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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#1 Carebare

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:34 PM

Please use this thread to discuss Warlocks in the Mists of Pandaria expansion. Avoid excessive wish-listing and whining. Constructive criticism is fine. Make sure you are making a useful post. "I like X" is not useful. "I like X because it allows this or that" is useful. Common sense applies, if you're not sure feel free to PM a moderator or administrator. Thanks.

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#2 Ronark

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:14 AM

Talents as previewed at 2011's Blizzcon event.

Tier 1- Requires level 15:

Dark Regeneration [Instant, 3 min CD]: Restores50% of max HP over 25 seconds.
Soul Leech: Shadowbolt, Incinerate, and Malefic Grasp (Demonology filler spell?) heal for 25% of damage done
Harvest of Life [Channeled, 3 sec duration]: Drains life from the target and all targets within 10 yards causing 92 shadow damage and heals for 2% max HP per target every 1 sec. Re-casting before it ends extends the duration by 3 sec, up to 5 times.


Tier 2- Requires level 30:

Howl of Terror [IC, 40 sec CD]: Howl, causing 5 enemies within 10 yards to flee for 8 seconds. Damage may interrupt the effect.
Mortal Coil [IC, 45 sec CD]: Causes the target to run in Horror for 3 sec. Caster gains 25% max HP.
Shadowfury [IC, 20 sec CD]: Stuns all enemies in targeted 8 yards for 3 sec.


Tier 3- Requires level 45:

Hour of Twilight [90 sec CD]: When brought under 20% HP, all damage taken reduced by 50% for 10 sec.
Soul Link: All damage and healing received is split with the active demon.
Sacrificial Pact [5 min CD]: Sacrifices the demon to prevent all damage taken for 10 sec.


Tier 4- Requires level 60:

Bloodstone [2 min CD]: Restores 44% base health and increases healing received by 50% for 10 sec.
Spell Drain [IC, 20 sec CD]: Next single target spell received within 4 sec heals for 50% of the damage it would have done otherwise.
Nether Ward: Transforms Twilight Ward into Nether Ward, absorbing 3141 damage for 30 seconds. Nether Ward causes you to taken 15% reduced damage from the school of magic that it absorbs.


Tier 5- Requires level 75:

Grimore of Supremacy: Increases damage from Demons by 10% and more powerful abilities, works on all summons and both Infernal and Doomguard.
Grimore of Service [2 min CD]: Instantly summons a second demon for 30 seconds.
Grimore of Sacrifice [2 min CD]: Sacrifices the demon to increase the caster's health and damage for 3 minutes. Summoning a demon cancels the effect.


Tier 6- Requires level 90:

Archimonde's Vengeance [60 sec CD]: Curses and enemy, causing them to take 25% of the damage the caster receives for 15 seconds.
Kil'jaeden's Cunning: Allows casting and channeling while moving, but increases cast time/tick intervals.
Illidan's Guile [2 min CD]: Shadowbolt, Incinerate, and Malefic Grasp cause splash damage to enemies within 10 yards of the spell's target for 30 sec.

#3 MBar

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:03 PM

Probably worth noting here the proposed resource changes incoming for Warlocks:

  • Unique resources for each spec.
  • Affliction will continue to use Soul Shards, but with improvements.
  • Demonology will use Demonic Fury. Demonic Fury builds during combat, and when maxed transforms you into Meta / Demon Form. Additional abilities available for Meta. Supposedly, you will be in Meta more often.
  • Destruction will use Infernal Embers. Fire spells build up bonus damage, which is then released through nukes.


#4 Namnalia

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:29 PM

First of all, I really like the new talent system because the current system does not give you a real degree of freedom when it comes to personal preferences in abilities: The cookie cutter builds nearly take all the talent point there are, and a decision like "I need a damage reducing cooldown" forces you to a certain spec (e.g. destruction for nether protection) which has a lot of disadvantages of all kinds (e.g. missing buffs for the raid). 18 talents put into 6 tiers would give you an enormous amount of possibilities (3^6, obviously) if all of them would be viable.

The tiers seem to be sorted by "type of action" which also makes sense, this way you are not able to (and therefore don't feel forced to) stack (e.g. stack self heal on a healing intense encounter or mobility on a movement strong encounter).

