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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#41 Exemplar

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:42 PM

Random thought of the day regarding the new talents and spec choice:
From Vanilla through Cataclysm, you start a new toon of any class, level from 1 to maximum and gain the vast majority of abilities. In the past there was typically one or two abilities granted only via talent tree. In Cata there can be an ability or two granted by specialization. Regardless, you gained access to the vast majority of the toolkit at max level - there were just a few extra things to learn/practice if you changed spec.

In Mists the idea seems much more in line to have each spec with a slew of spec-only abilities. So you level from 1 to maximum - let's say as a DPS spec. You'll gain all the baseline abilities, plus the DPS abilities for that spec. You now respec to tank or healer. You instantly lose the portion of your abilities that were DPS-only, and gain new abilities that are tank- or healer-only.

Thus a respec nearly becomes a new class entirely, as your mechanics and a good portion of your toolkit changes. The idea that leveling trains you on the class gets chucked entirely out the window. Each class could become nearly twice as complex (say 50% baseline + 50% per spec * 3 specs = 200%). That is potentially a greatly increased learning curve.

This also vastly limits hybrid situations. It would be extremely hard to spot heal the last 10% of something when a healer dies, if you only have 1/2 or 1/4 of the basic healing abilities. Just short of mana for FoL? Tough, you have no smaller spell, burned HP on WoG ,and are generating no more HP since you're not attacking. Same goes for throwing on a shield and tanking without any of the proposed new frequent-use active mitigation (not talking 2-3 min CDs).

Historically and generically (i.e. not just specific to WoW), but the only thing that gains more complaints than "you made it too easy" is making it 'harder' again after making it 'easy'.
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#42 Tobrexa

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 08:22 AM

I think this way they have a much better control of how much offheal a non healing spec can actually do.

Remember, we don't have a clear idea what the cooldowns will be like, what abilities will make it into the final Retribution/Prot package, what mana costs will be like, how much the different talents will affect said abilities.

They also said (concerning druids) that they want to have some kind of hybrid functions, why shouldn't that be the case for the other "hybrid" classes.
The inherent problemthereof is of course the old argument of hybrid vs. pure classes. If you see the Ret-Spec as a pure damage class per se, there is no way of not letting it compete for damage top spot.

Of course, the fact that one class plays out like three classes adds to complexity, mainly for beginners. On the other hand, you get your second spec relatively early on ingame, giving you at least the possibility to explore the other specs, if you want to.

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#43 Ronark

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:38 AM

Looks like the MoP calculators are adapting:

Talent Calculator - Game - World of Warcraft!

Basic Talent changes:

Tier 1:
* Due to Judgement's 6 second cooldown, LAotL is now a 45% speed burst for 2 seconds, averaging for a 15% increased movement speed bonus before Haste* (see below)
* Speed of Light now has secondary bonuses based on spec:
Holy: Reduces damage taken by 20%
Prot: Increases damage done by 10%
Ret: Heals targets within 10 yards for 12 seconds

Tier 2:
Seal of Justice is remove, replaced with Burden of Guilt with causes Judgement to slow movement speed by 50% for 12 seconds (unknown if limited to 1 target)

Tier 3:
No changes.

Tier 4:
Eternal Glory works with Light of Dawn, in addition to WoG.

Tier 5:
No change.

Tier 6:
No change.

"New" Class skills (Note: Tooltips are relative to level, presumed to be level 1. Also note, these are for all specs.):

*Seal of Command (L3)-- Deals 26 additional Holy damage to direct attacks (Note that seals have no limited duration, nor wording on tooltip if they are mutually exclusive).
*Judgement has a 30 yard range, 6 sec. cooldown.
*Word of Glory has no cooldown.
*Supplication (L22, Passive)-- For 15 sec after killing an enemy that yields EXP/Honor, your next FoL heals for 300%.
*Seal of Truth (L26)-- Direct attacks cause Censure: Deals 64 Holy damage over 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times, at which point each attack deals an additional 15% weapon damage as Holy (No interaction with Judgement, unclear if any attack or only melee attacks cause the bonus weapon damage).
*Seal of Insight (L33)-- Improves all healing spells by 5% and gives direct attacks a chance to restore 107 health and 4% base mana.
*Seal of Righteousness (L42)-- Direct attacks cause 26 additional Holy damage to all targets within melee range.
*Heart of the Crusader (L44)-- Increases mounted movement speed at all times by 20%, does not stack with other effects.
*Avenging Wrath (L72)-- Increases all damage and healing by 20% for 20 sec. 3min CD.
*Blessing of Might (L81)-- Places a Blessing on the target, increasing Mastery by 5.
*Blinding Light (L87, Instant Cast, 20% base mana)-- "Emits a dazzling light in all directions, blinding enemies within 10 yards, causing them to wander disoriented for 6 seconds". 3 min CD.

