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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#41 Kamangir

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:14 PM

I think the problem with trying to determine the OP-ness (teehee) of Powershot is that we don't know its focus cost or its cooldown.

Also, what do you guys think of Symbiosis?

Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)

Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam


Obviously this isn't the full or final list, but I hope there's more than just Dash. I can see that being useful in PVP, but not so much in PVE. I can't see too many feral abilities being particularly helpful (since they are melee attacks) unless they go to the pet instead of the hunter. Tiger's Fury or Omen of Clarity would be very nice though.

#42 Pathemeous

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:44 PM

I can see that being useful in PVP, but not so much in PVE.


Keep in mind that FD isn't very useful in PvE either. It seems that a Symbiosis on a hunter is more of a PvP utility. Feral druid getting a way be removed as target / get out of combat, hunters getting a speed increase to easen our positioning, which still is an important thing seeing that we will be gimped when LoSed.

Also, about the general thoughts of our last tier talents:
OPness seems unpredictable. They do seem like very 'big' abilities, but mind that other classes are getting abilities of the same size. It won't neccessarily make us OP, it'll just mean that there are 'bigger' attacks from all classes to watch out for in PvP, more 'pewpew' and epic magical effects happening in PvE.

I think that this last tier of talents is just an attempt to make everything more "Woooww, that looks epic!", make the game a bit more attractive :)

#43 Nooska

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:22 PM

I will just make a comment about OP distinction in my posts.
I am not looking at powershot and saying hunters will be OP, I am saying I think the ability is overpowered (almost regardless of cost or CD) - I haven't looked analytically a other classes, and I don't think its necessary to analyze hunters. While we don't exist in a vacuum, whether or not another class has overpowered or underpowered abilities doesn't change how we work after all.

#44 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:20 AM

Even if I understood the distinction (and I don't), I don't believe the responses are inconsistent with what you said. The argument is that you can't make a judgment about whether an ability is overpowered (even as distinct from a class being overpowered) without considering how it stacks up against other abilities that are available, including existing pre-MoP abilities. That still requires an accurate understanding of what the ability actually does (and costs, and how often it can be used).

#45 Nooska

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:29 AM

The distinction I'm making is that I'm not comparing hunters to other classes - I don't find that interesting at all - I am looking at the specific abilities and considering how they will feel or where I could imagine using them - and then I consider the implications of said usage.
For Powershot I first look at the requirements for boh stun and damage, and see; If I want to use this optimally I need to be 30+ yards away from my target(s). Then I think about how much of a bother it has been over the course of my hunterdays to be forced to be a given distance away from my target - be that minimum range meaning we can't stack in melee, or an ability like Sniper Training in the old incarnation. I then look at the doing away of minimum range and call out a completely new ability that goes in the completely opposite direction for being a counter to the very clear design descision.
Further I look at where I could imagine using the ability to the best, and as I've mentioned a few times, standing at one end of the alliance bridge in AV would be a perfect example of how OP the ability can be - I hit everything in a 20 yard wide 50 yard deep square and deal damage (significant damage to the furthest targets since its tripled) and stun them all. Being able to singlehandedly stop a nondetermined amount of players in PvP (even if its only for a second or two) is simply overpowered. This could be remedied with a cap on number of targets, a change of the area of effect or numerous other tweaks, but then it impacts the ability's usefulness in other situations.

So while I may have been a bit shortwinded on it before, I will also make sure to be specific about calling out powershot on 2 points, 1) its overpowered (in my opinion, for the reasons stated above) and 2) its going against the called for and clear design changes for hunter range.

#46 Starwind

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:15 PM

The term "over powered" is relative, not absolute. Stating that something in and of itself is OP without the context of the metagame is pure speculation at this point.

I'd keep the discussion centered around the design issue rather than whether or not someone believes something is OP at this stage of development. There is no evidence supporting one position or the other at this point and there will be plenty of time during non-production trials to provide feedback regarding not only how this specific spell performs on it's own but also how it performs in the metagame.

#47 TrevvyTrev

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:44 AM

Without belaboring the point any further, I'll simply say that if every healer had access to group stun immunity or even high resists, then AoE stuns go from "overpowered" to "almost useless". I am not remotely suggesting that will happen, but it's the kind of thing that drastically changes your assessment of the ability, which is why people keep saying that you probably need to have some idea as to what else is out there before making a declaration. The same goes for triple damage. You can't conclude that the triple damage is "significant" without knowing what the base damage is. If the base damage is "insignificant" then the triple damage might be insignificant too. Finally, I'm at a loss as to how the ability to stop a group of people on the AV bridge for 1-2 seconds is overpowered. I've been stopped on that bridge with existing AoE CC's that last for significantly longer. It's annoying, but it's the other team's job to do annoying things that keep you from your objectives.

