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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#21 Nooska

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:27 AM

This is very true, Nooska. But you're operating under the assumping that it would work that way. Right now, we've got a 50/50 chance of either of us being right. I just can't see them allowing that to happen, though. Opens up a major can of worms from the stand point of balance amongst the classes (you'll hear people screaming all over the place) and just from the fact that you'd be able to CC a single target almost indefinitely. We don't need more ways to CC, we need better and more pheasable ways to do so.


I couldn't agree more with the last sentiment. I think, in the "real world" there is a greater than even chance that you will be right, simply because the way it is written now (in my reading and explanation) is simply too powerful a tool - even for a level 90 talent - though I most definately will be trying it out if the wording goes unchanged as soon as I get in the beta.

#22 Namarus

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:21 PM

Both Tier 1 talents insist it is auto-shots which are affected. Though the wording is not clear it seems to make sense that VTA would be the same.


I could argue the other very easily, since they do not state that it affect just auto shot if affects all shots. Uselessly speculative.

On another topic, what are people's thoughts on the potential ilevel squishing that may or may not happen?

Personally I think it may affect extreme soloing, but on the other hand it may make leveling easier along with gearing up less of a pain. If stats are going to be reduced would this make using leather pieces attractive once again? Will this make BM an attractive spec to play since it is less gear dependent?

A lot of questions, I hope they post more on the topic.

#23 Lilbitters

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 07:54 AM

With the confirmation of being able to Scare Beast out of a Transmorph Trap, it seems like hunters are going to be expected to maintain a rather ludicrous crowd control chain on a target (likely the healer to prevent dispels). Sure, it would be fun to grief a random person out in the middle of nowhere, but in an arena situation, we still would run into the issue of Scatter Shot pathing being unreliable at times, or another target eating the trap, as we still can't "target and apply" our traps.

Even with diminishing returns, a cleaver hunter could infinitely CC a target without any outside interaction.

PVP duration : Ability Name
04: Scatter Shot
08: Freezing Trap
08: Transmorph Trap (4 sec with Disorient DR)
10: Scare Beast
03: Intimidation
02: Pet ability Stun (1 sec with Controlled Stun DR)
---------------------------
30: total duration with DR, start chain again with Scatter Shot

While you would have to dismiss and switch pets once per cycle due to the 60 second CD on Bat's Sonic Blast, 45 second CD on a Wasp's Sting, or 45 second CD and BM requirement of a Shale Spider's Web Wrap (which also would last 1.5 seconds under DR), it's still pretty crazy, especially if you add in a real stun like Hammer of Justice or a Cyclone in place of the pet stuns, you will end up around 32 seconds and don't have that issue.

And yes, you do need some overlap to actually get everything to work. As neat as infinite CC sounds, I really hope we aren't balanced in PVP around the expectation that our CC will always land either. Mind you, I'm not really a PVPer currently, but am hoping to get more into it in 5.0 to try out the changes with no minimum attack range and the new MoP talents.
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#24 Namarus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:57 AM

With the confirmation of being able to Scare Beast out of a Transmorph Trap, it seems like hunters are going to be expected to maintain a rather ludicrous crowd control chain on a target (likely the healer to prevent dispels). Sure, it would be fun to grief a random person out in the middle of nowhere, but in an arena situation, we still would run into the issue of Scatter Shot pathing being unreliable at times, or another target eating the trap, as we still can't "target and apply" our traps.

Even with diminishing returns, a cleaver hunter could infinitely CC a target without any outside interaction.

PVP duration : Ability Name
04: Scatter Shot
08: Freezing Trap
08: Transmorph Trap (4 sec with Disorient DR)
10: Scare Beast
03: Intimidation
02: Pet ability Stun (1 sec with Controlled Stun DR)
---------------------------
30: total duration with DR, start chain again with Scatter Shot

While you would have to dismiss and switch pets once per cycle due to the 60 second CD on Bat's Sonic Blast, 45 second CD on a Wasp's Sting, or 45 second CD and BM requirement of a Shale Spider's Web Wrap (which also would last 1.5 seconds under DR), it's still pretty crazy, especially if you add in a real stun like Hammer of Justice or a Cyclone in place of the pet stuns, you will end up around 32 seconds and don't have that issue.