For Ret-specific changes:

* Loss of Holy Wrath, Holy Light, Light of Dawn, Divine Plea, and Holy Radiance. These are now Holy-exclusive.
* Loss of Auras. Auras are no longer a Paladin mechanic (nor Shaman or Priest, for that matter).
* Loss of Zealotry. Its effect has been folded into the T6 talent Holy Avenger. Changes on/made to GAnK is unknown as the tooltip remains as if you were spec-less.
* Shealth of Light now gives a 10% increased mana regeneration, as Judgement no longer gives back mana (this is expected, due to mana pools remaining stagnant across all specs). Time will tell how this impacts our Mana-based skills.
* Divine Storm has been moved back to a HP Finisher, and no longer has any healing mechanic attached to it.
* Hammer of the Righteousness always gives Holy power, and reduces physical damage done by the target by 10% for 30 seconds.
* Judgements give 1 Holy Power and increases the Physical damage taken by the target by 4%.
* Crusader's Zeal (L34)-- Your normal (white swing?) melee attacks have a chance to increase your attack speed of your next 3 attacks by 25%,
* Hammer of Wrath is exclusive to Ret and grants 1 Holy Power on use. (Note: If used on its 6 second cooldown during AW with the Sanctified Wrath talent, this equates to 1 additional Holy Power per minute, which is drastically below the Holy Power generation from the Holy and Prot bonuses).
* Seal of Justice is exclusive to Ret, and causes all direct attacks to reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for 5 sec and deal 12 additional Holy damage.
* Exorcism always grants a charge of Holy Power, but can no longer be hardcast as it only activates on autoattacks.
* Sanctity of Battle causes Haste to reduce the cooldown and global cooldown on CS, HotR, and Judgement.
* Inquisition is exclusive to Ret, and increases all Holy damage by 30% for 10 sec. per charge of Holy Power.

#44 saboya

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:31 PM

Wow they're making the same mistake with Sanctity of Battle, and with no mechanic to dump HP off-GCD. This is just terrible.

#45 Doogal

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:14 PM

Not sure if this is just how I am reading this but from the tooltips it looks like TV and DS require 3 HoPo to use, you cannot use it at any other point.

Not really an issue but makes me question the 3 point mechanic.

#46 Babathong

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:25 PM

* Speed of Light now has secondary bonuses based on spec:
Holy: Reduces damage taken by 20%
Prot: Increases damage done by 10%
Ret: Heals targets within 10 yards for 12 seconds

I would assume they mixed this up a bit. Slide everything down one and it looks like it should be right.

#47 saboya

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 02:12 PM

Not sure if this is just how I am reading this but from the tooltips it looks like TV and DS require 3 HoPo to use, you cannot use it at any other point.

Not really an issue but makes me question the 3 point mechanic.

I would say you're correct in your assumption. Doesn't make much sense to me as well.

#48 KnThrak

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 02:22 PM

I would assume they mixed this up a bit. Slide everything down one and it looks like it should be right.


At which point that talent would be the mandatory choice compared to the other two, however. Seeing how they're working towards avoiding that, it seems unlikely this was a mistake. Each spec can in a certain way use the bonus, and the tier is about movement speed, not another timer for one's main role.
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#49 Meloree

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 02:25 PM

Edit: beaten, redundant post.

#50 aylen86

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:28 PM

Some of the tooltips seem off:
- Blessing of Kings still increases intellect by 5%
- no change to Rebuke's cooldown yet
- I guess our Mastery bonus should affect HotR, too.
- TVs 39% weapon damage seems quite low compared to CS (176%) and Divine Storm (100%). HotR has 39%, too. This may be the source of the error, although it's to early for real number crunching.

