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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#221 Rivkah

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:09 AM

Forgive me if I'm overlooking something obvious, but in that case, why aren't Worgen, Draenei, and Dwarves all ending up with the same DPS numbers?


Draenei have 1 more base agil than dwarves, so they're going to come out slightly ahead. The 11dps higher for BM seems about as expected. For MM the gap was 177dps and for SV it was 235dps, so it's possible that something weird is going on in simc there or possibly it's just the effect of RNG and me not running it on a high enough iteration count. I'll look into it.

With regards to worgen, worgen get 1% crit from their racial which is 600 crit rating. Draenei/Dwarf get 1% hit/expertise respectively which is only 340 hit/expertise rating, so they will naturally be lower as long as crit is a competitive stat.

#222 Repins

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

Hopefully this is the right spot for this. Stampede's current interaction with your pet is either very strange or bugged. If you're using the glyph it is creating identical copies of your pet all the way down to your pets cooldowns. Meaning if your pet has rabid on CD and you cast stampede, all of your pets will pop with rabid on CD. To prevent the micromanagement of that an easy work around is just to not use the glyph. That forces you to make sure all of your pets are specced ferocity, and none of your pets have growl on.

It's obviously nothing game changing but if you were using the glyph for whatever reason just be aware that you'll have to watch Rabid as well now. It seems to me like this would be a bug and the glyph should duplicate the same pet rather than creating an identical copy down to the cooldowns but I don't know. Either way something to be wary of.

#223 Serpent's Choice

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

The behavior that Lilbitters has seen with Dire Beast and inconsistent use of the full attack profile is very frustrating. I've spent some time trying to codify the situations where the dropped attacks occur. Unfortunately, this is the sort of situation that is also resistant to logging; I can provide dozens of "correct" and dozens of "missed attack" logs, but they are not informative as to the real-world conditions that resulted in the difference.

I believe there are two different situations which can result in a dropped attack, although they may actually be symptoms of the same problem. The most common source of a dropped attack is a delay prior to the first attack. Under "correct" behavior, the DB should make its first attack immediately after the button is pressed, but sometimes that doesn't happen. Minimizing the range to target seems to help, although I have some evidence, below the threshold of statistical significance so far, that extreme close range may slightly increase the chances of the first hit delay. Lilbitters reported that positioning in the rear arc may also be helpful; I have not tested that to any meaningful degree.

The second situation is a delay between attacks. Frequently, this happens between the first attack and the second, but I've got at least one log showing a delay after attack #5. This often (but possibly not always?) has a visual cue: the DB pet will "twitch", either repositioning slightly or spinning to face the hunter before returning to attack. I have also seen situations where real pets will exhibit this behavior. It's most visible while pet tanking, for obvious reasons, and is pretty much impossible to log, unfortunately. The Abomination of Anger in the Crypt of Forgotten Kings scenario seems particularly prone to this, and so may be a good target for further testing.

I suspect that the latter problem is a flaw in the pet pathing AI. The former may be as well; DB appears to summon the pet into a default position that the AI believes to be the "proper place" for combat to begin. If that placement doesn't play nice with the algorithm that determines if the pet is in the correct place to attack, it adjusts, and we see an attack delay. If that's the case, and we can find a test encounter that reproduces the bug consistently, we should be able to report it. I'm off for a couple days for my anniversary, so regrettably, I won't be able to do the heavy lifting on this, at least not for a few days.

I also haven't had the chance to determine whether glyphed Stampede pets inherit changes in pet autocast profiles. If so, there may be a reasonably viable workaround to the bug reported by Repins -- leaving Rabid autocast disabled, and only firing it following Stampede (and, manually, following the subsequent cooldown). In fights that are expected to last < 5 minutes, the correct behavior would be to use it on cooldown a second time (at t = 4 minutes), but in fights that are likely to see a second Stampede, optimal dps would probably require delaying the Rabid for paired cooldowns. In a sufficiently long encounter, the pushback from delayed Rabids would eventually consume the dps gain from paired use with iterative Stampedes, but I don't think there are any extant fights long enough for that to occur (and I think it's only a reasonable concern for BM besides). Regardless, I'm pretty sure that cooldown-state inheritance is a bug, so hopefully we won't have to deal with the problem for long.