And yes, you do need some overlap to actually get everything to work. As neat as infinite CC sounds, I really hope we aren't balanced in PVP around the expectation that our CC will always land either. Mind you, I'm not really a PVPer currently, but am hoping to get more into it in 5.0 to try out the changes with no minimum attack range and the new MoP talents.


TBH this sounds pretty dubious, making the assumption that you have no pressure from the person's team mate. Although I personally would go with Wyvern Sting rather than the pet intimidation.

#25 Kaitain

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 12:47 PM

Whilst the ability to use back to back traps and also use Scare Beast on any player has the potential to be very powerful, it would be quite easy to disrupt as Namarus says. Skilled players can often intercept the first trap after a scatter shot, but almost anyone could interrupt the second trap, or even send a pet to stand on the trapped healer. Furthermore the Scare Beast cast would be so predictable that it would provide a clear opportunity to break the chain. The beast can move also (although slowed) so LoSing the fear is another option.

I'd expect them to address the problem by making Transmorph Trap share a cooldown with Freezing Trap (or all traps), rather than compensating with damage changes.

Interestingly it doesn't mention damage breaking the effect so using Transmorph Trap into Silencing shot might be a nice way to kill healers/casters.

#26 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 01:14 PM

I'd expect them to address the problem by making Transmorph Trap share a cooldown with Freezing Trap (or all traps), rather than compensating with damage changes.


I think that's unlikely. During the class balance Q&A they said that the point of Transmorph Trap was to have a CC that wasn't on the same CD as Freezing Trap, which is why they made it a nature school trap.

#27 Mericet

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 02:50 PM

With the official talent calculator out we can see what abilities are now granted as spec passives as you level up. Also worth noting is as of yet kill command isn't listed as a spec ability for BM but that's probably an oversight. It's easy enough to see which talents are sticking around; I'm more interested in which ones are getting cut. Here's a quick list of talents I've noticed are missing from the spec list:

Marksmanship:
- Efficiency (and baseline focus cost for chimera/arcane shot is listed as 50/25, so it hasn't just been integrated)
- Go for the throat and sic 'em
- Improved steady shot (very surprised here, this was a defining feature of MM)
- Piercing shots
- Rapid killing and rapid recuperation
- Post haste (the talent does not include the rapid fire cooldown reduction, so it seems MM will have a 5 minute rapid fire)
- Termination
- Resistance is Futile

Beast Mastery:
- One with nature
- Improved kill command
- Bestial discipline
- Pathfinding
- Improved mend pet
- Longevity
- Killing streak
- Ferocious inspiration (this seems like a mistake, or maybe it's granted for choosing the spec at level 10 but isn't listed?)

Survival:
- Imp serpent sting
- Hunter vs. Wild
- Pathing
- Survival tactics
- Point of no escape
- Counterattack
- Mirrored Blades
- Resourcefulness
- Toxicology
- Noxious Stings
- Sniper Training


As far as I can tell, the only thing we gained is focused aim for all specs (pushback reduction on steady/cobra shot), and otherwise nothing is particularly different about any of the things we did keep. I'm fairly sure this extremely far from finalized, since basically every spec lost a number of major, even spec-defining features such as improved steady shot, improved serpent sting, and ferocious inspiration, in addition to the obvious things that just reduced cooldowns or lowered focus costs.

Maybe some of those things are candidates for new prime glyphs. I suppose it would be slightly more interesting to have a prime glyph that gave the improved steady shot effect than one that just increases steady shot's damage.

#28 Lilbitters

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:55 PM

Newly released Mist of Pandaria Talent Calculator which not only has the previously known talent selections, but also the base class and spec talents learned while leveling.

