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Mists of Pandaria: All Specs


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#21 Nfariessence

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:49 AM

Particularly when it means that Mages may even have harder choices than Warlocks for a change.


Ha. That'll be easy for mages. Get the Double Polymorph talent and poly the healer for 8 seconds and one dps for 4 seconds, while everyone is focus firing on the 3rd member.

#22 ZiaSK

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 03:54 PM

I'm interested in how this effect will play out:

  • Malefic Grasp replaces Shadow Bolt for Affliction. It is a channeled nuke which increases the damage of your DoTs on the target by increasing their tick rate by 100%.

I'm assuming it won't also reduce the duration of our dots (to match the total number of ticks they're supposed to have). This effect seems so powerful, that regardless of its damage would it replace Drain Soul under 25% as well? Drain Soul has the advantage of refreshing UA and a long cast time for ease of use. I wonder if it works on CoD, or if we'd finally have a reason to use CoA. Does it increase the tick rate by the same amount if we use it under Kiljaeden's Cunning? Does the splash damage from Illidan's Guile also have the same effect?

What an interesting spell.

#23 Cybsled

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:42 AM

It's going to be difficult to judge the power of the new talents (and Warlocks in turn) until Blizzard fully reveals what spells we get for choosing our respective spec. I believe they already revealed at Blizzcon that affliction probably won't have immolate anymore, so it stands to reason destro might lose shadow related stuff like Bane of Doom or corruption. The shadowbolt transformation also brings the possibility of one of our core base spells just being a stand-in until it transforms into something else that is tailored for your spec. Lastly, we still don't know which existing talents (not already revealed in the new talents) are going to survive the cut and be part of your chosen spec.

#24 rijn dael

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:42 AM

Malefic Grasp replaces Shadow Bolt for Affliction. It is a channeled nuke which increases the damage of your DoTs on the target by increasing their tick rate by 100%.

I either see this as either-
Our dot dps is relatively lowered so that malefic grasp as a filler replaces shadowbolt, and damage remains fairly constant.
Malefic grasp damage is much lower than shadowbolt was, so that the dot % of our dps goes up. (Yes malefic will be a 'dot' too, not the point).

If the first is true, our damage to multiple targets will take a relative drop.
If the latter, our burst would take a hit, since barrng soul swap cd, we can't get dots up straight up - while that channel will be balanced around having dots present to an extent. Maybe we will gain a mindspike style ability? (hope).

#25 Envý

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:29 AM

I don't think Malefic Grasp will do any damage on his own at all. DoTs ticking twice as fast will be the damage source of the "nuke".

It would be interessting what we get to handle situations were dots aren't viable.

#26 zinnin

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 11:59 AM

I don't think Malefic Grasp will do any damage on his own at all. DoTs ticking twice as fast will be the damage source of the "nuke".

It would be interessting what we get to handle situations were dots aren't viable.


It will have to damage by itself or Kil'jaeden's Cunning will be too good for Affliction, that said I do believe the point of Malefic Grap is to basically once and for all kill how overpowered multidotting is compared to other single target classes. However I think that this is basically good news as it seems Affliction has never been allowed to be a top top single target spec because of the power of multidotting.

Also if the spec basically comes down to 3 dots and Malefic grasp, I can't see any scenario where DoTs aren't viable. If there is something that needs to be burned down soul swap \ Malefic grasp is doing full dps in 2 GCD's, basically this isn't really anything we can speculate on till we get more information what is included in the Affliction spec.

What im really curious about is if Haunt will still remain in the rotation and if the debuff will stay the same.

EDIT: I also don't think Malefic Grasp would be included in the splash damage talent if it did no damage.

#27 Cybsled

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:26 PM

Per recent Blizzard post

As part of the buff consolidation plan, Improved Soul Fire is no longer a part of the 5.0 Destruction Warlock. The damage gained from the buff has been rolled into the Infernal Ember mechanic.

We’re trying to improve the quality of life for this spec, and removing Improved Soul Fire seemed like a good place to start.



#28 Kuku

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 05:26 PM

I don't think Malefic Grasp will do any damage on his own at all. DoTs ticking twice as fast will be the damage source of the "nuke".

It would be interessting what we get to handle situations were dots aren't viable.


I don't know of any other "nuke" spell in the game that does not have a damage component.