The design direction point is more interesting, but ultimately I think it too is crushed under the weight of unnecessary assumptions. I don't think it's safe to say that the removal of minimum range means that the design direction is for hunters to never care about how far away they are from their targets. As a threshold matter, I'm less convinced that hunters are going to obsess over getting 30 yards away to maximize the ability, because the key difference over the status quo is that the ability still functions at melee range up to max range.

All we can infer from the removal of minimum range (and melee weapons) is that the designers didn't want hunters to be cut off from using the overwhelming majority of their abilities in melee range, and that they also didn't want hunters (or anyone, in light of changes to thrown weapons, etc.) to rely on two different weapon types based entirely on the distance that they were from their targets. Powershot doesn't change that in the least -- it still works (ostensibly) in melee range, so it's consistent with the design that hunters should be able to use ranged attacks in melee range.

If anything, I agree with earlier posts that the ability emphasizes that there is some advantage to being far away, or in the case of runners, that being far away isn't a free pass to escape that it might currently be, because the slightly longer stun gives the hunters' teammates more of a window to catch up. In a world where the hunter's ranged advantage was eroded away, an ability that makes hunters more dangerous from range seems worthwhile.

#48 Adarant

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:40 PM

Hit and Expertise

According to Ghostcrawler's most recent blog (Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes - World of Warcraft) Hunters will be required to cap both Hit and Expertise in Mists. This is a significant change to our mechanics, as we currently benefit from a reduced requirement in capped stats. At 85, all spell casters require 1742 Hit while melee requires 961 Hit and 781 Expertise, total 1742 capped stats. Hunters need only reach 961 Hit for the Hit cap, and our pets are automatically Expertise capped.

As somebody that has only played Hunters and Healers, I'm not entirely sure how the Expertise mechanics function. But, my gut feeling is that this is being done more to put Hunters in the same boat as everybody else than to make gear sharing easier. While I want to think that reforging will become more complicated with this change, it will still probably boil down to using a reforging website. Come to think of it, reforging and the related websites are the reason why capped stats seem particularly cumbersome and uninteresting. I suppose that they are remaining for Mists in part to provide a throttle damage output.

Another point about this change, which I saw first on WHU, was that this change might impact Hunter soloing. Due to current mechanics, our pets are never able to be dodged or parried when we are at 961 Hit. If pets inherit just our Expertise, then the changes will push dodges off of the combat table, but still leave our pet attacks prone to parries. This reduces their damage output and threat generation. That said, I find it quite hard to speculate about anything pet related until we get more news about how pets will be handled in Mists.

Other Information

All abilities will start with 2.0x modifier for critical strikes, Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, and all other abilities still on the 1.5x modifier will receive a slight buff. Additionally, it seems likely that Aspect of the Wild will be removed (perhaps replaced) because spell resists and spell penetration are being removed from the game. The spell pen change is sure to have positive PvP implications, as it means traps will no longer be able to be resisted.

#49 daimonie

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

I doubt pet damage output, or hunter damage output, is affected by the change. The reason they're adding it is, that with smaller item pools per raid tier, we get in some awkward positions. Since we, hunters, are in the pool with Enhancement shamans, who need expertise, that would make it easier. Exp/Crit boots would be somewhat decent for the shaman, while it'd be good for the hunter; and so forth.

#50 tracer

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:33 PM

As somebody that has only played Hunters and Healers, I'm not entirely sure how the Expertise mechanics function.


From what Ghostcrawler said, the Expertise mechanics are going to be changing enough that any current experience with Expertise won't be very valuable anyway.

Here's what I take away from Ghostcrawler's message:

* Ranged attacks will presumably have the same chances to miss and be dodged as melee attacks.
* Against boss-level targets, your base chance to (melee/ranged) miss will be 7.5%, and your base chance to be dodged will also be 7.5%. (Your base chance to be blocked will be 7.5% too, but we assume we'll usually be attacking bosses from behind where they can't block.)
* Just like today, it will take X amount of Hit Rating to completely negate your chance to miss.
* It will take the same X amount of Expertise Rating to completely negate your chance to be blocked.
* Finally, spell miss. I'm guessing there might be some Hunter abilities (arcane shot? serpent sting ticks? flame traps?) that use the target's Spell Miss chance instead of its Melee Miss chance. Your base chance to miss with spells against a raid boss will be 15%. The good news is, Hit Rating reduces your Spell Miss chance, and Expertise will also reduce your Spell Miss chance. Thus, if you have X Hit Rating and X Expertise Rating, your melee/ranged miss chance will be 0, your chance to be dodged will be 0, and your Spell Miss chance will likewise be 0.