Obviously, it's not finished so take it with a grain of salt, but still I noticed a few things missing. For example, all hunter specializations no longer mention the passive buffs of Animal Handler, Artisan Quiver, or Into the Wild. Also, taking out Pathing will be a 3% Haste loss for all specs since right now everyone takes it. With the removal of Ferocious Inspiration, BM doesn't bring a raid buff other than the Exotic Ability buff from Exotic pets. Also, the loss of Longevity means longer CD on Bestial Wrath (probably balanced with possibility of Readiness). Markmanship no longer has Improved Steady Shot or Piercing Shots, both of which will drastically change the play style and potentially eliminate Aimed Shot hardcasting. Also lost the Rapid Killing/Recuperation synergy for AoE (probably balanced with possibility of Thrill of the Hunt, but still painful for leveling/solo questing). Survival no longer has the Sniper Training mechanic to manage. However, it lost Improved Serpent Sting, Noxious Stings, and Toxicology for AoE and Resourcefulness for trap and Black Arrow CD reduction.


Hunter Base Class:

-[Removed from Game]-
Dual Wield (Note: Possibly just an omission or oversight)
Raptor Strike
Parry
Wing Clip
Disengage (Note: Definitely an omission error since it is mentioned in talent choices)
Widow Venom
Aspect of the Wild

-[New Additions to Talent Choices]-
Frozen Arrows
Arcane Arrows
Venom Tipped Arrows
Evasiveness
Exhilaration
Aspect of the Iron Hawk
Flash Freeze
Black Ice
Transmorph Trap

-[New additions to Base Skill]-
Focused Aim



Beast Mastery Specialization:

-[Removed from Game]-
Animal Handler
Improved Kill Command
One With Nature
Bestial Discipline
Pathfinding
Improved Mend Pet
Longevity
Killing Streak
Ferocious Inspiration

-[Moved to Talent Choices]-
Intimidation
Spirit Bond (Note: Now doubled periodic healing effect, but no longer gives 10% increased healing received)
Fervor
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)

-[Remains in Specialization]-
Frenzy (Note: Same as having 3/3 currently)
Cobra Strikes (Note: Same as having 3/3 currently)
Focus Fire
Bestial Wrath
Kindred Spirits (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
The Beast Within
Invigoration (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Beast Mastery
Mastery: Master of Beasts



Marksmanship Specialization:

-[Removed from Game]-
Artisan Quiver
Go for the Throat
Efficiency
Rapid Killing
Sic 'Em!
Improved Steady Shot
Piercing Shots
Termination
Resistance is Futile
Rapid Recuperation

-[Moved to Talent Choices]-
Silencing Shot
Readiness
Posthaste (Note: Now increases movement speed by 60% instead of 30%, but no longer reduces cooldown of Rapid Fire)

-[Remains in Specialization]-
Aimed Shot
Careful Aim (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Concussive Barrage (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Bombardment (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Trueshot Aura
Master Marksman (Note: Same as having 3/3 currently)
Marked for Death (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Chimera Shot
Mastery: Wild Quiver



Survival Specialization:

-[Removed from Game]-
Into the Wilderness
Hunter vs. Wild
Pathing
Improved Serpent Sting
Survival Tactics
Point of No Escape
Counterattack
Resourcefulness
Mirrored Blades
Toxicology
Noxious Stings
Sniper Training

-[Moved to Talent Choices]-
Thrill of the Hunt (Note: Now works for any focus costing and restores 100% of focus instead of 40%)
Wyvern Sting

-[Remains in Specialization]-
Explosive Shot
Trap Mastery (Note: Same as having 3/3 currently)
Entrapment (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Lock and Load (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
T.N.T. (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Hunting Party (Note: No longer increases player's Agility)
Serpent Spread (Note: Same as having 2/2 currently)
Black Arrow
Mastery: Essence of the Viper

Edit: Mericet beat me to the punch =p
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#29 Frchorknabe

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:09 AM

...
Hunter Base Class:

-[Removed from Game]-
Dual Wield (Note: Possibly just an omission or oversight)
Raptor Strike
Parry
...
Counterattack


Given that Blizzard stated that hunters would be restricted to wielding ranged weapons only (in exchange of getting rid of the dead zone), the removal of Dual Wield and other melee-related skills seems logical and not an omission. Also applies to Wing Clip which wasn't listed so far.

