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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs

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#61 Harne


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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:48 PM

I think you are underestimating the value for Elemental. In my gear a base non-crit lightning bolt is close to double the damage you used and that is ignoring crits, overloads and lightning shield charges generated. A more realistic value would probably be something like 35k (or more), which gives results between 104 dps and 250 dps using your math.

#62 Pyrdon


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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:04 PM

I think so too, since I only used the raw tooltip numbers from a premade shaman (which cannot even wear their given belts *sigh*) without any buffs or something.
So yeah, I thought that the actual numbers will be higher - and that's just good.

#63 Dillerpoelse


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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:43 PM

Regarding tier 3/level 45 talents(resto PoV):

Right off the bat Call of the Elements seems like an obvious choice, but Totemic Restoration is in my opinion completely viable as well.

Call of the Elements pros:
-Allows use of both SLT and HTT two times in a row, allowing really strong burst healing and protection(SLT).
-Increases the uptime on SLT, HTT and MTT.

Totemic Restoration pros:
-Allows a more frequent usage of MTT, HTT, Grounding Totem(situational) and SLT for a more steady performance rather than burst.
-Prevents the last part of CDs to be wasted in case raid is stable after CDs have been used.
-Works really good with Totemic Recall(glyphed), basically makes HTT and SLT manafree.

In most scenarios SLT's first tick is always the most important. It usually(for me anyway) saves the tank on very low HP, and then everything is fine again, making the ticks after the first less worthy(and sometimes completely wated). That is the most important thing to notice, because Totemic Restoration allows you to use SLT for the first tick, save the tank, and pull it back up and have it ready within 1,5 min - dobbles the amount of "first ticks"

I have been testing it out a bit on beta, Totemic Restoration doesn't seem to work 100% correctly, but will probably get fixed, it's beta anyway. If I detroy a totem at 50% duration, it doesn't reduce the CD by 50% but less than that.

#64 Cm1


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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

Echo of the Elements (Resto)

I've been playing around with the Echo of the Elements talent for resto on beta 15781. At first I was expecting to see something in the combat log to identify a second proc for a given cast such as "Gruknar's Echo of the Elements casts..." but the log just identifies that there's a second cast of the same spell, which I guess makes sense but doesn't make it particularly easy to identify.

I was keen to identify if the 2nd spell (caused by Echo) was able to crit, and if so, would it be able to proc Ancestral Awakening, Resurgence or Earthliving.

I haven't had a chance for extensive testing, but I can confirm that the 2nd (Echo) spell is able to crit, irrespective of the original spell not critting. This doesn't fit with the tooltip that states: "When one of your spells causes direct damage or healing, you have a chance to gain Echo of the Elements, duplicating that spell's effect.".

I was alternating between Healing Wave and Greater HW to make easy identification in the combat log. So when my normal cast doesn't crit and the Echo spell does crit, I can also confirm that Ancestral Awakening does proc from Echo but Resurgence does not.

Not enough testing done to see if a 1st crit and echo crit will proc two AAs.

It's worth noting that if the original cast does proc Echo, the AA for that first cast is appearing after the Echo spell in the combat log.

The actual proc rate for Echo in general is low, but as a flat passive, it's rather quite nice to have.
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#65 Cm1


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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:11 AM

Further to my last post about Echo of the Elements procs being able to cause AA / Resurgence / Earthliving, I've managed to do a much longer (~400 casts) test on the latest Beta (15799).

The full log file is here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis.

Most notable information:
  • Echo procs can crit irrespective of initial spell critting
  • Echo procs that do crit do proc Ancestral Awakening
  • Echo procs are not proccing Resurgence
  • Earthliving proc / refresh on Echo not seen
  • There is no apparent internal cooldown on Echo proccing
  • 458 HW casts, 42 Echo procs = 9.17% proc rate on my sample.

