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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#281 ultrajustin

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

Doomguard updates dynamically, also it does not seem to cast more than a fixed number of attacks despite haste or bloodlust (see last page). Thus it's probably best to cast it under 20%.

#282 Mintskoal

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

I have problems figuring out what the best opener is as an affliction warlock.
Lets says you have a full tank and spank fight where hero is popped at the start of the fight.

My hypotheses is that I want to maximize the amount oh MG time during haunt with as strongly buffed DOTs as possible.

And I know that the best thing is to use Soul Burn 20 seconds before pull and SS at T=0. But that is usually to big of a hassle to be feasible for me in most cases.

And that would give me something like.
1. T-2 PrePot
2. T-1 Precast doomguard (to not waste GCD)
3. T SB-SS
4. CoE
5. MG (To get all procs up ASAP)
6. pop DS
7. Reapply all dots when all procs and buffs are up

8. Haunt + MG, reapply haunt when needed.
9. Reapply all dots when the first strong proc is about to fall of
10. Haunt + MG
11. Let DOTs tick their last tick before reapplying. Except for agony.

What im not doing here is precasting haunt. It seems like a wasted haunt to me, because I don't have strong dots up.
What is the best way to reapply dots at (6.) and (9.) Should I felflame + agony. Hardcast or SB+SS?
Also is it maybe a mistake to SS-SB at 3. Maybe it is better to hardcast them and not waste any shards before procs are up.

Or my this hypotheses wrong and should I go with the standard haunt precast rotation?



Seems like you're wasting some time with this opening. What is the purpose of saving DS until after you apply your dots for the first time?
Personally, I pop DS+Prepot+Racials, Haunt, SB-SS to start the fight, then SB-SS again once procs are up. No point in holding onto shards that you may regenerate anyway (especially with a DS'd/bloodlusted Corruption) - the idea of "wasting" shards is only relevant when you're about to repop your CDs/pot, or if you're about to execute.

Just for clarity, letting DOTs tick their last tick is something you track on your empowered DOTs, or all the time? If it is the latter, there is no real need to do so since the dps loss of reapplying a dot early is minimal - especially when running slightly below hit cap. And this does not mean you're letting them drop off, right? Because that will destroy your DPS.

Before a pull in my guild, I constantly have the SB buff precasted; sometimes it doesn't work out perfectly, but for the most part I can begin a fight with 4 shards and an instant DOT application. It helps if you are in a guild with good rhythm and consistent time between pulls.

#283 VoidStar

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

Just for clarity, letting DOTs tick their last tick is something you track on your empowered DOTs, or all the time? If it is the latter, there is no real need to do so since the dps loss of reapplying a dot early is minimal - especially when running slightly below hit cap. And this does not mean you're letting them drop off, right? Because that will destroy your DPS.


The only reason you're likely to choose to have a DoT tick its last tick (and yes: that obviously means that it will drop off) is when it was cast with a higher DPS set of buffs than you currently have. If you currently have a better set of buffs (or the same set), then it's clearly better to re-apply during the Pandemic window than to allow it to fall off.

You suggest that the DPS loss of overwriting a high power DoT with a lower power one for a few ticks in such a situation is "minimal", but if it was easy to avoid then it would still be worth it, it certainly wouldn't "destroy" your DPS. The problem is that it isn't easy.

To make the choice correctly you have to keep track of the buffs you were under when you cast the DoT, what ones you have now, and the opportunity cost of re-applying the DoT at any given point during it's duration (compared to doing something else.)

Inkube was suggesting using a rule of thumb that at the beginning of the fight you can assume that allowing the DoTs to tick to completion is a DPS gain because they get cast with a very good set of buffs (and it's easy to do.) Trying to keep track of such things later on during the fight will probably distract you enough (or you'll make the wrong choices enough) that it would be a DPS loss.

#284 Mintskoal

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

You suggest that the DPS loss of overwriting a high power DoT with a lower power one for a few ticks in such a situation is "minimal", but if it was easy to avoid then it would still be worth it, it certainly wouldn't "destroy" your DPS. The problem is that it isn't easy.
...
Trying to keep track of such things later on during the fight will probably distract you enough (or you'll make the wrong choices enough) that it would be a DPS loss.


My point is that I wouldn't advise anyone to get in the habit of letting DoTs drop off. For the first set, yes, that will increase your DPS and is easy to track. However, as you point out, keeping track of this throughout a fight will most likely lead to a DPS loss if you're unable to execute it with relative perfection.