Basically, instead of just worrying about keeping your Hit Rating knife-edged balanced at X, you'll have to worry about keeping BOTH your Hit Rating AND your Expertise Rating knife-edged balanced at X. (Melee DPSers already do this all the time, so it's not too hard.)

#51 R00k!3

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:50 PM

I think it's quite interesting that Hunters Mark and Hawk were both changed to +10% attack power. This seems to be a step in the right direction when trying to fix scaling issues.
Aspect of the Iron Hawk ; Hunter's Mark

#52 Andil

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:52 PM

Just a small correction: Hunter's Mark is 10% increased ranged damage, not attackpower.

#53 Carlaena

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

Just a small correction: Hunter's Mark is 10% increased ranged damage, not attackpower.


It is 5%

#54 zakaria

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 07:55 AM

Level 75 talents:

Murder of Crows--summons crows to attack over 30 seconds, 1 min CD, reset if target under 20%
Call Beast--summons a beast to fight for you, does damage and returns focus over 12 seconds, 30 sec CD
Lynx Rush--Your pet rapidly charges from target to target, attacking 9 times over 4 sec, dealing its normal attack damage to each target. 2 min CD


Level 75 talents became now BM centric. Lynx rush I guess is like same mechanic of Lynx rush for the final boss in ZA which make him pounce from target to target but without the bleed and stun effect.

Edit: I found a video for tier 75 talents MoP Beta Hunter T5 Talents - YouTube

#55 Ristoril

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:03 AM

Call Best currently does not have a cooldown.

From the quick bit of testing I did, I found with Call Beast you can just macro it with cobra shot and spam it. You end up with multiple beasts attacking a target for the same regular melee swing damage as a non BM pet (it stays at that kinda damge even if you are BM spec'ed and they are not effected by Beastial Wrath). For me this was about 2.5k to 3k damage non crit and 5k+ on crits

#56 Relwin

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

Call Best currently does not have a cooldown.

From the quick bit of testing I did, I found with Call Beast you can just macro it with cobra shot and spam it. You end up with multiple beasts attacking a target for the same regular melee swing damage as a non BM pet (it stays at that kinda damge even if you are BM spec'ed and they are not effected by Beastial Wrath). For me this was about 2.5k to 3k damage non crit and 5k+ on crits


More than likely a bug and you should report it as such.

#57 Kaitain

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

I noticed a small but relevant tooltip change on the MoP wowhead site

Current Kill Command:
Kill Command - Spell - World of Warcraft
New Kill Command:
Kill Command - Spell - World of Warcraft

(you have to click the links, the tooltips are showing as the same thing)

The change is:
The pet must be in combat and within 5 yards of the target to Kill Command.
range increase to:
The pet must be within 25 yards of the target to Kill Command.

Should be nice to help solve some of the pet bugginess that plagues BM raiding.

#58 Venekathas

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:09 PM

I see this thread is a little lack-luster in content. I basically wrote a book on the bnet forums about hunter talents and some about skills. Figured instead of copy pasting 30 thousand characters, I'd just provide the link.

Critical Hunter Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

If anyone thinks I should however, let me know.

#59 Gruck

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:16 AM

Question...

With the changes to KC and the addition of BeastCleave, is mastery looking like a better stat for BM now (in MoP that is)?

#60 Nooska

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:56 PM

Question...

With the changes to KC and the addition of BeastCleave, is mastery looking like a better stat for BM now (in MoP that is)?


Its really too early to tell how stats are going to be valued compared to eachother. As to the changes to KC, I don't see them affecting the value of mastery as it is more a quality of life change (in the last iteration I've seen) as the current pretty good mastery value assumes that the pet is close enough to use KC anyway.
Beastcleave should benefit from mastery the way it reads, and is most directly comparable to Serpent Spread, and will probably end up doing around the same extra damage per mastery. All in all, I don't think these 2 abilities does anything really great for mastery as a stat, but they don't diminish the value of it either.




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