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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#41 Crevan

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 02:32 PM

In addition to the poison changes Tekloth mentioned, there was also a confirmation that Bandit's Guile will become "an inherent buff on the Rogue", further reducing the penalty we suffer from target swapping.

In PvP, you could consider this almost godlike if you're trying to run away from any class that relies on MIE:s for kiting, or trying to catch one. Do you think it'll make it as far as release before something is done to it, or will it stay as it is?

Keep in mind that BoS shares the talent tier with Preparation and Shadowstep, which are pretty much mandatory for rogue pvp today. With competition like this, I doubt it's going to be a no-brainer choice.

Finally, something not rogue-specific but still relevant to us: simplified raid buff system:

New raiding model that gives 8 buffs; Health, Attack Power, Spell Power, Melee Haste, Spell Haste, Crit, Mastery and Primary Stats.

So, we won't have to worry about armour and bleed debuffs (and about magic damage taken to some extent).

#42 Armanewb

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:41 PM

So, we won't have to worry about armour and bleed debuffs (and about magic damage taken to some extent).


I think you are incorrect on this. To quote the answer the rest of the way, "Also remember there are still debuffs and utility abilities, such as knockbacks and snares."

#43 Crevan

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:57 PM

I think you are incorrect on this. To quote the answer the rest of the way, "Also remember there are still debuffs and utility abilities, such as knockbacks and snares."

Utility abilities and debuffs, like the mentioned snares and knockbacks, are not meant to affect dps. And in fact, looking over the transcript of the first live Q&A with developers (27th of October), GC said the following: "We are removing some of the less interesting buffs and debuffs (+bleed damage, armor, 3% damage, resists are all on the chopping block at the moment)."

#44 Jehiren

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:56 AM

I was looking through the calculator, and it appears that all rogues will get Fleet Footing at lvl 62. However, it no longer appears to have it's 20% hp increase, and is just 15% free move speed.

Interesting if this will make it to live and nice that it will free up boot enchants.


Personally I'm disappointing that you have to decide between Shadowstep and Prep. I'm not sure what model blizz is going for PvP in 5.0, but this feels like a step in the wrong direction to try to get more people interested in playing rogues, on either PvE or PvP side.

I'm looking forward to, and hoping for, a decent sized overhaul once alpha/beta starts to go around.

#45 sinnaa

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:14 AM

Personally I'm disappointing that you have to decide between Shadowstep and Prep. I'm not sure what model blizz is going for PvP in 5.0, but this feels like a step in the wrong direction to try to get more people interested in playing rogues, on either PvE or PvP side.


I would have to agree with this. Mobility has been and issue and this seems to limit it more than ever for PVP. However, I think the choice is extremely nice for a PvE setting. The ability to use prep as any spec seems to be a very nice addition to the PvE rogue imo. There are a lot of fights in the past where having double cloak could easily have saved a rogue. Additionally, an extra vanish and sprint won't seem to bring additional utility for rogues, especially if you take Subterfuge or Shadow Focus. I think Preparation would be my go to talent for PvE (of course, this would depend on how they design encounters in MoP, but I think the added benefit of double cloak/vanish outweighs that of teleporting to a target and spending 60 energy on a sprint).

I wanted to make sure I am reading the new Killing spree correctly. If I am reading it correcly, you get to use the ability and generate an instant 5 combo points on that target. If that is correct, it seems pretty nice. I would guess you would get 15 free combo points out of it, assuming you used it then the finisher each time. Anyone else reading it the same or differently? I think past discussion has pointed more towards you get 5 cps over the course of the 5 seconds. This may be OP for PvP. Having 15 combo points in 5 seconds, along with the damage it deals, seems like a way to instagib someone.

Along with KS, Vendetta seems really nice for both PvE and PvP. We all know th trouble of ranging a boss/enemy. Not only does the talent give us increased damage, it also lets us deal with those times where the boss it OOR fairly well. Granted, it isn't going to produce the greatest damage, but some damage is greater than no damage. It is hard to say how useful it will end up being in the beginning of MoP, but I would see this being very useful on specific encounters.