#285 Gorbsyo

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

For our Lei Shi heroic progress I'm playing demonology. The spec is great for high dmg during get away and demon leap mobility.

However.. during add phase, the wild imps are sometimes all over the place, breaking other players cc. Is there any way to avoid this?


Side note info, I'm using the wild imp glyph which I pop along with other cds for get away.

#286 Yazwho

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

I've been playing with Destro in the last couple of days, for whatever reason there doesn't appear to be a lot of information on the internet about this spec, which is odd as overall it seems now to be comparable to affliction in HC raids. (Or at least Raidbots leads me to believe this is the case!)

Obviously the big hitter for Destro is the Chaos Bolt, so it would seem logical that we'd want to be casting it as much as possible. Obviously to do this we need burning embers, so looking at the spells that generate embers it seems that we're missing out what appears to be the biggest generator in Rain of Fire. RoF has a 25% change to generate 10% of an ember per tick of the 8 ticks, so on average will generate 2 per cast.

So I tried putting it in the normal Destro rotation as a filler ahead of Incin which would only generate 1+crit 10ths per cast. Of course the downsides, ignoring boss movement, are the increased mana cost thus more downtime plus that RoF does less damage than Incin.

Using SimulationCraft 510-9, on a Patchwerk fight there really doesn't appear to be much in it, however we don't get these any more, using a light movement fight with 'Warlock_Destruction_T14H' gear we get 113.8k dps vs 110.2k, a 3.2% increase. On heavy movement its 74.1k vs 67.8k, or 9%!

I'd imagine dps would only go up if there was another add to hit, say when people get MCd during the Vizier encounter, where you'd not use a full AoE rotation.

Obviously there could be ways to negate this difference, with talents maybe, so I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts on using RoF on a single target encounter?

#287 krno

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

I dont think that RoF would be useful anymore due to Kil'jaeden's Cunning removes most of the penalty movement brought with it. Another point is, you normally want to use your Chaos Bolt only when Dark Souls is up, ofcourse every other Chaos Bolt cast, i.e. when near to the Burning Ember cap, will result in a DPS increase.
I could imagine weaving RoF into the rotation for more Burning Embers will be useful if there are a lot of burning phases within a short duration.

#288 Yazwho

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

The idea is to maximise the number of chaos bolts your casting between dark soul, as well as shadowburns in the execute phase, simulcraft sees ~3 extra CBs and .6 or so shadowburns for a 450s fight.

Switching the talent in the sim, it changes to 116.2k vs 115.7k so only .4% better for both light and heavy movement. (Which is actually interesting in itself!)

Although while moving because HoF is now instant you can cast it and do a similar amount of damage to Incin but without triggering the movement slowdown debuff.

Anyway, was just wondering if anyone had looked at it. One thing I've not done in all this is recalc the weights for the extra cast of HoF and apply that to the same gear. Maybe that gives it more edge?

#289 Yazwho

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:48 PM

Apologies for the spam.

Everything sim I've run points to a tiny like .5% dps increase by using RoF on a single target.

However on two targets RoF should be kept up as it seems to yield a 15% increase. (Which is unsurprising given RoF hits one target for the equiv of a Incin, and you'd get more embers from hitting two.)

So at the very least I'd suggest adding the following to the simcraft action list after Havoc:
actions+=/rain_of_fire,if=!ticking&!in_flight&active_enemies>1

I'd also suggest any guides should also mention casting it when there will be any adds where an aoe rotation isn't usable -- short lifespan, on MC'd players, etc -- or when moving as it doesn't give you the Kil'jaeden's Cunning movement debuff.

#290 Karsteck

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:31 PM

So, am I the only lock that only just now found out that shadowflame benefits from the meta dmg buff if you pop into meta while hand of gul'dan is in flight? I'm glad I often was doing that anyway, on the 2nd HoG of a spaced-out pair to get a 2-stack ticking, without sitting on 2 HoG charges while I wanted to be in meta.

Are there any guides or repositories of tricks / class mechanics that anyone's keeping updated, with tricks like that? I don't know what else I'm missing for demo or aff. Mostly I've just been looking at the simcraft action lists to see what I'm supposed to do, but that doesn't even try to save up HoG charges to HoG, filler, filler, HoG for a 2-stack of shadowflame, except when it doesn't cast HoG for other reasons (e.g. fury dump burn phase).

#291 Xemnosyst

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

I assumed I would easily find an answer to this, but I was unable. Maybe my search-fu is getting weak. I'm trying to figure out exactly when I can refresh a DoT without wasting a tick. In case the answer is not actually well known, I'll include here the results of some testing I did while trying to answer it for myself.