#30 Nooska

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:16 AM

Hunter Base Class:

-[Removed from Game]-
Dual Wield (Note: Possibly just an omission or oversight)
Raptor Strike
Parry


As for these, it is, by what we have been told, absolutely logical, and not an oversight or omission. Remember, when 5.x hits we will lose the ability to equip a melee weapon, thus dual wielding, raptor strike and parry go the way of the dodo, since they would require the use of a melee weapon.

As to the rest, what I'm mainly seeing ar positive removals - the more "Buffs you X by Y" that are in, the harder it is to balance the effects of X across all three specs. I am fairly certain that the straght damage, agility or AP boosts will stay out and the class will be balanced around them not being there, instead of balancing around 10 agility on an item in reality is 11.22 agility for SV (translating to 25.91 AP with raid buffs), and 10 agility for BM (translating to 28.88 AP with raid and spec buffs) and just straight 10 agility for MM (23.1 AP with raid buffs) who then get a boost to their auto-attacks. The AP variance from agility is, right now, 25% from MM to BM, which is a lot when all our abilities scale off AP somehow.

#31 Nooska

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:43 PM

Okay, new talent calculator is out. Not a lot of changes, but I'll sum them up here.

Level 15
Gone are the ammo talents, which , in my opinion were actually interesting, and they have been replaced with the previous level 45 talents, Posthaste, Evasiveness and Exhilaration

Level 30
Unchanged, Silencing Shot, Wyvern Sting and Intimidation.

Level 45
The previous level 60 talents have been moved down here, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera, Aspect of the Iron Hawk and Spirit Bond

Level 60
Again, the talents here are the ones that was one tier up last time, Fervor, Readiness and Thrill of the Hunt

Level 75
The former level 90 talents, all about traps; Flash Freeze, Black Ice and Transmorph Trap

Thoughts:
So far there is nothing new, its all been shifted, except for level 30, and the previous level 15 talents are gone. The new stuff comes next:

Level 90
Glaive Toss
You hurl two glaives in front of you 30 yards, dealing 1,X damage to all enemies and reducing their movement speed by 50%.
The Glaives will return back to you, also dealing damage and snaring targets they hit.
If Glaive Toss hits at least 2 enemies in both directions, the cooldown is reset.


Powershot
You wind up a powerful shot, dealing 1,X damage to all targets in front of you withing 20 yards (width).
The damage done is increased on targets further away:
15-30 yards: Double damage, Stunned 1 sec
30-50 yards: Tripple damage, Stunned 2 sec


Binding Shot
You fire a magical projectile, tethering the enemy and any other enemies within 10 yards to the landing arrow. Increases all damage they recieve from you by 15%.
If they move 15 yards from the arrow they are stunned for 10 sec (5 sec PVP)


Thoughts
First thought, these are all 3 new, and interesting mechanics. Powershot is an ability that is badly designed as it is right now - hitting all enemies in a box (from how its worded) 20 yards wide and 50 yards long in front of you stunning everything thats 15+ yards from you? Thats overpowered in PVP, almost regardless of the amount of damage (just imagine a hunter on the bridge at the alliance base in AV), and for PvE, with the doing away of minimum range this takes it in the directly opposite direction - stay as far away as possible? Add to that that the "normal" shots still have a max range of 40 yards, and something is hinky here. The blues did say that "For shaman and hunters, we still have a ways to go with the revamp of talents, and this latest calculator doesn’t have some of the changes that we’re currently working on" so lets hope they do give this another pass.
Binding Shot is also an ability that seems a bit OP or PVP - especially combined with multishot and SV getting Serpent spread as a spec bonus (at level 68). It does seem like a possibly good tool for PVE on add control, which, were I to guess, I would assume it was designed for. I like the ability, but I think there is a big possibility that it can be OP in PVP.
Glaive Toss is clearly an AoE ability, and I like the idea, this is the go-to aoe ability (if you have it picked up) as long as at least 2 mobs will survive both passes - the snare on this and Binding shot seem to indicate that the current design thoughts for PVE are headed in the direction of more add control needed - the question then remains what kind, is it Gluth zombies, or Valithria Dreamwalker type adds. Either way I'm excited abot getting tools that indicate that we get to do more than just stand still (and move a bit) and mash buttons.