While there is some lack of useful talents in certain tiers for either PvP or PvE (i.e. lvl 75 for PvE, unless the have an encounter like H-Nef where crippling poison was OP), I think these new talents will bring some interesting playstyle to rogues.

As far as talents go, I am a little worried about what they have listed on the site. Currently, I am not seeing passive abilities for things such as imp SnD, Precision, Agression, Savage Combat, Ruthlessness, etc. I am sure there is a whole list of other ones, but I was specifically looking at the current combat build vs new talents for rogues. Do you think that they are removing this sorts of additions from rogues, they haven't been implemented yet, or they just want to remove them? Thoughts?

#46 Ryazan

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:20 AM

I guess I'm interpreting that thing correctly when I say some of our current core abilities (like Envenom and Backstab) have been moved as spec-only abilities?
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#47 Improved

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

In the current form of pvp right now, not having shs or prep is definitely a game breaker. I think Blizzard will realize this soon enough and fix it. Prep does not only reset Vanish, smoke bomb and sprint but also cloak and evasion. It such a powerful talent that nothing can really compete with it, especially not 2 'mobility' talents.

What is left to subtlety itself is pitiful, it feels like they took all the cool abilities that made sub unique and offer them to the other specs too. Something else isn't helping the situation on that regard and it's the level 90 talents. While it is cool that they are revamping those abilities and let's face it some changes were needed, especially for killing spree, I find it deceiving that they chose to go on that way instead or creating new and fun talents. I feel like the current level 90 talents, shouldn't be talents but go back in their original spec only.

When our different specs start using the same core abilities that used to be unique to certain specs, some of the game play is lost and it homogenizes our class. I like the idea to give the players more choices but giving too many choices like the level 90 tier does in his current form for every specs will do the opposite in the end.

Also no pve sub rogue would ever pick something else than shadow dance since of find weakness..

#48 orderofmaken

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:59 AM

I can't seem to find Rupture in any of the class, spec or all ability lists of all three specs either at the moment after briefing skimming through.

#49 Kirik

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:14 PM

Didn't find neither Rupture, nor Master Poisoner
Any thoughts of mutilate playstyle in MoP ?

#50 Kroyfel

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:28 PM

I can't seem to find Rupture in any of the class, spec or all ability lists of all three specs either at the moment after briefing skimming through.


There is no Rupture and yet Assassination gets Venomous Wounds and Sub gets Serrated Blades which either indicates that they forgot to add rupture or they are redesigning said abilities. I'm also not seeing Energetic Recovery.

#51 ieatpaperbag

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:42 PM

There is no Rupture and yet Assassination gets Venomous Wounds and Sub gets Serrated Blades which either indicates that they forgot to add rupture or they are redesigning said abilities. I'm also not seeing Energetic Recovery.

I think it's safe to say that a large portion of this was just straight converted from current talent trees and that there are still changes coming; there was a blue post indicating that DP was being removed and a new poison system was going to be put in place and yet we still see DP listed as a class ability. The only real changes (already mentioned) are materializing Murderous Intent into an ability (currently hitting harder than Backstab), limiting some abilities to specs (Backstab and Envenom), and making RS and a nerfed Fleet Footed baseline. Other than Energetic Recovery and above mentioned Master Poisoner there are a number of DPS talents missing as well

Assassination:
Lethality
Ruthlessness
Puncturing Wounds
Cold Blood
Vile Poisons
Master Poisoner

Combat:
Improved Sinister Strike
Precision
Aggression
Improved Slice and Dice
Savage Combat

Subtlety:
Improved Ambush
Energetic Recovery
Slaughter from the Shadows
Elusiveness
Initiative