#51 Eskostar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:41 PM

Well, auras seem to be gone completely, great change in my opinion as they added pretty much nothing besides the occasional "Dude, you got Crusader Aura on".
Avenging Wrath Back to 3 minute cooldown seems weird at first but it's now on par with the other melee cooldowns, Death Wish, Unholy Frenzy, the feral one, etc, so it's an opportunity to boost our pressure and damage outside of cooldowns.
The fact we can no longer use TV or DS with less then 3 HoPo also doesn't seem "right", but the damage with 1 or 2 charges currently is so low that I doubt anyone has ever used TV with anything below a full bar, it really should have no impact at all, specially since Inquisition and WoG/LoD still allow 1/2/3 charges to be used.

All in all can't see anything wrong in here, although I don't see the need for Crusader's Zeal, remove tons of RNG, and then add a small one, just to have something doesn't seem to fit, and I'd like Speed of Light to be boosted to 70% speed for 8 seconds, just like the Rogue Sprint, but I guess the extra effects are meant to balance that out.

#52 Exemplar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:11 PM

Aylen - why wouldn't BoK increase Int? Int is spellpower, that's valid. It simply does not boost mana pool. Value on TV is probably based on the old 1HP version, they haven't gone back and filled in the correct value for 3HP-only usage.

General
RIP Resistance Aura, you will be missed.
BoM will become Mastery? Interesting.
Only one new spell above L85? Blinding Light is cute, but is unlikely to be useful to Holy, unlikely to be used by Ret (GCD and huge mana sink), and only situationally useful even for Prot. Potentially its greatest utility is, oddly enough, battlegrounds.

L15 talents all increase movement speed, with some tiny flavour added. Underwhelming, especially when compared to Feline Swiftness (Druid), which is a flat 30% at all times in cat form. If Druids, Paladins, and Warriors need movement increasing talents (and the other classes do not!), then perhaps there's a flaw with the classes and they need something baseline. If there's not a flaw regarding movement speed... then why devote an entire talent solely to that purpose (well, Druids and Warriors have some PvP utility options).

L75 talents still all appear to be PvP-centric with no utility in PvE barring a gimmick boss. Other than Repentance, so do L30 talents. That's 1/3 of the total talents just for PvP, on top of our only new spell. None of which are even likely to catapult Paladin into flavor of the month, so I doubt even PvP Paladin are dancing in the street looking at these.

L90 talents still looks to be no choice for Ret. We'll run the numbers and one talent will uniformly win. Still possibly the most successful tier from a Ret perspective, since there would be desire for all 3 talents. Holy would probably be personal choice, good design for them. Prot will be able to increase their DPS on either of two CDs (Huzzah?), or randomly extend SotR from 5 seconds to 6.5 (as they hit it again when the GCD finishes since holding 3 HP is not a good thing - also, Huzzah?).

As a Hybrid class, designing good talents for us is no doubt extremely tough. You want multiple things that all 3 specs covet in each tier so it's a difficult decision - "I want x MORE than y, but I still really want y." This listing, like the last, is underwhelming. I know Blizzard hates classes being compared to each other, but Druids (the best comparison since they can perform all of the roles in the holy trinity) still appears to be the poster child of how to do this - their talents look interesting for all specs.

Ret
I think the most impacting Ret change is Sanctity of Battle. It reduces Judgement's CD (25% better for Judge than it is for CS) and possibly even more important it reduces the GCD of the attacks it affects. The shorter GCD on CS will smooth the 2 filler setup enormously and add gameplay. With shorter CS GCD you get the fillers out faster, which can leave a small window (0.1-0.4 seconds) before the next CS. Someone blindly following something like clcRet could be tempted to use a 3rd filler, since it was immediately available.

With Haste impacting 2 core attacks, which are both our HP generators, it could easily push Haste to top stat. Especially with Crusader's Zeal. More autoattacks means more chances to proc faster autoattacks. Factor in fewer TV (either no DivPurp, or vastly limited DivPurp that only procs off TV/DS) to drive down Mastery's value a shade. Also a Mastery raid buff pushes expected raid values of Mastery higher - the higher it gets, the more it makes Crit and Haste desirable.

