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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#21 Aldriana

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 01:20 AM

I have to admit I'm not entirely a fan of this solution. I mean, it was clear that some sort of poison refactor was in the works - they indicated at Blizzcon that they wanted to add more utility poisons, and based on the two we've seen (Leeching and Paralytic) it didn't appear that they were putting damage components on them. That said: this particular solution seems sort of... arbitrary. Artificial. Something like that. One DPS/one Utility feels like a condition imposed because it makes balance work, not because it makes sense in its own right.

Personally, I was thinking they might turn Instant Poison (and perhaps a handful of other damage poison options - for instance, one with a ignite-style stacking DoT) into a permanent weapon enchant - sort of like DK runeforges - and leave the utility ones as short-term imbues (possibly with reduced duration, to emphasize that these are something you expect to switch out on a regular basis as circumstances dictate). This would point towards the same overall goal - not making utility and damage poisons mutually exclusive - but would require less rebalancing of rogue damage generation, and would give us more utility to play with - both of which seem like desirable properties.

#22 Probaton

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 08:27 AM

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "Sub would still want Shadow Dance" and "Imp recup would be only be good if you were specced into Energetic Recovery" but that just doesn't make any sense. The talent tree IS your spec. These six talent choices are ALL the ones you're going to make.

That said I'm finding it really hard to speculate without having the foggiest clue as to which superfluous talents are going to be implemented as standard abilities and which are going out the window (Energetic Recovery is probably a goner but is Bandit's Guile going to be standard for all spec in MoP?). One thing that did catch my eye was Burst of Speed, which looks suspiciously like Sprint. Does this talent imply that our favorite speed boost's days are numbered?

As for poisons: simply scrapping Deadly would obviously be the quick and dirty solution. It's currently not listed in any of the talent descriptions so it seems possible. Gotta agree with Aldriana that it sounds forced though.

#23 Viper

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 08:44 AM

I see a lot of people saying stuff like "Sub would still want Shadow Dance" and "Imp recup would be only be good if you were specced into Energetic Recovery" but that just doesn't make any sense. The talent tree IS your spec. These six talent choices are ALL the ones you're going to make.

This isn't actually correct. You get a set of abilities baseline for all rogues, another set of abilities comes along with choosing a spec (Assassination, Combat, Subtlety), and then you have the 6 tiers of talent choices which are shared amongst all specs.

To quote from the Q&A tonight:

Q: Regarding the talent trees, will there be trees as we know them at all? I like the way you guys are moving with talents, but I wasn't sure if combat/assassination/subtlety would exist anymore at all? Using a rogue as an example, will all three trees be merged into 'Rogue' now? It's hard to tell from the examples given.
A: Specs as you know them will still exist. At level 10 you can choose Assassination and get Mutilate. We want the specs (especially for the pure classes) to be more distinct than they are today since some of the signature utility is now available to all members of that class. Specs will contain core rotational mechanics and the tools needed to perform your role. Talents complement that with various forms of utility.


As for Burst of Speed, I'm sure Sprint will still exist. Burst of Speed's niche is that it has no cooldown but instead costs energy to use.

#24 Probaton

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:40 AM

That's most gratifying to hear, Blizzard had me worried there for a second. Does anyone have a bead on where these 'base' specs can be found? Wowhead seems to be under the impression that these are the only 'specs' available. Or don't they exist yet? If so, forget I asked.

#25 Crevan

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:17 PM

One thing that did catch my eye was Burst of Speed, which looks suspiciously like Sprint. Does this talent imply that our favorite speed boost's days are numbered?


To elaborate on what Viper said, some of the talents will function as replacements for existing skills, and Burst of Speed is one of those. If you choose to spec into it, Sprint in your spell book will be replaced with BoS; if you choose some other talent, you will still have access to Sprint.

The revamped talent trees is all we were shown during Blizzcon, so what the actual specs will look like is anyone's guess. Mine is that they will be pretty much equivalent to what we have today, but with all the current mandatory talents rolled into the passive spec bonuses.

#26 liftir

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:05 PM

To elaborate on what Viper said, some of the talents will function as replacements for existing skills, and Burst of Speed is one of those.