#29 Nehrak

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 03:49 AM

From the Q&A and a blue post on the Warlock forum:

You know, we just didn’t get a chance to discuss Demonology’s changes in depth at BlizzCon. Here are some tidbits that we've picked up about Demonic Fury and Demonology:

• Shadow Bolt, Corruption damage, Pet Abilities and Drain Life will generate Demonic Fury.
• While in Metamorphosis, abilities will consume Demonic Fury.
• There may be some abilities which consume Demonic Fury outside of Metamorphosis.

We aren’t ready to get into details, but Demonology will have some new spells. Here's one example:

• Wild Imps [PH]: Summons a group of wild imps. Each time a wild imp attacks, the Warlock receives Demonic Fury.



All Warlocks get Shadow Bolt at level 1. Then Shadow Bolt will transform around level 40 based on your spec.

Affliction: Malefic Grasp
Demonology: (in Meta) Demonic Slash
Destruction: Incinerate

Of particular interest is that for Demonology, Shadow Bolt transforms into a Meta-only ability (while you're in Meta?). If it's a primary nuke that we use only while Meta is active, that says quite a bit about how they're pushing demon form for that particular spec. I get the impression, though, that Shadow Bolt - and a slough of other abilities? - will transform on your spell bars when you hit Meta, rather than Demonic Slash being a must-be-in-Meta ability only; that it won't replace Shadow Bolt entirely.

#30 Cybsled

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 03:56 PM

Based on what we've heard, Affliction is pretty much going to be dots only (shadow), destro will be fire only, and demo may be shadow but with a bigger focus on the demon aspect (melee mage?). I'm pretty confident that shadow bolt will be the bread&butter nuke for demo locks, meta version non-withstanding.

For anyone who has played Age of Conan, I get the general feeling from what they have been revealing (heavy focus on the meta transformed lock) that they might try to make Demo locks more like the Herald of Xotli. For those unfamiliar, it was a caster class that had a transformation ability (old god demon thing) which allowed him to dish out powerful close range/melee DPS and increased his survivability, not to mention enhancing certain abilities. Meta as it currently stands is just a fancy +DPS buff /w some situational, but not terribly useful, abilities. Demo locks have always been the sort of odd man out in terms of clearly defined purpose and role in the end game (ignoring the group buff they could provide). Re-envisioning their role as a caster that can mix it up in melee range could be just what it needs to stand out. Blizzard has already shown they will be willing to do that with monk healers, so it's not a stretch to think they aren't above doing that with the demo lock spec.

#31 VoidStar

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:07 PM

If the thread will permit some idle pondering then I think that pushing demo towards near-melee is both a good and likely course of action from what we've seen so far.

Demo locks are already significantly advantaged by being in near-melee range (or really disadvantaged by being at range as we seem balanced including our near-melee range abilities) so pushing the spec more in that direction seems possible, and if Shadow Bolt really does change into a near-melee range ability in Meta (as the description implies) then it will basically be a necessity.

Demo will have to made explicitly "melee range" as far as the game is concerned for this to work though as encounters like Majordomo Staghelm seem to target their "at range" abilities by spec.

With talents such as Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and instant or "cast while moving" abilities a key disadvantage of requiring melee range is reduced.

Lastly, it would be good to say to raid leaders that Demo is supposed to be a melee range spec, as this tends to hold much more weight than "I'll do better damage ig you let me lurk with the melee"!

#32 angaroth

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:14 PM

Demonic Slash could easily be a ranged attack: "Controlling the fel power of the very nether itself you create gashes in space and time and the bodies of any of your enemies foolish enough to stand in the patented pan."

#33 Kashii

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:23 PM

Probably worth noting here the proposed resource changes incoming for Warlocks:

  • Unique resources for each spec.
  • Affliction will continue to use Soul Shards, but with improvements.
  • Demonology will use Demonic Fury. Demonic Fury builds during combat, and when maxed transforms you into Meta / Demon Form. Additional abilities available for Meta. Supposedly, you will be in Meta more often.
  • Destruction will use Infernal Embers. Fire spells build up bonus damage, which is then released through nukes.


I'm curious how these new "resource systems" will play out. To me, at first blush, it seems that what is really going on is adding ramp up time to Demo and Destro specs so that their damage curve is more like affliction. I also wonder if Infernal Embers will be a self-buff or a debuff on the target which will end up like another version of Shadow Embrace.

Hellfire while moving comes from a talent which won't exist. Likely, hellfire won't be castable while moving without this talent, or else it will be castable while moving for everyone, unless they make it a spec feature, which isn't likely.