Going into detail for the different tiers (always having PvE progression raids in mind):

Tier 1 is the health regeneration tier. The normal choice would probably be Soul leech: Current Simcraft numbers give roughly 6-7k dps with your main nuke, so this talent would provide about 1.5k HPS, healing you for roughly 1% per second. Dark Regeneration heals for roughly twice as much, but as it does not heal you for 155s afterwards I would call it rather situational. Probably it would become a far more interesting choice with half the runtime when it would actually help in "heal the raid to 100% before bad things happen" situations. Harvest of life might be useful when AoE-tanking many mobs but seems even more situational.

Tier 2 is the crowd control tier. While it's sad to see DC become a non-baseline spell, one can easily see how this tier will be adapted to the encounter: No cc possible means DC for the selfheal, stunable adds make Shadowfury interesting, Howl of Terror will probably be a rare choice for PvE.
EDIT: I concluded from the spell similarity of Mortal Coil to Death Coil that DC will vanish. If DC still exists baseline, MC will probably overwrite it as Nether Ward does now overwrite Shadow Ward.

Tier 3 is the defensive tier. The obvious choice is Soul Link (which, again, will not be baseline anymore as it seems). Sacrifical Pact will probably only be interesting when you're in a very special role, Hour of Twilight looks like PvP again.

Tier 4 is the active selfheal tier. Bloodstone is just a significantly stronger health stone, the interesting question is whether or not it really is usuable every 2 minutes. Spell Drain seems rather unusable in PvE because normaly you are not targeted by single target spells of a boss and even when you are, they are usually instant casts. Nether ward is a well known tool for us, so it will probably be a situational decision between NW and Bloodstone.

Tier 5 is the enhanced (or dead) demon tier. All three choices seem viable in one situation or the other: Supremacy will probably be the standard, Service and Sacrifice can be seen as damage cooldowns (most probably, Sacrifice is not viable for demonology, though). I personally don't like this tier because Supremacy is a flat dps increase, exactly what should not be in the talent tiers anymore.

Tier 6 is the special abilities tier: I don't see many situations where Archimonde's Vengeance might be useable. Kil'Jaeden's Cunning's worth largely depends on the damage decrease. In the current spell environment it seems a poor choice as you can keep all DoTs up while moving anyway and Fel Flame does significant damage. I interpreted this as a hint that you won't be able to keep up your dps while moving in the future. Illidan's Guile only makes sense when there are unimportant targets near the boss (otherwise you would AoE them) or two bosses next to each other. Splash damage is nice, but we already have decent AoE and the ability to dot more than one target, so I'm not really convinced.

All in all, there are at least two interesting talents in each tier giving a lot of variety which I'm looking forward to.

#5 netsach

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:53 PM

I wonder how the 8% magic debuff spreading will be implemented, if it's kept at all, of course. Now that jinx is out of the way for sure, i can't seem to find anything related to earth and moon, ebon plaguebringer or master poisoner in the new talent system for the other classes. Maybe they consider that given the multiple class that provide it today, they might as well as remove it completely : this would acknowledging the fact that it's uptime is already almost 100% in the majority of raid groups, given the fact that mindless or passive debuffing is not "an added or enjoyable gamplay".

The same goes for the shadow and flame / critical mass duo.

#6 Dastey

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:00 PM

There are a few things that needs to be tested regarding the functionality of Kil'Jaeden's Cunning's.
- If you start casting a spell and then move will the cast time be increased, will it stop casting or will it simply remain unchanged?

If it simply just continues with the normal cast speed I would say this talent is a pretty good one since even on hard movement fights or periods of fights (Think Ragnaros HC 2nd and 3rd phase) you will most likely be able to stand still for 0,2 sec once in a while to start a cast hence the talent will be extraordinary.

Archimonde's Vengeance I see being usefull on some fights, obviously it needs to be tested how it functions with spells as Soul Link cause those 2 might counter each other quite a bit. However say on a fight like Ultraxion in the upcoming patch where he in the end will do a crazy high amount of damage or think at the end of Beth'Tilac I can really see this talent doing some insane DPE.

The only talent im currently worried about is the Soul Link. It currently states that damage and HEALING will be shared with the demon. This worries me a bit because its not always so optimal to share healing with your demon since sometimes you need to be healed up fast in order to not die and then if 20 % of your healing is shared with demon this could be a problem. But I guess we will have to wait and see how this works out before we can come to any conclusions.

All in all I like the talent trees because it gives you options depending on fight, Last tier we have good spell for AoE/cleave, good spell for fights where a lot of damage is taken and a good talent for when heavy movement is needed. So I really think Blizzard has been doing a great job with theese talents.