I'm not so sure that this is the case. Spells that are replaced by talents say explicitly in their description "Replaces X". Take for example Asphyxiate for DKs and Faerie Swarm for Druids. There is nothing in the Burst of Speed description to make us think that it replaces Sprint. Of course there's always the possibility that at this early stage in MoP development that this was overlooked and not added into the description.

#27 Armanewb

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:31 PM

I'm not so sure that this is the case. Spells that are replaced by talents say explicitly in their description "Replaces X". Take for example Asphyxiate for DKs and Faerie Swarm for Druids. There is nothing in the Burst of Speed description to make us think that it replaces Sprint. Of course there's always the possibility that at this early stage in MoP development that this was overlooked and not added into the description.


It looks like a second Sprint, one that possesses the current Improved Sprint functionality. Looking at the alternatives to it, you get Shadowstep (a movement ability that is in addition to Sprint) or Preparation (a utility ability that effectively can give you a second Sprint). There is a large amount of supporting evidence from these abilities that Burst of Speed is its own entity, and not merely a replacement for Sprint.

#28 Fae

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

There is one thing that confuses me about Burst of Speed. The tooltip says "If you are afflicted by any movement impairing effects, activating this ability will instead...". Does it mean that unlike Improved Sprint that literally makes you burst out of roots (but only once), this ability doesn't give you the speed bonus if you were rooted at the time of it's activation? That would make Burst of Speed something like a package of two totally different abilitiest - either it's another Sprint, or it's a root breaker + 4s root immunity. But not both at once.

If my understanding is correct, I am not sure what to think about this design.

#29 Beepbeeps

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 07:27 PM

There is one thing that confuses me about Burst of Speed. The tooltip says "If you are afflicted by any movement impairing effects, activating this ability will instead...". Does it mean that unlike Improved Sprint that literally makes you burst out of roots (but only once), this ability doesn't give you the speed bonus if you were rooted at the time of it's activation? That would make Burst of Speed something like a package of two totally different abilitiest - either it's another Sprint, or it's a root breaker + 4s root immunity. But not both at once.

If my understanding is correct, I am not sure what to think about this design.


I read it that way as well, that you get one or the other, but not both effects. This design fits nicely into the PVP vs PVE balance of the ability which I is needed for PVP, where breaking a root/snare is powerful enough as it is, but incredibly useful for PVE if you need a second sprint or more frequent sprints in general. I don't think all abilities should be two-fold like this, but it's an easy way to balance it for both games, which Blizzard wants the ability to do.

I'm more interested in developers saying "we don't want you to spec like the guy next to you", but then having Shadow Dance be a tier 6 ability. As it stands now obviously Subtlety benefits much more from SD than the other specs, but how is that going to change? In a case where we have to choose between utility and damage, we'll always choose damage and this talent seems to only be utility for Assassination/Combat.

#30 Isebel

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:05 PM

I look at the tiers and see a lot of good utility that can be used for X fight depending on what mechanics there are behind the fights. Assuming that the core abilities in each spec now will remain in each spec in MoP:

Tier 1- Shadow Focus would probably be the best bet for all specs. Assassination and Sub already use vanish as a dps cooldown for overkill or reapplying find weakness with ambush, it would just make it so you get a free garrote/ambush. It would also make vanish more useful for combat as well to squeeze in an extra ability. I can however see sub benefiting from Subterfuge quite a bit as well, but I think it can go fight for fight.

The rest of the tiers outside of the level 90 tier seem like they would go fight for fight given that there is A LOT of utility based in those abilities. I think there are some that are better than others in your stereotypical Patchwerk fight maybe, but I could see where each of those talents could potentially have a use assuming Blizzard makes some fairly interesting boss mechanics, especially the new poisons.

Personally I think I'd like Vendetta over KS for mut/combat. Obviously KS could have it's benefits on fights where it's a very high priority to swap to a target out of range and burst it quickly. I'm not exactly sure how the new KS would work i.e. still spending a GCD on porting to a target and then another on the finisher, as mentioned by Brotherbear, and manage to squeeze out more damage than you could do under Vendetta on top of the ranged CP generator it gives. It may depend on the spec since restless blades would most likely be a big factor in whether or not it's still in the game or whether or not it might include Vendetta? Overall I see Vendetta coming out on top unless they change how KS works and boost the damage.