Like others have said, speculation is difficult at this point because we really don't know what curent talents are going to be baked into basic 5.0 abilities or what might be added simply by selecting Affliction/Demo/Destro. Seems that if making the choice of spec is to be a significant one, then there would have to be a good bit of "if you are Demo then you can Hellfire while moving" sort of thing.

#34 Cybsled

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:40 AM

I'm curious how these new "resource systems" will play out. To me, at first blush, it seems that what is really going on is adding ramp up time to Demo and Destro specs so that their damage curve is more like affliction. I also wonder if Infernal Embers will be a self-buff or a debuff on the target which will end up like another version of Shadow Embrace.


Based on it's description and the talents they are removing (Imp SF), it sounds like it will be a self buff and won't be target dependent.

That's actually one thing I am concerned about. Blizzard stated that they removed Imp SF because Infernal Embers is supposed to be it's stand in, but while Imp SF was a flat DPS increase for a set period of time, Infernal Embers sounds like it will be more streaky. They still haven't revealed what the mechanic for the "release" will be...if it will be something you manually have to input, or if the damage will incrementally be released when you hit certain milestones in your damage/# of nukes cast, or if it will only work on certain spells. They talked about having big conflag hits, so I'm guessing it will either be manually triggered or only certain spells will use the bonus damage (like conflag).

#35 krilz

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:33 AM

Based on it's description and the talents they are removing (Imp SF), it sounds like it will be a self buff and won't be target dependent.

That's actually one thing I am concerned about. Blizzard stated that they removed Imp SF because Infernal Embers is supposed to be it's stand in, but while Imp SF was a flat DPS increase for a set period of time, Infernal Embers sounds like it will be more streaky. They still haven't revealed what the mechanic for the "release" will be...if it will be something you manually have to input, or if the damage will incrementally be released when you hit certain milestones in your damage/# of nukes cast, or if it will only work on certain spells. They talked about having big conflag hits, so I'm guessing it will either be manually triggered or only certain spells will use the bonus damage (like conflag).

Did a quick Google and found an answer from a Q&A from the developers. Infernal Embers will increase the damage of your Conflagrate and Soul Fire and the ability you choose to use will use up all your Infernal Embers.

#36 Cybsled

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:22 PM

Blizzard just made available a MOP talent calculator

Talent Calculator - Game - World of Warcraft!

Of note is that you can also click on the 3 specializations and it gives a listing of what the available spells are.

Notable things:

General class changes: Shadow Ward is now Twilight Ward and it absorbs shadow or holy. Fel Armor has changed, now it just increases armor, stamina, and healing received, but it is now a passive vs. an actual spell. Curse of Enfeeblement combines Curse of Tongues and Curse of Weakness, decreasing physical damage and cast time by 30%. Tool tip says it is less effective on bosses. Nethermancy is a passive at level 50 that increases your int by 5%. New spell at 64 is Unending Resolve: 10% base mana cost, 3min cd, Reduces all dmg by 50% and prevents spell from being interrupted for 12 seconds. Dark Intent has changed, now it is a raidwide buff that increases spell power by 6% for 1 hour. New spell at 88 is Demonic Portal...it literally sounds like it's from the game Portal in that you create 2 portals and people who go in one come out the other. It has 5 charges, but charges regen at 1 charge per 15 seconds. The tooltip mentions it has a 70 yard range. Interesting spell.

Destruction: Bane of Agony, Bane of Doom, and Hellfire have been removed as available spells (they still get corruption, but no seed of corruption). Chaos bolt appears to be GONE. Infernal Embers boosts dmg of soulfire or conflag. Aftermath is now a base passive at 54, biggest change is now it makes it so rain of fire DOES NOT have to be channeled anymore and it stuns all enemies inside it for 2 seconds! It still makes conflag daze as well. Rain of Fire now also does bonus dmg vs. immolated targets. Fire and Brimstone at level 62 is different, now it says your next incinerate, immolate, conflag, or soulfire will hit all targets within 15 yards of your primary target and it notes that it is instant cast /w a 10s cd (I guess we see the use of this spell now, since RoF does bonus dmg vs. immolated targets). Bane of Havoc has been changed, it now lasts 15 seconds so that the next 4 single target spells cast will also hit the bane target, 2m cd. Backlash is now automatically given at 73. Emberstorm is given at 80 and has been changed so that it increases infernal ember benefit by 4% and each point of mastery increases bonus by 0.50%. New spell at 86 Destructive Influence: Each attack by your demon reduces cast time of your next soulfire by 0.1 seconds, stacking up to 40 times..

