it is unclear whether you would be able to alter what the treants do, or they would only alter if you changed specialization, it would be prefereable if regardless of specialization you could command your treant to either cast wraths, cast lifeblooms, melee or share your damage taken and your specialization instead determines what the default function would be, but you could alter using the pet UI.

Notice also:
1. Wrath is 2.5 sec has not been adjusted to cope with the removed Starlight Wrath talent. Starfire is a balnace spec ability and you notice that the starlightwrath was weaved into it. I don't think it is game breaking if all druids had their wrats at a 2 sec cast --- unless it drops by 0.1 secs for each level gained to a max of 0.5.

2. No pushback resistance either. This i'm sure is an over sight, it would be bad not to have the extra protection their.

3. No mention of 200% spell criticals - I may assume that this has been baked into damage spells since the damage spell arsenal of all druids is significantly reduced (50% as they lose Starfire and Insect Swarm) , but it's still worth bearing mind.

#33 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 24 November 2011 - 04:14 PM

If Balance cast-time for Wrath stays at 2.5s (and damage stays at its current level), Lunar becomes much better than Solar for single-target (or 2 or 3 target bursts of less than 20s or so). In that system, SF takes 10% longer to cast than Wrath, but does ~50% more damage.

Frankly I suspect a tooltip error. With very limited (expensive) tools for controlling Eclipse timing making the Wrath-casting phases weak and long lasting (15 casts of a 2.5s spell to get from +100 to -100) does not sound like fun.

I also believe the live shooting stars proc rate is reasonable. With no IS DoT, the shooting stars percentage should roughly double, or MF should go to a 1s tick rate.

#34 Taringe

Taringe

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 22 posts

Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:23 PM

Also missing are Gift of Nature and of course the talents that boost x spell by x%. I can only assume the resto tree is unfinished.


I believe the intent is to eliminate all the "Increase x spell by y%" and bake them into the base spell, and apply this principle to all classes and specs.

#35 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:08 PM

I believe the intent is to eliminate all the "Increase x spell by y%" and bake them into the base spell, and apply this principle to all classes and specs.


It doesn't work when a spell is available to all specs, and intended for regular use by just one. They are "baking" that bonus into spec-specific tricks:

1) To keep Balance's Wrath stronger than other specs': Insect Swarm (<30%), Moonkin Form (20%), Eclipse (~25% on average)
2) To keep Swipe stonger for Ferals than for Balance/Resto; Savage Roar (<30%), Berserk
3) To give Resto a leg-up on Rejuvenation: Swiftmend, Swift-Rejuv, Meditation, Harmony

Frankly (2) and (3) may not really be enough. Optimal Moonkin strategy for short duration AoE (Eyes of Occu'thar) might actually become WM + Swipe. With Master Shapeshifter, his Swipe may hit as hard as a Feral's (using Savage Roar). That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is certainly different. He can't use Swipe nearly as often (GCD's for shape shifting, no Berserk or TF), but it may be strong enough to replace Hurricane in some situations.

#36 Balancemoon

Balancemoon

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 129 posts

Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:46 AM

Frankly (2) and (3) may not really be enough. Optimal Moonkin strategy for short duration AoE (Eyes of Occu'thar) might actually become WM + Swipe. With Master Shapeshifter, his Swipe may hit as hard as a Feral's (using Savage Roar). That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is certainly different. He can't use Swipe nearly as often (GCD's for shape shifting, no Berserk or TF), but it may be strong enough to replace Hurricane in some situations.


But then would it be better to swipe if you have Starfall ready to cast, you'd lose it in bear or cat form. I just wonder if that clause will go out of Starfall now that we're encouraging the hybrid side a bit more. It might be worth bringing up in the beta test next year.

Would be interesting to see also what the damage of a swipe will be for Balance druids popping HotW if they take that talent instead of MS. But off course for an Occu'lthar type fight MS would be the better option as the HotW might only be used once. Kills are taking less than 3 mins these days.

#37 a civilian

a civilian

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 25 November 2011 - 07:09 AM

Keep in mind feral is gaining a cat form version of thrash, so swipe will probably just be a filler AoE between thrashes.

#38 Daylis

Daylis

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 44 posts

Posted 25 November 2011 - 09:22 AM

A Balance/Resto swipe will not be as strong as Feral version because Thrash is going into feral only spec ability. While it'll increase cat AoE damage, balance&resto will be missing the 20% extra damage on Swipe because of the lack of bleed dot from Thrash.

It may very well still be worth shifting into cat for a swipe or two instead of casting Hurricane for boomies, when in sub 10sec aoe scenarios and/or with severe mana restrictions (hurricane is quite the mana sink).

Which i'd like really. It's subpar on the damage front while still giving us something to do when in a scenario like that.

#39 Cluey

Cluey

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 622 posts

Posted 25 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

Keep in mind feral is gaining a cat form version of thrash, so swipe will probably just be a filler AoE between thrashes.

I saw that as just a way of getting a bleed on everything so Swipe did more damage, currently the tooltip for Swipe says it does 20% more to bleeding targets.

Also people keep in mind that this is pre-alpha talents and abilities, as Bashiok said you need to keep this in mind before you do too much complaining. Given how much effort they have put in to keep things balanced and to make sure buffs and debuffs are covered little things like, Earth and Moon not doing increased spell damage, aren't intentional changes but more likely to be things that haven't been finished yet.

We wanted to take a moment to give some context to why the calculators were posted, and the permanence of the data shown. A lot of times we say things like "not final" and "may change" as verbal wiggle room should we decide we need to go a different direction, or are unable to complete something in time. In this case the Mists of Pandaria calculator data is essentially pre-alpha, and will absolutely change in many ways.

It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.

The calculator contains elements that are experimental, still in the process of implementation, or in some cases outright failed experiments that we already intend to revise or replace. Odds are good that if it looks like we’ve forgotten some critical piece of a particular class toolkit, it’s either accounted for elsewhere, or simply a data glitch (e.g., Prayer of Healing is currently absent from the calculator – we are not taking Prayer of Healing away from priests, and Devastate for warriors probably won't sunder armor 453%). Our hope is that revealing the calculator in this state will shed light on the philosophy behind our talent overhaul, and let you get a sense of how pieces of your core rotational gameplay, such as Hot Streak, Riptide, or Sudden Doom, fit into the new system.

The different classes are also at very different stages of design and implementation, and the fact that some mechanics changes we discussed at BlizzCon and in recent Q&As are not yet present does not mean that we have abandoned those ideas.

Any and all feedback is very welcome, but please keep all of the above in mind when considering the information in the talent calculator, and please keep feedback consolidated in the Mists of Pandaria forum: Mists of Pandaria - Forums - World of Warcraft



#40 a civilian

a civilian

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 25 November 2011 - 07:43 PM

Not that this necessarily excludes it, but if swipe were superior to thrash then you'd have the situation where feral AoE is improved by having an arms or prot warrior or another feral or guardian druid in the group.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users