#7 ZiaSK

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:38 PM

I like the synergy between Kiljaeden's Cunning and Harvest of Life for an interesting on-the-move AoE possibility. Assuming we can still start with Soulburn-SoCs if still available, this will allow Affliction at least to be able to move into place for a Shadowflame while spamming Harvest of Life, depending on its damage of course. Not to mention battleground tanking.

I hope it doesn't conflict with Demonology's on-the-move Hellfire, making the ticks longer.

I don't really understand the benefit of Enhanced Channeling: "Re-casting before it ends extends the duration by 3 sec, up to 5 times."

#8 molson

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:15 PM

Two warlock related items of note from the Blizzard Q&A:

Activating demon form will still be controllable, rather than automatic at 100% demonic fury

Q: At Blizzcon you said that demolocks will create demonic fury and turn into a demon when it is maxed out. will this be automatically or will we be able to choose when we use our full demonic fury?
A: You have control over when you transform. The amount of Demonic Fury you have determines the duration of the Metamorphosis.


Channeled spells ticks will update dynamically after moving, no word on normal cast time spells

Q: How does the new warlock talent that allows you to move while casting, but doubles cast time affect channeled spells?
A: Channeled spells take twice as long to tick after you have started moving with that talent.



#9 netsach

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 07:33 PM

> no word on normal cast time spells

Considering how the game works now, the cast time couldn't be slowed. I'm basing this assumption on the fact that currently, if you get a curse of tongues after starting to cast a shadowbolt, the cast time remains unchanged until the next cast.

Based on the same assumption, i think that channels spells would have the tick time adjusted from ticks to ticks. That's to say that if you're not moving when it ticks, and you just move between ticks, i'd say the tick times wouldn't change in the end.

Both of these would enable to "abuse" the slowcast/slowtick disadvantage. But these are only assumptions, of course...

#10 WilyEWarlock

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 07:57 PM

I don't really understand the benefit of Enhanced Channeling: "Re-casting before it ends extends the duration by 3 sec, up to 5 times."


Rather than having to renew the spell every 3 seconds, you can keyboard mash it 5 times in a row, and end up with a 15 sec duration channel.

#11 Xayide

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 08:19 PM

Rather than having to renew the spell every 3 seconds, you can keyboard mash it 5 times in a row, and end up with a 15 sec duration channel.


That also leads to think there won't be clipping problems anymore. One could speculate a similar treatment would be applied to all channeled spells, resolving the Shadow Priest's Mind Flay problem for example.
You don't have to mash the button 5 times, but you could press it once as it's about to end the channel so it behaves similarly to how DoT refreshes work now.

#12 zinnin

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 02:00 AM

That also leads to think there won't be clipping problems anymore. One could speculate a similar treatment would be applied to all channeled spells, resolving the Shadow Priest's Mind Flay problem for example.
You don't have to mash the button 5 times, but you could press it once as it's about to end the channel so it behaves similarly to how DoT refreshes work now.


This mechanic is now already in the game to some degree, currently if you refresh any channeled spell before the end it adds the next tick onto the new channel.

Being able to extend the duration to 15s seems kind of pointless to me, although may lead to some interesting LoS mechanics if you turn your channel into 15s long and then still are able to move while casting and then keep channeling out of LoS.

#13 WilyEWarlock

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 02:33 AM

This mechanic is now already in the game to some degree, currently if you refresh any channeled spell before the end it adds the next tick onto the new channel.

Being able to extend the duration to 15s seems kind of pointless to me, although may lead to some interesting LoS mechanics if you turn your channel into 15s long and then still are able to move while casting and then keep channeling out of LoS.


The idea seems to be a matter of convenience, not having to micromanage ticks overlapping with a refresh on a 3 second interval.

#14 vileguy

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:35 AM

I like the synergy between Kiljaeden's Cunning and Harvest of Life for an interesting on-the-move AoE possibility. Assuming we can still start with Soulburn-SoCs if still available, this will allow Affliction at least to be able to move into place for a Shadowflame while spamming Harvest of Life, depending on its damage of course. Not to mention battleground tanking.

I hope it doesn't conflict with Demonology's on-the-move Hellfire, making the ticks longer.


Hellfire while moving comes from a talent which won't exist. Likely, hellfire won't be castable while moving without this talent, or else it will be castable while moving for everyone, unless they make it a spec feature, which isn't likely.

#15 Zakalwe

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:50 AM

Hellfire while moving comes from a talent which won't exist. Likely, hellfire won't be castable while moving without this talent, or else it will be castable while moving for everyone, unless they make it a spec feature, which isn't likely.