#224 Endurah

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:51 PM

So I've been playing BM but all the hunters in my guild are Surv so I figured I'd give it ago, came on here to read up on some extra things about it and was wondering if Serpent Sting is even used in the rotation? I was looking at Lilbitter's recent post about BM MM and SV openers and saw nothing with Serpent Sting...

Any reason why? is the damage so insignificant due to the damage regained by Explosive Shot and others that it's not worth the time?

#225 Azortharion

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

snip


Edited by Azortharion, 02 March 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#226 Endurah

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:32 PM

The reason you do not see SrS in the SV opening sequence Bitterst came up with is because you should apply Serpent Sting with Multi-Shot as you got plenty of focus to do that at that point.

I don't know what you mean about not seeing Serpent Sting in there, I see it as the first ability used in BM and MM.


I was strictly talking about the SV set... and applying SrS with Multi on a raid boss seems to be inefficient use of focus.

*Edit* I saw what you are talking about the multishot portion in the spoiler... but is it worth it to use Multi shot on a single target boss vs serpent sting?

#227 Whitefyst

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

I was strictly talking about the SV set... and applying SrS with Multi on a raid boss seems to be inefficient use of focus.

*Edit* I saw what you are talking about the multishot portion in the spoiler... but is it worth it to use Multi shot on a single target boss vs serpent sting?


Remember that MS now applies a full SrS. Hence, it provides the full SrS damage that a SrS alone would do plus the MS damage to the single target. Hence, for 15 extra focus you get the additional damage from MS added to your SrS damage.

Considering that at the start of the fight you are getting extra focus from RF and DBx2 that the extra 15 focus is not really a big deal, especially if used when you get your first LnL since you know that the first focus free ES will more than regen that additional cost.

#228 Endurah

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:32 PM

Remember that MS now applies a full SrS. Hence, it provides the full SrS damage that a SrS alone would do plus the MS damage to the single target. Hence, for 15 extra focus you get the additional damage from MS added to your SrS damage.

Considering that at the start of the fight you are getting extra focus from RF and DBx2 that the extra 15 focus is not really a big deal, especially if used when you get your first LnL since you know that the first focus free ES will more than regen that additional cost.


I haven't been using Dire Beast as from the femaledwarf it has a lower DPS yield, and I've read several forums about how there is a delay in attacks, and when the boss moves that also is also a minus in DPS. Fervor is what I'm using right now.

#229 Serpent's Choice

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:46 PM

I haven't been using Dire Beast as from the femaledwarf it has a lower DPS yield, and I've read several forums about how there is a delay in attacks, and when the boss moves that also is also a minus in DPS. Fervor is what I'm using right now.


I'm not sure that I have much confidence in your sim results as general consensus has been that DB is the highest dps talent in that tier, both in terms of the simulator and real world expectations. It is absolutely true that real world DB sometimes (but not always) underperforms theoretical expectations, and research into that is ongoing. But the attack delay you have read about (perhaps including my own posts on it) doesn't ever drop more than 1 attack in realistic circumstances. If you're firing DB at a time where extensive boss movement / phase changes drop more attacks than the 0-1 lost to the initial delay bug or pathing twitch, you're using it wrong.

Meanwhile, the difference between MS and direct Serpent application is mostly moot. But during DB (or, sure, Fervor), it's a race to avoid focus capping anyway, and the extra damage from MS can be re-imagined as a 60% weapon hit, off GCD, for 15 focus. Which is good -- we'd use that button if it was a real power. If encounter mechanics make MS suboptimal, or the energy cost really bothers you for some reason, that's almost certainly the deviation from optimal behavior that would have the least real-world impact.

#230 Azortharion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:20 AM

snip


Edited by Azortharion, 02 March 2014 - 04:42 PM.


#231 Nooska

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

I am not sure what the bug with TotH has been, but I've seen it trigger from KC plenty of times. Regardless, I am pretty sure that the simming that has beendone has not been taking into account that TotH may not have been proccing as it should, so the sims don't change.
TotH is a nice soloing and questing tool, but when you need a rotation, it just doesn't pack that big of a punch single target since it can only be used on AS, and the difference isn't that big from the coS we would have been shooting anyway.
On the other hand DB is more focus, and more dpct than a lost AS or half a lost CoS.




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