It's pretty clear we can only speculate on a lot of this since we don't have distinct numbers or perfect functionality yet, but overall I'm liking Vendetta for mut/combat as my gut pick and SD for Sub assuming core abilities now stay consistent in MoP.

#31 Aldriana

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:29 PM

I'd think that the level 90 choice would be based on whatever does the most damage, which will of course need to be theorycrafted out once we have all the numbers. i don't think its a matter of which you might like best - its gonna be whatever produces the largest number, except on any fights where you might have an urgent need to do a pathetic amount of damage to a target at range, or find KSp's uncontrolled movement too dangerous to use effectively.

That said: my money is currently on KSp winding up ahead when all is said and done; I also sincerely hope they revise both options (and possibly Shadow Dance as well), as I'm not a particular fan of either ability, even after their revisions.

#32 Bonzoe

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 04:54 PM

I'm more interested in developers saying "we don't want you to spec like the guy next to you", but then having Shadow Dance be a tier 6 ability. As it stands now obviously Subtlety benefits much more from SD than the other specs, but how is that going to change? In a case where we have to choose between utility and damage, we'll always choose damage and this talent seems to only be utility for Assassination/Combat.


Subtlety only benefits from SD more than other specs because of Find Weakness, but I don't think it is a given that Find Weakness will remain unchanged through 5.0. The extra damage provided by FW may be baked into sub's specialization, added to another attack in the toolkit, or removed entirely. I will be very surprised if we don't see major changes for all 3 specs, and all of the talents previewed at Blizzcon are subject to a great deal of change in the next several months. Until we know what those changes are I don't think any talents can be declared superior.

However, if they do leave sub's damage tied to SD it may in fact just be one tier where we don't really have a choice for that spec. A situation where one talent is more or less necessary may not be avoidable on all tiers for all specs.

#33 SleepySlug

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:34 PM

There are no more "specs" as we know them. Forget the current spec tree as it stands on live at the moment, because the impression I've received is that those are gone. The only thing pertaining to specs specifically is going to be that overview page we currently have where it tells you the overview of each spec. So there is no more choosing of different abilities in your "spec", those are now all built in and will be granted to you as you level in that spec.

The easiest way for me to try and summarize it all is that you have to disconnect your spec from your talent tree as they are now two VERY different things. You choose your spec and that tells you what your rotation is and how you'll play in general, e.g. Assassination gets Mutilate, Subtlety gets Hemo, Combat gets AR (I can't say for sure that these will be definitively unique abilities per spec come 5.0, but I'm just giving possible examples). Then you also choose your 6 talents which grant additional abilities that may be useful in more specific scenarios.

#34 Glytch

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:22 AM

For assassination, when we use Vendetta on boss fights the accessibility to a 30 energy 1 CP generating ability that does 145% weapon damage would let us get the 5th combo point every time when mutilating only gets us to 4 points.(That is if you mutilate to 4 points during vendetta the vengeful strike will guarantee the 5th with no loss of a combo point save for SF) We'll want to take into account that during Vendetta we'll be doing 5pt envenoms. Of course the assumption is that Assassination will play similarly to how it does on live (1+ rup 4+ env).

As a side note I find that the idea of making an anti-kiter build with DB, Deadly Throw, ShS, and vendetta is both amusing and intriguing. However the PvE merits for this seem lacking.

#35 Probaton

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:55 AM

For assassination, when we use Vendetta on boss fights the accessibility to a 30 energy 1 CP generating ability that does 145% weapon damage would let us get the 5th combo point every time when mutilating only gets us to 4 points.(That is if you mutilate to 4 points during vendetta the vengeful strike will guarantee the 5th with no possible loss of a combo point)


We already have an ability that can do just that: Sinister Strike. We don't use it because SS-ing in this way is a dps loss. Perhaps this new strike does enough damage to off-put that dps loss but the availability of a 1-cp ability does not automatically mean no more 4+ finishers.

Incidentally the chances of wasting a cp using VS to hit 5 is still not 0. If Seal Fate still exists you're still going to run the risk of critting and throwing away a cp.