Judgements of the Bold increasing physical damage by 4% for 12 seconds... with Judge at 6 seconds and its desirability as a HP generator, this should be effectively a permanent self-buff. Even on heavy movement we Judge at range unless there's absolutely nothing in range. The 12 seconds (which are what makes it effectively 100% up-time) makes it somewhat disappointing. With a shorter window there could be consideration of trying to arrange TV to fall within the window. A shorter window would have worked better with the old 8 sec Judge, however, as 6 seconds (less after Haste!) it would be hard to properly arrange it to be a short burst (4 seconds is still "huge" and 2 seconds "tiny").

So, first glance of JotB is neat, second glance is... passive buff, balanced at 100% up time. If it's gonna be passive, just make it a passive buff. Pretending it's something to work to maintain is rather silly and disingenuous.

If Speed of Light does increase damage by 10% for 12 sec as Ret, it's going to be a tough toss-up and potentially hard to math (in other words, precisely what we'd want to see from talents!). Is regularly occurring, ongoing movement buff more useful than a longer-term DPS cooldown? This would probably become a fight specific selection. Or it could be intentional that the buffs are slightly askew by spec.

Prot
Prot spec bonuses look rather bland, but I don't tank and could miss a mechanic that makes them very interesting. No extra CD - both bubbles are baseline and any spec could grab Ardent Defender. If SotR is the active defense, it's bland. At this far distant glance it looks very much like stand there and maximize your DPS, threat being irrelevant and defense being passive or pressed when HP hits 3.

SotR requires 3 HP. If this is supposed to be the "Bloody Tanking" active mitigation, it suffers a huge handicap. A Blood DK can reserve a Death Strike since their rune pool allows them to hold a full extra of each rune. Holding between 1 and 2 is fine, holding at 2 would be wasting future resources. However, our maximum HP pool is 3. If you reserve the SotR, it means you cannot earn further HP. So use every CD for more overall bonus block, or reserve for scheduled burst and deprive the future?

Also DK self-heal and shield is far more beneficial than 10% more chance to reduce physical damage by a portion.

I'd also compare SotR to Bears... but cannot. Savage Defense "reduces all physical damage by 60% for 3 seconds" for 20 rage, but Mastery increases "damage absorbed by Savage Defense ability by 15% +...". Sing with me: One of these things is not like the other, one of these things doesn't belong.

Warriors may get even shorter shrift in this snapshot. 80 rage for an extra 25% chance to reduce physical damage by a portion from the next incoming melee attack only. SotR may be 10%, but by affecting multiple incoming blows it's less at the mercy of RNG (more chances to occur means easier to reach the average).

Paladin also could (theoretically) block cap, while Warriors appear to be set that if this occurs they continue to boost Crit Block.

At an extremely undereducated glance, it's possible using all HP on Holy Shield (talent) and ignoring SotR could be more advantageous, since the shield would guaranteed absorb any sort of damage rather than chance at melee reduction. If Prot can and do block cap, then it would start beating SotR in every scenario.

Holy
No significant changes, which is acceptable. The HP mechanic, Beacon, and Divine Plea require interaction and at least a shred of active thought. Lack of increasing mana pool could be considered enough of a change to prevent the spec from feeling stagnant.

I know there's plenty of complaint that classes always change, especially at X-pacs, and that this change frightens and confuses people, potentially driving them from the game. On the other hand, plenty enjoy the revamps as the change can revitalize interest. Lack of great changes to Holy could be good, or could be bad.

Overall
Clearly a lot of changes still coming. Previews are never a time to panic (or rejoice), especially this many months in advance.

Also, I expect spell costs to be adjusted for all classes. Present values for % of base mana work because at max level you have base mana + mana from Int. When the mana-from-Int mechanic goes away, we only have base mana. Divine Light is cool, but I doubt a Holy wants to spend 35% of their total mana for one heal, even if it's big.

That raises a balance issue. Either FoL is vastly reduced so Holy could cast 10+, which also means Ret/Prot (same base mana!) could cast the same quantity (for less healing), or FoL remains 31% and Holy cannot afford to even consider it. 1/3 of your mana pool is excessive even as an 'oh shit button'.
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#53 Eskostar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:47 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but won't you have more TVs with these new talents, considering you now get HoPo from CS, Judgement, Exorcism and Hammer of Wrath, basically giving every attack HoPo generation, even if you lose Divine Purpose?

