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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#21 Zalbo

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 03:01 AM

Interesting new changes. No more blastwave?

Arcane bomb seems odd, basically a dot that jumps randomly, but theres still only the one? Sounds kind of annoying almost. Also it's not a bomb in any sort of explosion sense? Would probably drive enemy dispellers nuts in PvP though.

Frost bomb, I suppose it's pve use (over living bomb) will depend on the damage being worth the GCD, only 5 seconds means you'll be recasting it fairly often.

The change to ignite is interesting, this means the only additional benefit fire has from critical strikes is a chance at instant pyroblast (that may also have been a change). I wonder if they are trying to a) fix ignite munching and B) lower fires RNG. They'll probably succeed at the second one I suspect, although you'll still need crits for the good combustions.
The removal of scorch from causing ignite means fires moving dps will go down rather a lot, and which talent to choose (PoM, Scorch or arcane flows) just became a lot harder/fight dependant.

Edit: Fingers of frost is back by the way.
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#22 Zeldyrr

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:19 PM

Fingers of Frost is indeed back, but it is greatly changed, at least if I am reading the new text correctly:

Your Freezing effects that fail due to target immunity instead grant you the Fingers of Frost effect. Fingers of Frost causes your next Ice Lance or Deep Freeze spell to act as if your target were frozen and increases Ice Lance damage by 25%. Fingers of Frost can accumulate up to 2 charges and lasts 15 sec.


Changes:

  • FoF only procs when freezing effect fail due target immunity. So that would be bosses, uber trash, and (maybe) PvP targets with DR active? In any event, it greatly reduces usefulness in PvP.
  • FFB is no longer included in the next spell list, so there is no reason to save BF procs for FoF procs.
  • (And I think this is the most important one) There is no more chance to proc--the text implies it now happens every time a freezing effect fails. If you don't have to save a proc for BF anymore and it procs 100% of the time, it makes for an "interesting" rotation: FB, IL, FB, IL.


#23 Morthoul

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:16 PM

I read "freeze" as roots or stronger CC involving frost. Snares I expect to be called "slowed". This gets very different results from the talent.

The new FoF would only proc if we drop a nova or hit a boss with one of the level-45 talents (Ring of Frost, etc.). The PvP motive is clear; it makes Deep Freeze require more setup. The PvE design is still missing something, since it all but removes Ice Lance from the rotation. Our pet freeze would give us 1 FoF proc and we'd spend it on Deep Freeze. We could Ice Lance if the nova hit 2 mobs and we had a spare charge, but that's it.

#24 Kyrilon

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

New Talent Calculator Updates:

Talent Calculator - Game Guide - World of Warcraft!

The changes to the bombs will make for some compelling theorycrafting, I think, as each is now functionally different. The new Tier 6 talents are very interesting, though Incanter's Shield sounds too situational to be raid-build worthy. And in case no one noticed, Cauterize as stated will no longer kill you if you are not healed.

And finally the crap poly talents are gone! Huzzah!

#25 nathanbp

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:09 PM

I guess Blizzard's way of making Arcane more interesting to to make it so that we'll cast Arcane Missiles whenever they proc. The removal of the mana regen from Mage Armor seems likely to make a mana neutral dps rotation impossible. This would mean Arcane is likely forced into taking Invocation. The rotation would then be: Spam AB, cast AM when it procs, and cast Evocation at 40% mana (or maybe after the damage buff falls off, depending on how long it takes to get to 40% mana spamming AB). To me this seems like an even more boring rotation than current Arcane, where you at least have to think a little during the mana neutral rotation part.

If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.


#26 Doroteasenjk

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

When I read the original talent calculator and the current one, I noticed that Arcane Missiles is not a proc. This may be an error on Blizzard's part, but that means they committed the error twice. Such oversight is possible.

Edit: I'm wrong: February 15 Update to Mists Talent Calculator - Forums - World of Warcraft
Arcane Missiles is still a proc and nathanbp is correct. There is no mana neutral rotation.

#27 Kavan

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 08:40 PM

If you look at the 90 talents you'll see they talk about base regen. Currently we don't have any base regen so I'd say it's safe to assume that we'll be getting some regen to compensate for the loss of mage armor. I wouldn't worry about mana neutral rotations not being possible. Depending on the fight I think the Incanter's Shield will be the most potent of the level 90 talents for arcane (at the possible increase in playstyle complexity compared to the other two).