#36 Hildegard

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 10:02 AM

Wouldn't Killing Spree really benefit Assasination a lot right at the start of a fight? Rupture, SnD, Envenom on the target at once could prove worthwhile.
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#37 kindath

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:25 PM

We already have an ability that can do just that: Sinister Strike. We don't use it because SS-ing in this way is a dps loss. Perhaps this new strike does enough damage to off-put that dps loss but the availability of a 1-cp ability does not automatically mean no more 4+ finishers.

Incidentally the chances of wasting a cp using VS to hit 5 is still not 0. If Seal Fate still exists you're still going to run the risk of critting and throwing away a cp.


Are you still talking about assassination? Sinister strike is a 45 energy strike with no multiplier for daggers.

Vengeful strike is closer in comparison to backstab sub-35%, which you'll note DOES do 5 combo point envenoms, even though backstab can crit and produce two combo points.


Anyway, that's an interesting usage for vengeful strike that I didn't think of, but I suspect that with the damage compared to other builders, it's designed more to just be a way to continue building combo points should you have to move away from the boss.

Wouldn't Killing Spree really benefit Assasination a lot right at the start of a fight? Rupture, SnD, Envenom on the target at once could prove worthwhile.


Very much so, but I'd be concerned about energy capping, particularly if you take shadow focus for a free opener. I'm definitely looking forward to killing spree as assassination.

The damage comparison is really between getting all your stuff rolling at the start, vs waiting a few seconds until you have five stacks of deadly and getting three full strength envenoms. I don't know which would be better.

Maybe an opener something like (free) garrote > mutilate (since energy capped) > rupture > (snd if ruth proc'd, if it even still exists | mutilate > snd) > killing spree > envenom > ks > env > ks > env?

#38 Seliathan

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:12 AM

The damage comparison is really between getting all your stuff rolling at the start, vs waiting a few seconds until you have five stacks of deadly and getting three full strength envenoms. I don't know which would be better.


Don't forget that they already mentioned that they were trying to get rid of the high ramp-up times resulting from deadly poison and bandit's guile stacking. If they do actually remove the stacks from deadly poison and make it a single stack, much like they did with the old wound poison, using KS with Assassination might actually be a good solution to get everything rolling the second the fight starts. Depending on whether they include Find Weakness for Sub, KS might be great for Sub as well for the very same reason (in case they remove Find Weakness altogether, making Shadowdance just some additional ambushes)

#39 Saweni

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:39 AM

[...]waiting a few seconds until you have five stacks of deadly and getting three full strength envenoms.[...]


The point is these three envenoms couldn't be full strength because you wouldn't take full benefit from the buff due to excessive clipping. Envenom buff is a great part of envenom's real damage output, and having to clip it (just as we will have to with the forthcoming legendary daggers) has always been a waste.

That said, it sounds pretty tricky to speculate on which spec will take the most benefit from KSp as we just don't know which talents will remain in the passive trees. As an example, the potential for synergy with both KSp and RB is awesome as a combat rogue, but we just don't know right now if RB will remain when 5.0 comes.

I would recommand to keep in mind that while opening with KSP sounds really appealing as an assassination rogue, you wouldn't take full benefit from it later during the fight.

#40 Tekloth

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 10:10 AM

Some clarification to the poisons from MMO-C, Class Design & Balance Q&A:

•Rogues will be able to use one damage poison and one utility poison without losing the damage benefits of multiple damage poisons.


And

The poisons will effectively be on both weapons at once, and running Deadly should essentially duplicate the current functionality of dual Instant+Deadly, allowing you to focus on which secondary poison best suits your current situation.


So we're seeing both poisons on both weapons at the same time.

Now, to address another issue in our talents in the current state for MoP, Burst of Speed. A non-cooldown spell removing all movement impairing effects and making you immune to them for the next 4 seconds (or a 2nd sprint if not under the effect of an MIE). A 2nd cloak against any magic using classes with roots, if you will. In PvP, you could consider this almost godlike if you're trying to run away from any class that relies on MIE:s for kiting, or trying to catch one. Do you think it'll make it as far as release before something is done to it, or will it stay as it is?

Of course we need to remember the energy cost, but what else are you going to use your energy on, if you have no target close to you and have no CP's, when you can possibly regen half, if not even most of the energy back before reaching your target.




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