Also, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of judgements of the bold, it's not a buff for you, it's a raid (de)buff, combat rogues provide it now, and next expansion you can as well, saying it should just be passive is like saying that on Live, the aura benefit of Communion should not exist for anyone else and just be your own passive buff.

#54 Exemplar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:45 PM

Also, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of judgements of the bold, it's not a buff for you, it's a raid (de)buff

I had mis-read that, thank you. I saw it more along the lines of a Warrior's Colossus Smash, not Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat. In that case as a 100% up-time mechanic, it's fine. It's a raid buff that persists as long at that class/spec survives, which is a tried and true mechanic that seems to function as desired.

I also hadn't noticed that Exo and HoW generated HP. The latter is the more interesting, as under 20% (no HoW during AW unless you talent it) you're not only getting an extra ability (HoW), but increased HP generation. Regardless, we should indeed have more HP. Old (current) DivPurp is 15% chance of 3 HP = 0.45 HP per usage. That is significantly less than a guaranteed 1 HP per usage.

Based on my re-reading, this means every attack ability (button press, not autoattack) short of Consecration either generates HP or uses it. We may not even have time for Cons with the shorter Judge CD and potentially more TV eating GCD (then again we may have the time with no Holy Wrath).

This just emphasizes the need for the pool of HP to increase from a maximum of 3 to 6.

Edit:
I just realized our GCD are even more full than ever. I naively assumed HotR shares a CD with CS, but that is not documented anywhere. Therefore rather than "CS and 2 fillers" it becomes "CS, HotR, Filler"/"CS, Filler, HotR" with the Filler being Judgement or TV/DS. There's rarely any room to squeeze in Consecrate. Exo will have to do more than Judge to even fit in when it procs - this must be why it generates HP, otherwise we'd ignore it until we get an empty GCD, which wouldn't "shake up the rotation with a proc". Exo would need to do reasonably more than HotR/CS in order to bump them in priority (pushing back their CD). Likewise for HoW.
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#55 Ronark

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:35 PM

I'm assuming that HotR (along with Seals) will be mutually exclusive in terms of activation, as it doesn't make sense otherwise (which is still a big blow to PvPers that want to use SoJ over SoT, seeing as how are a balanced DPS wise with the latter).

I think the key factor will be the Haste to CD/GCD reduction on both CS and Judgement. In the above 20% range, we are looking at only 5 abilities to use that is not proc dependant: CS/HotR, Judgement, Consecration, TV/DS, and Inquisition. With the way the mana pools are now, there won't be room to fit in Consecration anyway. While Holy Wrath was a poor filler, it did get the job done.

#56 Jortong

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:06 PM

If Speed of Light does increase damage by 10% for 12 sec as Ret,

It's from Prot. Ret: Radiates 1000 healing to allies within 10 yards for 12 sec.

#57 Eskostar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:27 PM

While I can see Seals not having a duration, just a quality of life improvement if that even, I really can't imagine several seals at once, if they wanted that they would just bake several effects into one and they actually did the opposite, even added a new Seal of Command, so now we have a DoT seal, SoT, a direct damage seal, SoC, a healing seal, SoI, a cleaving seal, SoR and a slowing seal, SoJ.
I also can't wrap my head around CS and HotR not sharing a cooldown as that would make very little sense, the fact that the tooltips don't mention means pretty much nothing since on Live, DS and HotR share cooldown with CS and there's nothing stating so in the tooltips.

#58 Malleus

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:30 PM

I also hadn't noticed that Exo and HoW generated HP. The latter is the more interesting, as under 20% (no HoW during AW unless you talent it) you're not only getting an extra ability (HoW), but increased HP generation. Regardless, we should indeed have more HP. Old (current) DivPurp is 15% chance of 3 HP = 0.45 HP per usage. That is significantly less than a guaranteed 1 HP per usage.


But infinitely more over the course of a fight. Sanctified Wrath is more HP during AW, but that's only 20 seconds in every two minutes and we'd get no benefit from it during Execute phase when we can use Hammer of Wrath regardless.