I would guess that "Improved <ability>" talents are being removed as passive skills (Improved Recuperate remains as a talent). Savage Combat was already suggested for removal in the revamp preview of raid debuffs. Master Poisoner missing coincides with the suggestion that DP was being removed. There was a discussion a while back about the questionable philosophy of Energetic Recovery, I would guess with the advent of Leeching Poison, the combination of the two would be ridiculous. I think most can agree that Cold Blood was a pretty poor cooldown and that it is a good thing to see that it is missing.
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#52 Kirik

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:01 PM

I think it's safe to say that a large portion of this was just straight converted from current talent trees and that there are still changes coming; there was a blue post indicating that DP was being removed and a new poison system was going to be put in place and yet we still see DP listed as a class ability. The only real changes (already mentioned) are materializing Murderous Intent into an ability, limiting some abilities to specs (Backstab and Envenom), and making RS and a nerfed Fleet Footed baseline.


Didn't they remove only DP stacks?

#53 Ozzmar

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:35 PM

In the current form of pvp right now, not having shs or prep is definitely a game breaker. I think Blizzard will realize this soon enough and fix it. Prep does not only reset Vanish, smoke bomb and sprint but also cloak and evasion. It such a powerful talent that nothing can really compete with it, especially not 2 'mobility' talents.


Having been around the rogue community off and on for years, I can guarantee Blizzard is keenly aware of the potency of Preparation, seeing as they have nerfed the crap out of it numerous times...

- Level 70 - Took Blade Flurry out from rogues mace stunning people to death
- Took Cloak of Shadows out of it so rogues aren't basically invincible vs. casters for ~10 seconds

It's purely speculative, but their recent change to allow players to earn Conquest Points from UN-rated battlegrounds [ie, without doing RBGs or Arena] may be a reason they'd be hesitant to give any leeway back with Preparation. Prep is a staple in Arenas for sure, and to a lesser extent in Rated BGs (Smoke Bomb-ing FCs), but it's far less vital in a simple BG match, which is what I suspect a majority of players will flock to if they aren't Arena fans and are frustrated trying to find a good RBG group.

Minor side note: Prep resets Shadowstep, not Cloak*

#54 Enzo90910

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 03:54 PM

I don't see the daggers requirement on the new Mutilate. But since Dispatch (the new <35% backstab) has said requirement, I guess it only means you can now use non-daggers while leveling as Assasination.

#55 Reeve

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:13 PM

I don't see the daggers requirement on the new Mutilate. But since Dispatch (the new <35% backstab) has said requirement, I guess it only means you can now use non-daggers while leveling as Assasination.


I'm sure that's probably a tooltip error.

#56 Grailwatcher

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:53 PM

I can't seem to find Rupture in any of the class, spec or all ability lists of all three specs either at the moment after briefing skimming through.


It (rupture) isn't listed although that is most likely an error as serrated blades(Sub) still has a 20% chance per CP to refresh Rupture; as well as Venomous Wounds (Ass.) still exists (base damage increased from 675 to 855).

The synergy of Assassination(overkill/Venomous Wounds) with subterfuge, Prep, and Shadow Dance has alot of potential for a tremendous amount of increased energy regen thoughout an encounter.

Envenom obviously isn't what the future envenom will be, based on their stated design intent of using 1 damage/1 utility poison, as well as removing the ramp up time for DP stacks. I'm very curious to see how that plays out and what the overarching effects will be on the rotation.

#57 Zafo

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:04 PM

Killing Spree, as I interpret it from their explanation at Blizzcon, is improved in such a way that you will not jump to multiple nearby targets by default. If you want to stay on the same target the entire time, do nothing. However, if you want to jump around to multiple targets, you can press the killing spree button again and you will jump each time you press it. You're limited to 5 jumps at 1 jump per second. Generating 5 combo points is just their way of making sure that your last target has 5 points when you finish. You won't be able to do anything else, such as finishers, during Killing Spree so you'll only have the 5 to spend when it's done.