#28 nathanbp

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:30 PM

If you look at the 90 talents you'll see they talk about base regen. Currently we don't have any base regen so I'd say it's safe to assume that we'll be getting some regen to compensate for the loss of mage armor. I wouldn't worry about mana neutral rotations not being possible. Depending on the fight I think the Incanter's Shield will be the most potent of the level 90 talents for arcane (at the possible increase in playstyle complexity compared to the other two).


We do have base regen today, it's just very small compared to Replenishment, Mage Armor, and Blessing of Might. It seems like all 3 of those are going away as a source of mana regen, although they've said they haven't really done buffs yet. Note that Kaivax says here:

you won’t passively regenerate any [mana] with Invocation.

The Frost and Fire rotations are roughly mana neutral if base mana equals max mana and mana regen is 1% max mana per second (as stated at the link above), so presumably Frost and Fire will only care about the extra damage portions of the level 90 talents. On that basis it seems like you'd pick Invocation if there's downtime to use it in, Rune of Power if you can stand in one place for a while, and Incanter's Shield if there's lots of incidental raid damage. Note that you have to stand in the Rune of Power for 10 seconds just to make up for the damage lost by casting it.

If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.


#29 Kavan

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:25 PM

You're right, we currently have 1% base mana regen and it looks like they're changing that to 1% max mana regen. I guess it'll depend what relationship there will be between base mana and max mana now that int will no longer affect it.

#30 rh8452

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:49 PM

From what I can guess, it sounds like rune of power allows you to have two runes up at a time, so you would precast them before a pull on fights where you know where you're going to move to, such as Chimaeron (one at range where you normally DPS, one on the stack point)

So on such fights there'd be no DPS loss of note from the talent.

Incanter's shield seems a lot stronger than the other two (we'd just dip into fire to proc it if necessary).

#31 fateswarm

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:59 AM

The three different talents merits will depend primarily on the fight and secondarily on the spec, hence we could write a whole book about the combinations they could produce. What I get as a general sense is that the game appears to have created a tradition of sustained incoming raid damage hence in most encounters I suspect Incanter's Shield will proc. In encounters with very sporadic bursting such as Spine, all specs might benefit from Invocation, however, if one can find a way to reliably proc Incanter's Shield, they might benefit more that way. The Rune of Power talent appears to be designed for sustained DPS or for longer two-way bursts, such as the Zon'Ozz encounter, where one could drop a rune at two different positions (Chimaeron was also a good example). But, whether that would be preferable to Incanter's Shield or even Invocation (even on non Arcane specs) might be a dilemma requiring good math to derive an answer.

i.e. The 3 talents do appear to overlap in duties and I suspect in some encounters the choice will be obvious but in some others intuition will not be easily enough. This will be true for all three specs.

#32 rh8452

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:25 AM

Shard of Woe will probably remain BiS for Arcane for a bit in MoP unless nerfed somehow, since if int no longer increases max mana, spell casting costs may change downwards while Shard's value remains fixed.

#33 MentarOmega

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:47 PM

I don't quite understand how people could merit various talents as "too narrow". The whole point of the new talent system was _not_ to have a single "best build" anymore, but rather to give the player choices. Also, Blizzard already pointed out that they were planning to make the dynamic switching of talents fairly easy. Therefore, I'd rather assume that each mage can reconfigure for various boss fights like he sees fit.

Personally, I find this concept incredibly interesting. At least I know that if I walk through the FL and DS raid bosses in my thoughts, I could easily come up with fights where I'd pick different mutually exclusive talents. It's like taking the right tools out of a toolbox for the requirements of each fight. And this is something we don't really have at the moment.

#34 Pasture

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:52 PM

From what I can guess, it sounds like rune of power allows you to have two runes up at a time, so you would precast them before a pull on fights where you know where you're going to move to, such as Chimaeron (one at range where you normally DPS, one on the stack point)

So on such fights there'd be no DPS loss of note from the talent.