What in the world are you basing this on? It's certainly a central feature of demonology now, why is it unlikely for them to continue that?

#16 Medastase

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:07 AM

Hellfire while moving comes from a talent which won't exist. Likely, hellfire won't be castable while moving without this talent, or else it will be castable while moving for everyone, unless they make it a spec feature, which isn't likely.


I think you forget that prior to set your new talents you will have to choose a spec (affli/destro/demono) that will provide you a set of spell and abilities (a pre set template in other worlds) but yes for a given spec the same for all.

And it is the same for metamorph, hand of guldan for instance, you will not be able to use it in afflication or destro ^^
(Oh it could ba a good idea anyway to let affli to transform ^^)

#17 krilz

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:45 PM

My biggest question at the moment is how Soulburn will work in MoP now that shards is a resource only for Affliction. Will they get completely rid of it for all specs and build something new for Affliction to use in their rotation or... I really don't know. I haven't found any information on the matter so if anyone can enlighten me, be my guest.

Also:

Tier 2 is the crowd control tier. While it's sad to see DC become a non-baseline spell, one can easily see how this tier will be adapted to the encounter: No cc possible means DC for the selfheal, stunable adds make Shadowfury interesting, Howl of Terror will probably be a rare choice for PvE.

Where did you find the information of Death Coil becoming non-baseline? In any footage I've seen from Blizzcon, this wasn't mentioned. While it hasn't been specifically stated at Blizzon, my assumption would be that Death Coil still remains but Mortal Coil will be replacing it, if you decide to pick the talent.

#18 Hidden

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:43 AM

Where did you find the information of Death Coil becoming non-baseline? In any footage I've seen from Blizzcon, this wasn't mentioned. While it hasn't been specifically stated at Blizzon, my assumption would be that Death Coil still remains but Mortal Coil will be replacing it, if you decide to pick the talent.


A quote from the official QA makes me think DC is indeed being removed as a baseline spell for MoP:

Q: Is drain life ,death coil and soul harvest being removed since there are similar talents in it's place?
A: Harvest of Life upgrades Drain Life (Drain Life turns into Harvest, which is a mechanic we use for several spells such as Strangulate -> Asphyxiate and HoJ -> Fist of Justice). Soul Harvest is being removed, but shards passively regen outside of combat or can Drain Soul in combat to replace them. Mortal Coil is the new Death Coil.


Personally I find it makes sense to remove some baseline abilities and make players choose between them because it makes the choices more meaningful as well. The choice "What clutch CC do I want?" is much more interesting than "What's my 4th situational CC going to be?". Not to mention action bars would be way too clustered if all the new abilities were actual additional abilities to the current ones.

In the end you've got to keep in mind that it'll be fairly easy to swap between your talent choices in MoP, so you won't really lose anything, you'll just have to make a choice what you want before every fight.

#19 Xayide

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:31 PM

My biggest question at the moment is how Soulburn will work in MoP now that shards is a resource only for Affliction. Will they get completely rid of it for all specs and build something new for Affliction to use in their rotation or... I really don't know. I haven't found any information on the matter so if anyone can enlighten me, be my guest.

Unfortunately this hasn't been properly clarified by any official source yet. I think the most information we have about it is in the quoted Q&A above.

#20 WilyEWarlock

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:47 PM

A quote from the official QA makes me think DC is indeed being removed as a baseline spell for MoP:

Personally I find it makes sense to remove some baseline abilities and make players choose between them because it makes the choices more meaningful as well. The choice "What clutch CC do I want?" is much more interesting than "What's my 4th situational CC going to be?". Not to mention action bars would be way too clustered if all the new abilities were actual additional abilities to the current ones.

In the end you've got to keep in mind that it'll be fairly easy to swap between your talent choices in MoP, so you won't really lose anything, you'll just have to make a choice what you want before every fight.


The only reason this is palatable comes from Warlocks not being the only ones forced to make such choices. At face value, we are losing abilities. Having 4 situational CC's may seem absurd in a progression context, but in PvP, it's bread-n-butter to have 3 or 4 CC's as a lock. Looking around, I've seen that CC in general is being trimmed from the 5.0 talent trees. If the survivability and utility within the talent tree, as well as those eventually to be found within the 5.0 core and spec abilities, can match or exceed what we are losing from mass situational CC, then I can live with it. Particularly when it means that Mages may even have harder choices than Warlocks for a change.




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