Let's compare the three:

Crudely, Holy Avenger gives a flat 21 HP every 300 seconds, assuming GOAK is activated less than a second before TV is used for the first time and we spam HP abilities for the 10 seconds. It is automatically de-synced with GOAK stacks, but that's partially made up for by it guaranteeing we will have an ability to use in each of the first seven slots after popping - stacking will be slightly faster as a result. Also, it's 21 HP per whole or part of 300 seconds, so it's at its best in a 6-minute or 11-minute fight but suffers diminishing returns thereafter until the next breakpoint.

To beat Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath would need to allow 21 Hammer casts in 5 minutes. This is impossible, so Sanctified Wrath can be immediately discarded.

Divine Purpose generates 0.45HP for each HP ability we use. To beat Holy Avenger, we would need to use 47 HP abilities in the fight. DP procs will give another HP ability; at 15% chance to proc, we would on average get six procs from 41 abilities. With our being able to generate HP with Crusader Strike, Judgement and every fifth white swing (Exo), we will get about 8 HP every 18 seconds (I'm assuming HotR will share a CD with CS and be a DPS loss to use on a single target anyway). It will thus take 277 seconds to make enough HP for 41 HP abilities.

I don't have the tools at home to accurately graph y=(21x/277) against y=21*ROUNDUP(x/300), but I have more than a suspicion that the window in which DP beats Holy Avenger will not be wide enough to reliably hit.

#59 Exemplar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

I'm assuming that HotR (along with Seals) will be mutually exclusive in terms of activation, as it doesn't make sense otherwise (which is still a big blow to PvPers that want to use SoJ over SoT, seeing as how are a balanced DPS wise with the latter).


CS and HotR
HotR and CS being shared CD makes sense (hence my original assumption they were), but is not currently specifically listed as such. If they are exclusive, that's a lot of GCD usage (and HP generation). If they are linked then it's CS, Judge, twiddle thumbs waiting for Exo to proc or Cons to come off CD. Exclusive is as GCD locked as BC, while linked is huge, vast tracts of empty GCD. Lose-lose.

Most logically HotR and CS will be linked. If so, logical also sees the need for something such as a spammable filler that deals moderate damage. A weak spammable could go unnoticed within proc/crit fluctuation, while a strong spammable obviously competes with the desirable abilities. Skill would be using the filler to juice out noticeable extra damage while still prioritizing better attacks. The good Ret could use the spam filler when they had nothing better to do, while the 'bad' Ret would accidentally delay/skip better attacks and overuse the spam.

If no new filler attack(s) are provided, the Exo proc becomes a no-brainer. The only "should I press Exo" question would be at 3 HP, and if the HP pool is increased, even that becomes a no-brainer since the TV could be delayed for no drawback. You would simply press Exo in first empty GCD. There would be no room to separate good Ret from bad, since there would be no real thought involved in pressing the buttons.

Inq uptime as a signifier of skill should be a non-issue, even without a glyph. With so many abilities generating HP, it should be nearly impossible to drop. Even at range you could Judge and refresh. Again a filler would resolve this, as refreshing Inq excessively would mean for less GCD to fill.

On the other hand, a filler pushes a class into the must-spam-buttons arena, which Blizzard has rightly identified as not being fun (and potentially causing repetitive stress injuries). I would firmly agree with Blizzard in this regard. This inclines logic towards multiple filler spells, so priority matters.

Seals
SoJ is odd, since you could use SoT with Burden of Guilt - sacrificing the reduced stun CD for perma-slow. I'm sure a skilled PvPer could even juggle and keep 2 targets slowed (under 6 sec CD, 12 sec slow duration). It feels very out of place. I'm unsure why it remains an option at all, much less a Ret spec spell. SoC also suffers - it's the (all spec) Paladin training wheels spell, until you graduate to a real seal at higher level.

Divine Purpose
Malleus - I wasn't addressing the MoP DivPurp. I compared the fact that the baseline abilities generate a guaranteed 1 HP to the fact they presently on live (through the current version of DivPurp) produce .15 * 3 = 0.45 HP (well, slightly more, see below). Guaranteed 1 in MoP is better than today's averaged 0.45 today. Future baseline is higher and more steady than present talent.