I did some tests on a target dummy using an addon to spit out the duration on corruption before & after refreshing it. Keep in mind that these times are on the client side, so small fluctuations in the numbers are expected.
Haste  Time Remaining  Ticks Remaining
       Before  After   Before  After    Added

0.0%   5.515   23.513  2.757   11.775   9
0.0%   6.644   26.671  3.322   13.335   10!!
0.0%   8.909   26.892  4.454   13.446   9
0.0%   8.991   25.032  4.496   12.516   8
0.0%   9.720   25.746  4.860   12.873   8

4.8%   4.382   21.567  2.296   11.301   9
4.8%   7.672   24.879  4.020   13.037   9
4.8%   8.076   25.220  4.232   13.216   9
4.8%   8.159   25.375  4.275   13.297   9
4.8%   8.250   23.560  4.323   12.346   8
4.8%   8.443   23.728  4.424   12.434   8
4.8%   8.457   23.675  4.432   12.406   8
So, with 0% haste, it looks like the magic time is near 8.9 seconds, with 4.5 ticks remaining. At 4.8% haste, it looks like the magic time is more like 8.2 seconds, with 4.3 ticks remaining. I cannot make sense of that. I also have no idea how or why I got an extra tick on that second line. It happened one other time that I did not record.

#292 Manegok

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

Ok, so I have a problem with my Warlock. When I simulate my character with Simulation Craft it shows that I should be able to do 74k dps, but I'm barely doing 65k. My spec is affli, and I think my rotation is good. It goes like:
- Cast Doomguard
- Dark Soul
- Soulburn + Soulswap
- Haunt
- Malefic Grasp
- Reapply DoTs that are almost finished
- Malefic Grasp
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's because I'm not good ebough as Affli? Or maybe my rotation is bad?

@Edit:
I've just noticed, that SimulationCraft was simming with player on "Elite" skill level, but after changing to "Average" it showed 69k dps, so I still should be pulling out more.

#293 Littlebroe

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

After reading through this thread, I am still unsure exactly how I should be playing my lock correctly. This is a question discussing the mechanics of maximizing your damage with the use of procs.

Lets start with terminology. Refresh vs. Extend. Refresh, for the purposes of this post, means to re apply your dots either manually(clicking the individual spells) or using Soulburn and then Soulswap to put on your US, corr, and agony instantly. Both these methods, as far as I can understand, for MoP, recalculate your haste, int, and mast values at the time of cast(end) and will continue ticking with those values until they either fall off or you Refresh again.

Extend however, applies to Fel Flame I believe, where it will extend the time your UA and Corr have by 6 seconds each. This extension does not affect the SP/int/haste/mast values, only takes the values you have when you either initially put them on or refreshed them, and extends that by 6 seconds(Up to max value of 150 percent of the dots original dot time).

If this is correct, could you not just wait until you have 3 or 4 lucky procs from things like your weapon buff, some trinqs and your Dark Soul, then never "refresh" again, just extend with fel flame? If you never have to "refresh" that would save you shards you would usually be spending on SB then SS to catch a random proc and use them for haunts, giving you a much better up time?

To recap, can anyone tell me why I should not wait for 3-4 procs at once (which happens about 92 percent of the time within the first 4 seconds of every fight) then cast agony again (bumping it up to 32ish seconds before it falls off) and just keep up UA and Corr the rest of the fight with FF which will "extend" not "refresh" the original damage calculations, which have most my procs still on it from the initial pull.

#294 Zakalwe

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:37 AM

Extend however, applies to Fel Flame I believe, where it will extend the time your UA and Corr have by 6 seconds each. This extension does not affect the SP/int/haste/mast values, only takes the values you have when you either initially put them on or refreshed them.

This is wrong - extension via fel flame recalculates everything as well.

#295 Littlebroe

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:10 AM

Thank you Zak for your response.

Another question I have is about refreshing only UA and Corr. If you put the most powerful version of all 3 dots to their max, and then spam MG, the UA and Corr will run out well before Agony. Should I manually refresh UA and Corr when a single proc happens? That will leave agony still running with the most/more powerful buffs right?

So It should go like this.

apply All three with procs A, B, C. (assuming all three are int buffs and stack)
spam MG
UA and Corr run out, manually apply them
B proc, manual UA and Corr.
C proc, does not overlap with B, leave alone, just keep spamming MG
A proc, overlaps with C, SS and SS to reapply all dots because Agony is about to run out.




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