All in all I like the thoughts of the current level 90 talents more than the previous ones (which are now level 75), and it seems like the class designers are pushing the envelope on actually making interesting - and possibly hard - choices for at least some of the tiers. I still think the (now) level 60 talents should go the way of the dod for something else, they are far too theorycraftable and susceptible to being moot - as I went into some detail with in my first post in this thread. I am definately looking forward to the next set of changes for hunters, as I like where we seem to be headed, despite some issues that I call bad design or design flaws, and overpoweredness - the latter can be tweaked on one ability, and the other (powershot) in my opinion has to go for something else simply because it works against the way hunters are headed in general.

#32 Tobensen

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:08 AM

There are some changes for SV as well.

Lock and Load:
You have a 100% chance when you trap a target with Freezing Trap or Ice Trap to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus, trigger no cooldown and deal double damage.

Black Arrow: (40 Focus; no CD ?)
Fires a Black Arrow at the target, dealing x% Weapon damage as shadow damage to enemy target.
In addition, Black Arrow deals x damage over 20 sec to the target and any other enemy within the path of Black Arrow when fired.

#33 Starwind

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:33 PM

The chenge that excites me is:

Camouflage - Can now be cast while in combat. Lasts for 6 sec if cast in combat, otherwise, lasts for 1 min.

Also, In general I wouldn't state that something is OP before it even hits beta testing. We have plenty of time for mages to chip away at hunter talents without doing so ourselves before the code is even testable.

#34 davek

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

for PvE, with the doing away of minimum range this takes it in the directly opposite direction - stay as far away as possible?

Doing away with the minimum range is a more QoL thing for players and developers - in that neither side needs to come up with solutions for stacking bosses to work around it - but I think the developers would steadfastly argue that Hunters are still a ranged class that's not intended to be stacked in the melee pile all the time. With that taken into consideration, I would expect having a talent like Powershot - PvP balancing issues aside - that reminds and encourages Hunters of their place as death dealers who keep their distance while someone or something ties up their target is not necessarily contrary to design goals.

Meanwhile, In those situations where keeping distance is bad/stacking is required, under the new talent tree design you just swap to option two or three and rock on.

#35 Nooska

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

Also, In general I wouldn't state that something is OP before it even hits beta testing. We have plenty of time for mages to chip away at hunter talents without doing so ourselves before the code is even testable.

I'm saying I think it is overpowered because there ae no limits - the cooldown on this would eithe rmake or break it if there is one, but even then, adding a CD would just create a need to make the ability even more powerful when it hit (damagewise). As to what specific other classes want to chip away at the hunter, I'm not going to entertain notions of knowing what "classes" want (personally I play 7 classes at 85, some more, some less), and yes I think about being on the recieving end of an ability as well as using it.
I would much rather call it out as OP now, at the beginning, when it can still be changed enough that it can be useful, than wait and be quiet about a - to me - obvious problem and get hit with a harder nerf bat - I want my hunter to be able to be my main (again) come MoP without having to defend it being taken - been there, done that, and even as an officer where I could guarantee it, it was not fun.

I would expect having a talent like Powershot - PvP balancing issues aside - that reminds and encourages Hunters of their place as death dealers who keep their distance while someone or something ties up their target is not necessarily contrary to design goals.

While I agree on the higher plane of design thought - in practise hunters won't be allowedd to stand 30+ yards away from the boss unless it is required by mechanics, just to use our awesome-shot. In addition, we would feel nerfed everytime we would have to stack on the boss because our awesome-shot just became our sucky-shot. There is a reason Sniper Training was changed to standing still, rather than standing 30+ yards from your target, and I'd rather not go down that path once more.

#36 Arash

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

The value of Evasiveness depends on how it will work. Wheter you can use it like deterrence while fighting Ragnaros to completely avoid trap damage or just to avoid targeted projektile damage in fights like Hagara.