Warning - the following is napkin math, "game may change during online play", etc. This is not nailing any coffins at this time.

Looking at those L90 talents, I'll blanket accept your Holy Avenger, as it looks good at face. A simple test when it comes out will tell if you can guarantee the timing with a GoaK+TV macro or if the server timing causes the TV to eat HP before it engages the 'freebie' effect, requiring the slight delay you mentioned. So 21 HP per 300 seconds.

Sanctified Wrath would only be viable if the few HoW it produced before 20% outweighed that TV spam. Unlikely unless HoW does massive amounts of damage, which would cause imbalance below 20% (and PvP). Agreed, unlikely to be useful. Dismissing out of hand at this time.

(New) DivPurp is more interesting. We can "bake in" self-proc chance to the base chance. Combining self proccing is simple enough: .15 * .15 = .0225. Chained out to absurd lengths (down to .15^15), then added together you get a bit under .1765 (17.65%) to generate 3 HP from a non-DivPurp finisher. .1765 * 3 = .5295 HP average per finisher. 21 HP / .5295 HP = 39.66. If you can get 40 finishers in 300 seconds, you (on average) would beat Holy Avenger.

Having Excel at my fingertips here, if we could get off a CS and Judge on every (reduced) CD, as well as Exo (with 3.5 speed weapon) then at absolutely no haste you should get 44.6 finishers. However, this number would actually be higher if you refresh Inq with only 1 or 2 HP! The small refreshes would grant more finishers (any HP use have the chance - not just the 3 HP ones), pushing this further ahead of Holy Avenger.

You're unlikely to generate (and dump) HP quite that perfectly, but then again there's also the chance to lose TV during Holy Avenger. Even at 10% slippage, DivPurp ties or beats Holy Avenger in the right timeframe. In something like a 7 minute fight where you could double-down on GoaK, Holy Avenger would leap back ahead since DivPurp wouldn't have the next few minutes to catch back up.

All in all, what with under 20% giving you another HP generator (HoW), it looks like DivPurp would generally pull ahead. Its distribution over the fight rather than requiring a short burst of proper key hammering is also possibly in its favour - it's more forgiving. Then on a fight where you know the timing is perfect, swap to Holy Avenger for crazy burst.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#60 Theck

Theck

    Don Flamenco

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 03:24 AM

I also can't wrap my head around CS and HotR not sharing a cooldown as that would make very little sense, the fact that the tooltips don't mention means pretty much nothing since on Live, DS and HotR share cooldown with CS and there's nothing stating so in the tooltips.


It's actually quite reasonable. You could very easily design a system where CS and HotR were both independent HPGs. In fact, I already did. HotR becomes a weak single-target filler in that system, but turns into your go-to HPG for AoE situations.

That said, I don't think that we can assume anything from these talents. In all likelihood, they're still linked simply because they haven't done anything but tweak the cooldown. But that may not be the long-term plan. My guess is that they've just shifted around the abilities to the appropriate levels so we can see when they're obtained, but haven't finished changing all of them.

I hope they do un-link CS and HotR the way I suggested on my blog, because it creates a distinction between the AoE and single-target rotations. Hitting button B every 3 seconds instead of button A every 3 seconds is about as trivial a difference as you can get, and doesn't pass for a "meaningful difference between single-target and AoE" rotations.


Exemplar: I think your assessment of the level 75 and 90 talents for Prot is a little off.

75: Clemency lets you BoP two targets in rapid succession, which could easily be relevant in PvE (arguably too relevant: as it stands now, it's the 'no-brainer' choice in that tier for prot).

90: Prot has no DPS sink for Holy Power, so neither Holy Avenger nor Divine Purpose give us a DPS boost. HA and Sanctified Wrath both have survivability benefits, however. Holy Avenger will let you chain-WoG/HS during GAnK, which makes GAnK an even stronger survivability cooldown. Sanctified Wrath will let you increase WoG/HS throughput (J-J-J-WoG-J-J-J-WoG), which turns AW into a moderate survivability cooldown. DP is arguably weak for prot right now, because it's a total/effective damage reduction mechanic; it gives you an extra HS/WoG/SotR every now and then, which will reduce your overall DTPS (or increase your HPS, in the case of WoGs), but on-demand survivability has historically been a stronger choice.




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