The runes only last for one minute after being cast so they require re-casting throughout the fight. Regardless it will be the go to option unless the fight makes it not viable. Incanter's, though, syncs better with cooldowns. Lining it up with Combustion / AB spam could result in a bigger net gain.

#35 Kyrilon

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:22 PM

The runes only last for one minute after being cast so they require re-casting throughout the fight. Regardless it will be the go to option unless the fight makes it not viable. Incanter's, though, syncs better with cooldowns. Lining it up with Combustion / AB spam could result in a bigger net gain.


And this is where I think the Rune of Power is going to run into problems. As a ranged AOE spell, we're going to have to expend time every minute setting the AOE reticle and casting a spell that does not do damage. From a time management and overall DPS perspective, it would be far easier to have RoP be a self-cast spell, because that then lands the rune where we are and allows us to continue casting unabated.

One thing that I don't think has been thoroughly addressed with Incanter's is how large the shield is. The tooltip states that it will return up to 30% of our maximum mana. Given that mana pools in MoP are likely to be static (and assuming that the number will be in the 100k range), that means somewhere around 30k damage can be absorbed over 8 seconds, and until that number is reached there will be no break of the shield to trigger the spell power boost. This sounds very much like an end-fight ability with some minor benefits on fights that consistently provide that kind of raid damage (Chimaeron, for example). Unless of course the designers are planning to empty healers' mana pools on every fight through blunt-force raid damage, which is certainly possible. They could also just make it a smaller shield with a multiplier for damage conversion to mana to increase the frequency of breaks, which would help it as well.

#36 Intermission

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:19 AM

And this is where I think the Rune of Power is going to run into problems. As a ranged AOE spell, we're going to have to expend time every minute setting the AOE reticle and casting a spell that does not do damage. From a time management and overall DPS perspective, it would be far easier to have RoP be a self-cast spell, because that then lands the rune where we are and allows us to continue casting unabated.


Why would you want to limit the spell? Being able to place it anywhere within range is clearly better than being limited to where we stand. The whole point of being able to cast two of them is so we can place them both were we are currently, and were we might be later. If we had to actually RUN to the location we wish to place it, that could be a massive DPS loss in some encounters.

I'm not sure what you mean by "expend time every minute setting the AOE reticle...". The time between pressing your keybind and clicking your mouse is maybe 1/10th of a second? Surely when you cast Flamestrike, Ring of Frost, etc, you already have your mouse in the location you wish to cast it before you even hit your keybind.

#37 Bowchikabow

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:39 AM

On a Patchwerk fight? Sure, we might wait the whole minute to recast. Any other fight? we will likely see a new "skillcap" in regard to placement and frequency of use. Think about it. On a fight like Ultraxion, you can simply re-up the rune at 58.5sec for 100% up time. On flights like.. maybe Morchokk, we can cast it as needed at our destinations without needing to wait an absurd amount of time for a cooldown. With only a 10sec cooldown (as it currently stands), the spell has incredible opportunities for flexibility, among other things. The only question I have at this point is whether they will introduce a mana cost? And what might that cost be?
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#38 Methusula

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:54 PM

The only question I have at this point is whether they will introduce a mana cost? And what might that cost be?


I don't see a reason to introduce a mana cost for an ability designed to return mana. Evocation has never had a cost associated with it. The trade off is the time spent channeling/casting.

#39 Doroteasenjk

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:04 PM

Surely when you cast Flamestrike, Ring of Frost, etc, you already have your mouse in the location you wish to cast it before you even hit your keybind.

And ... finding the darned mouse pointer in a clutter of spell effects, Power Auras, MSBT text and doing so while moving is my biggest difficulty with both Fire and Frost specs. It isn't so much the time required as the detailed attention to a screen that is already drowning in data. Spamming targeted effects also requires a macro so that you don't instantly turn the effect off. Then spamming one key to trigger the effect followed by clicking the mouse button is very much a "clunky mechanic."

All those issues I mentioned are very likely not issues for excellent mages, but they are for the rest of us. I believe that Kyrilon was trying to state that it was a clunky mechanic and I agree with him.

#40 Heef

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:18 PM

It's okay to discuss what the mechanics of Rune of Power might entail. Let's keep the discussion to the relative merits of it as a game mechanic, though, and not wander into discussing how fun it is to click somewhere on the screen.




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