That's my take on it anyways.

It looks like Overkill is still in its current form on the list, meaning that Prep will be a 'must have' for Assassination since it resets Vanish, which is unfortunate.

#58 Previn

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:21 PM

Sub really looks like a mess right now especially for leveling and PvP. Backstab is delayed until 40, Subterfuge looks like a must have from the first tier for them and hemo is the level 10 spec move with no bleeds since rupture is missing entirely at the moment. With a quick eyeball it looks like assassination is going to be king of PvP by a long shot, so sub will probably drop off the radar again for people playing it.

#59 Aldriana

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:29 PM

I would encourage people to avoid reading too much into the current state of the talents posted. Its not even up-to-date with what they've announced in terms of changes to Bandit's Guile and damage poisons, and has obvious glaring omissions (like Rupture). Hence, I wouldn't read too much into the current oddities of the trees. Yes, Revealing Strike is currently strictly better than Sinister Strike. Yes, Hemo is now strictly better than Backstab. Yes, Overkill still exists, Bandit's Guile still sucks, and so on. What we have is a direct port of our more interesting abilities into the new system, which means that the changes they have promised us are not yet present, and the absence of some of our more boring DPS talents (like Improved Sinister Strike and Opportunity) creates some oddities in terms of relative ability power. It is absolutely the case that it would be highly undesirable for things to launch in this form. It is also the case that they almost certainly won't. So I would encourage people to focus on what's actually changed rather than what has stayed the same, and not worry excessively about the exact numerical tuning of abilities at this stage.

Personally, I think the most interesting changes so far are that the run speed bonus of Fleet Footed is now a passive benefit for all specs, and that the positional dependence of Assassination's execute mechanic has been removed.

Killing Spree, as I interpret it from their explanation at Blizzcon, is improved in such a way that you will not jump to multiple nearby targets by default. If you want to stay on the same target the entire time, do nothing. However, if you want to jump around to multiple targets, you can press the killing spree button again and you will jump each time you press it. You're limited to 5 jumps at 1 jump per second. Generating 5 combo points is just their way of making sure that your last target has 5 points when you finish. You won't be able to do anything else, such as finishers, during Killing Spree so you'll only have the 5 to spend when it's done.


This is not my understanding. From reading the ability and from talking to some people at Blizzcon, I believe the current design is that each jump of KSp provides 5 combo points, such when you use it you will alternate KSp jumps with finishers. This will only be remotely usable if they remove KSp from the GCD; I don't know if that's planned or not. Frankly, I think the free finishers (echoing our legendary proc) is a more interesting cooldown without all the jumping around; I suppose its helpful for cheap multiDoTing of packs, allowing a 5pt rupture on 5 different targets, but all in all I'd rather have free finishers as a distinct mechanic from KSp.

#60 Grailwatcher

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:48 PM

Having been around the rogue community off and on for years, I can guarantee Blizzard is keenly aware of the potency of Preparation, seeing as they have nerfed the crap out of it numerous times...

Minor side note: Prep resets Shadowstep, not Cloak*


Your are thinking of the current iteration of Preparation in game now 4.2/4.3. Reread the tooltip for the MoP version. Prep resets:

Sprint
Vanish
Cloak
Evasion
Dismantle
Smokebomb

Also, Cloak as it is listed maintains it's 2min cd, and elusiveness(sub) is no where to be found resulting in Sub losing more of its CD reduction ability and a pvp nerf (if they don't port all the cd reduction/damage boost talents at a later date)


Personally, I think the most interesting changes so far are that the run speed bonus of Fleet Footed is now a passive benefit for all specs, and that the positional dependence of Assassination's execute mechanic has been removed.



the addition of fleet footed is absolutely a huge benifit for all the specs, I am however, disappointed to see the increased healing received removed from the ability. With the advent of leeching poison (if the 1damage/1utility poison plan does happen) it most likely won't be too missed.

edit for grammer




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