Some useful parts of the full log:

Echo critting, initial cast not:
[10:13:20.856] Fdgfdgfds begins to cast Healing Wave
[10:13:23.024] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 20237)
[10:13:23.306] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +*0* (O: 41457)

No ICD seen (3 procs back to back):
[10:10:57.919] Fdgfdgfds begins to cast Healing Wave
[10:11:00.069] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 19843)
[10:11:00.069] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 20480)
[10:11:00.937] Fdgfdgfds begins to cast Healing Wave
[10:11:03.119] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +*0* (O: 40007)
[10:11:03.354] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 20698)
[10:11:03.952] Fdgfdgfds begins to cast Healing Wave
[10:11:06.104] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 20718)
[10:11:06.104] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 20694)

Initial and Echo proc critting and both causing AA but not Resurgence:
[10:10:12.234] Fdgfdgfds begins to cast Healing Wave
[10:10:13.634] Fdgfdgfds Earthliving Fdgfdgfds +*0* (O: 4482)
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +*0* (O: 41592)
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds gains 2635 mana from Fdgfdgfds's Resurgence
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds's Ancestral Vigor is refreshed by Fdgfdgfds
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds gains Expansive Mind (8) from Fdgfdgfds
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds gains Velocity from Fdgfdgfds
[10:10:14.384] Fdgfdgfds Healing Wave Fdgfdgfds +*0* (O: 43065)
[10:10:14.767] Fdgfdgfds's Ancestral Vigor is refreshed by Fdgfdgfds
[10:10:14.767] Fdgfdgfds Ancestral Awakening Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 12477)
[10:10:15.267] Fdgfdgfds Ancestral Awakening Fdgfdgfds +0 (O: 12920)

e: proc chance and sample size
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#66 Jessamy


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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

That proc rate is very good when compared with elemental mastery and ancestral swiftness. Both those alternatives provide an average 5% haste (AS gives a bit more with the instant cast on use effect), which is a pure 5% bonus to hps throughput, but also a 5% increase to mps costs. In a perfect no-overheal environment, echo provides double the hps benefit with your observed proc rate with no mana cost, an attractive choice for efficiency.

Of course single target heals like those you tested will have significant overhealing on echo heals, providing balance. I'm curious how chain heal echo procs will work. Will it just duplicate the healing effect on individual targets? Or will the whole chain be duplicated, including the possibility to pick new smart heal targets? I can make or copy a warlock to the beta and spam life tap to help you test group heals if you're willing to continue your research.

#67 Cm1


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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

Nice thinking Jessamy.

I managed to get a couple friendly Warlocks to Life Tap while I CHeal spammed. It wasn't the most organised of tests, but I did prove a couple things:

  • CHeal can proc Echo
  • When CHeal procs from Echo, the whole spell is duplicated
  • The CHeal Echo was targeting the lower HP of my two test subjects

Full log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Log snippet:

7/1 12:25:58.822  SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x80000000,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8

7/1 12:25:58.822  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000048E995,"Tricel",0x10512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,15205,0,0,nil
7/1 12:25:58.822  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0100000000493474,"Lockisocki",0x512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,22273,0,0,nil

7/1 12:26:01.222  SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x80000000,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8

7/1 12:26:01.332  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0100000000493474,"Lockisocki",0x512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,14720,0,0,nil
7/1 12:26:01.332  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000048E995,"Tricel",0x10512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,22164,0,0,nil

7/1 12:26:02.103  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000048E995,"Tricel",0x10512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,14952,0,0,nil
7/1 12:26:02.103  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0100000000493474,"Lockisocki",0x512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,19996,0,0,nil

7/1 12:26:03.453  SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x80000000,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8

7/1 12:26:03.453  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0100000000493474,"Lockisocki",0x512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,14292,0,0,nil
7/1 12:26:03.453  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000048E995,"Tricel",0x10512,0x0,1064,"Chain Heal",0x8,20973,0,0,nil

I agree that Echo is a nice passive talent for Resto, yes it will create higher overheal, but as a flat passive, i'm happy with it.
Arguing with a fool proves there are two. - Doris M. Smith

#68 Cheysuli


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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:58 PM

This has appeared on official forums by Ghostcrawler:

Echo of the Element’s proc chance is 6% for Elemental and Restoration, and 30% for Enhancement.

Beta Class Balance Analysis - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

#69 Cm1


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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

And this follow up on Echo:

Will Echo be able to proc from Elemental's mastery? I would assume not, but the wording on the talent doesn't make it clear one way or the other. Also, does the effect have any type of internal cool down?
Yes, Overloads can be Echoed. Echo only has a very short ICD to prevent it from triggering from multiple hits of the same spellcast.