#37 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:09 PM

I would much rather call it out as OP now, at the beginning, when it can still be changed enough that it can be useful, than wait and be quiet about a - to me - obvious problem and get hit with a harder nerf bat - I want my hunter to be able to be my main (again) come MoP without having to defend it being taken - been there, done that, and even as an officer where I could guarantee it, it was not fun.


While I agree on the higher plane of design thought - in practise hunters won't be allowedd to stand 30+ yards away from the boss unless it is required by mechanics, just to use our awesome-shot. In addition, we would feel nerfed everytime we would have to stack on the boss because our awesome-shot just became our sucky-shot. There is a reason Sniper Training was changed to standing still, rather than standing 30+ yards from your target, and I'd rather not go down that path once more.


I think the larger point, though, is that not only is the calculator not telling the whole story in terms of specific talents (some are bugged and don't show CDs, the numbers are wrong, etc.), there's no context for some of the larger changes either -- other classes are getting abilities that may also be powerful or may counter some others. Some things probably can't be declared OP without numbers, to boot. At best we can talk about the concept of certain talents, taking care not to rely on assumptions that aren't supported by current data.

For example, Powershot will in most instances be a 1 sec. AoE stun, because most targets won't be more than 30 yards away. It's also a controlled stun, and based on other comments (in threads about rogue stuns) it seems that diminishing returns on controlled stuns aren't going anywhere. Wasting DR on a 1 sec stun (2 max) isn't the no-brainer that it might seem at first. Moreover, Destro locks have an AoE 3-sec stun right now (albeit with a smaller range/radius, assuming we can trust the calculator's numbers). Finally, the damage multiplier suggests a mechanic similar to ice lance, where the base damage is hardly threatening.

Similarly, Binding Arrow has the same issues with running into stun DR, and seems to act only as a pseudo-control to "corral" targets into an area without actually forcing them to be immobile or otherwise controlled. The 15% damage boost might be significant, but it seems to only apply to a single hunter, unlike say, the methods that unholy DKs and Affliction locks can spread the +spell damage taken debuff to multiple targets without any restrictions other than duration, and while the debuff is half as powerful, there's no limit to the number of people who can take advantage of it.

So far, the talents seem more exciting than overpowered (that's without numbers we can trust, of course), which I imagine is what the developers were going for when they introduced the "concentrated coolness" mantra.

As for hunters not being "allowed" to stand far away unless the mechanics require it, I would rephrase that to say that hunters won't be allowed to stand far away if the mechanics prohibit it. That's a smaller list.

#38 Kurisu

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:16 PM

I'm still sort of surprised that Exhilaration isn't lowered or changed since 15% is pretty sizey a heal to a 15 second cooldown, no resource ability that gets you out of harms way with little to no hamper on DPS, if Evasiveness works akin to say Cloak/Bubble it would both as you describe Arash. The issue with the Ammo talents was that they were too DPS influencing, especially if the dot one was affected by Survival Mastery, and Arcane Arrows heavily fed focus to Beast Mastery to do more Arcane Shots. I doubt it would have felt like a decision in the long run.

#39 Skhope

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:24 PM

I'm still sort of surprised that Exhilaration isn't lowered or changed since 15% is pretty sizey a heal to a 15 second cooldown

There are several other dps specs that get more than 15% healing over 15 sec (rogues, dks, rets, etc.). Plus, we have no form of absorb and no way to remove debuffs unlike most other classes.

#40 Hirgux

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

The chenge that excites me is:
Camouflage - Can now be cast while in combat. Lasts for 6 sec if cast in combat, otherwise, lasts for 1 min.


Why does it excite you? When reading those news think about when you would use it in the current content - I cannot think of one situation you would use this. You still will be hit by all aoe abilities from bosses (like in pvp camou gets broken by aoe spells) and you normally don't take any direct hits because you are no tank, and in most fights you cannot simply stand there for six seconds useless because when you do anything camo will break.

EDIT: Oh ok pvp would be an idea I didn't think about because I only play pve, sry.




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