I'll try and do more Healing Wave testing to prove the 6% proc chance.
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#70 Cm1


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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:46 AM

With the 15799 beta build, and the stated 6% proc chance of Echo of the Elements for Resto, I can confirm that:

  • 1100 Healing Wave casts
  • 1164 Healing Wave heals
  • 64 procs
  • 5.82% proc chance

Close enough to be as stated. Also tested how Unleash Elements (Life) was working with Echo. Echo can proc a second heal for EL and it also refreshes the buff (no, they don't stack):

7/6 12:19:46.257  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,7618,7618,0,nil
7/6 12:19:46.267  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:19:46.267  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73680,"Unleash Elements",0x8
7/6 12:19:46.267  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,105284,"Ancestral Vigor",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:19:46.267  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,107962,"Expansive Mind",0x1,BUFF
7/6 12:19:56.249  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:19:56.249  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,107962,"Expansive Mind",0x1,BUFF
7/6 12:20:01.259  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,105284,"Ancestral Vigor",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:20:03.529  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,14942,14942,0,1
7/6 12:20:03.529  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:20:03.529  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73680,"Unleash Elements",0x8

Finally, using EL followed by GHW, found that Echo procs on the GHW do not benefit from the EL enhanced buff:

7/6 12:16:13.476  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,7463,7463,0,nil
7/6 12:16:13.476  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:16:13.476  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73680,"Unleash Elements",0x8
7/6 12:16:13.476  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,105284,"Ancestral Vigor",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:16:13.476  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,107962,"Expansive Mind",0x1,BUFF
7/6 12:16:14.986  SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x80000000,77472,"Greater Healing Wave",0x8
7/6 12:16:17.156  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,77472,"Greater Healing Wave",0x8,46481,46481,0,nil
7/6 12:16:17.156  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,73685,"Unleash Life",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:16:17.486  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,105284,"Ancestral Vigor",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:16:17.486  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,51945,"Earthliving",0x8,BUFF
7/6 12:16:17.496  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,107962,"Expansive Mind",0x1,BUFF,2
7/6 12:16:17.496  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,0x010000000002E0D9,"Fdgfdgfds",0x511,0x0,77472,"Greater Healing Wave",0x8,36951,36951,0,nil

e: copy paste fail
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#71 nilshaus


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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:30 AM

Am I mistaken in thinking that the level 45 talents have a clear dps winner? Neither Call of the Elements nor Totemic Projection have much dps use but Totemic Restoration would allow one to better buff elementals with trinket procs, correct (under the impression that elementals now update constantly instead of snapshoting stats)?

#72 Ryethe


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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:41 PM

Am I mistaken in thinking that the level 45 talents have a clear dps winner? Neither Call of the Elements nor Totemic Projection have much dps use but Totemic Restoration would allow one to better buff elementals with trinket procs, correct (under the impression that elementals now update constantly instead of snapshoting stats)?

There's some definite potential here.

Using Kiroptyric Sigil as an example, you could use the fire ele glyph and recall him at 18 seconds to give you a new CD of 1:30 (which lines up perfectly with your trinket CD. Your ele would then only be up when your trinket it up and would gain 2k+ agility for 15 seconds of his 18 second life (83% uptime).

It gets a bit trickier when you start using trinkets with different ICDs since things won't line up this perfectly. Also Totemic Recall uses a GCD so that needs to be factored into the equation (EDIT: You can just right click kill it without the GCD hit) . Definitely something to test in the enhsim or simc once they are updated.

#73 nilshaus


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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:03 PM

It would seem the devs don't intend the talent to work this way (and that the tooltip is horribly misleading).

The Totemic Restoration talent does not appear to be working as the spell description indicates on totems with longer than a 1 minute CD.
The examples you gave seem to match what is intended. The cooldown is reduced by half the percentage of the duration that was lost. If your Spirit Link totem is pulled back up after 3sec (50% lost duration), its cooldown will be reduced by 25% of the full cooldown, or 45sec.

The devs seem fairly convinced they don't want that tier to benefit performance (as opposed to situational utility) in any way.

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