Demonology: Rain of Fire and all the fire single-target spells except Soulfire have been removed. Bane of Agony removed. Bane of Doom is now demo only. Metamorph is given at level 10. Demonic Fury tooltip indicates it increases your damage by 10%, which is modified by mastery (Shadow bolt, corruption, soul fire, and drain life build it up). Wild Imps at 32, base is 1 imp that casts 5 firebolts (each bolt yields 10 demonic fury), tooltip says # of imps and cost of cast increases based on amount of demonic fury you have built up. Immolation aura is now different, it turns Hellfire into a spell that costs demonic fury vs. mana, does not need to be channeled, and it does not damage you. Demonic Rebirth is a passive at 54 (instant resummon), you have a 20s window to cast and it has a 2m cd. Hand of Guldan is now a base spell. Decimation is a passive at 69, based on the tooltip is essentially a soulfire execute where if you cast a soulfire on a target below 25%, your soulfire is 2 seconds less to cast, but if it is over that amount, your next soulfire has double cast time for 30 seconds. Demonic Freedom at 73, heals demon and removes all CC. Shadow Flame appears to be demo only now. Master Demonologist is passive at 80, boosts dmg by you in meta form, demonic fury benefit, and demon dmg by 1%, each point of mastery increases by 0.1%. Carrion Swam, new passive at 86. If you cast shadowflame in meta form, shadowflame costs fury vs. mana and it knocks enemies away.

Affliction: No hellfire/RoF. No fire spells except soul fire. Unstable Affliction give at 10. Soulburn and drain soul appears to be affliction only now. Drain soul creates 1 shard per 4 seconds and drain soul still acts like an execute, where it's damage is doubled on targets below 25%. Soul burn changes: Health funnel instantly heals + reduces dmg, fear becomes death coil essentially (no healing), seed of corruption places corruption on all damaged targets from the seed explosion, demonic circle is more or less the same. Seed of Corruption is Affliction only (No more seed bombs for the other specs!). Bane of Agony is affliction only. Malefic Grasp at 42, it does dmg + makes your dots tick 100% faster. Nightfall procs now change Malefic grasp vs. shadowbolt (since SB changes into grasp). Improved Fear passive at 69, fear now also slows target by 30% for 5s after fear wears off. Soul swap is still in. Potent Afflictions, passive at 80, all periodic shadow dmg increased by 13%, each mastery point increases bonus by 1.63%.

Talents have changed since Blizzcon as well in some cases, most notably the level 60 tier (based on my memory of the panel).

#37 ruthlessmind

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:29 PM

Spoiler

This spoiler lists spells.
Spoiler

This spoiler shows changes to talents

#38 Dastey

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:51 PM

Made a topic on MMO Champion HERE with the changes (Also check reply #11 for a better visible post)

What is really interesting to me is Soul Fire
- Instant for Demonology, so probably used once every 30 seconds until you hit 25%
- 2 seconds cast time for Destruction but demon attacks reduce it by 0,1 sec stacking 40 times. So we can get it for while on the move instant or the 1 second global cap. But will it be worth it to use over Conflagrate at any point? If not there really isnt any reason to have the pet unless it does more damage than a sacrifice does.
EDIT: Soul Fire could still be 4 seconds assuming it increases as you level, still would require it to hit harder than conflagrate before actually using it


Also things to be tested is definitely the damage component of Malefic Grasp. With nightfall giving 9 seconds 100% tick rate it might be worth to actually cast Drain Soul meanwhile even though it isnt under 25%.

And the new AoE changes for destruction looks amazing.
AoE immolate > Rain of Fire > Single target DPS

#39 Nehrak

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 06:44 PM

Changes I didn't see listed above me:

General
- Fel Armor is passive, not a buff. No more forgetting to put it on anymore.

- Searing Pain is gone. (I bet you didn't notice either until it was pointed out.)



Affliction
- Haunt is gone. Presumably Malefic Grasp is meant to compensate for that, especially its Nightfall effect. One of the first things to test, assuming it stays that way: does a Nightfall'd Malefic Grasp double-dip with a channeled Malefic Grasp? Either I'm blind, or there's no mention of being unable (i.e. - cooldown) to instantly cast Malefic Grasp after using it via Nightfall. Also, how does Empowered Channel affect Malefic Grasp when Nightfall proc? Giant nuke damage plus dot-boost effect? Base nuke damage plus dot-boost effect?

- Bane of Agony lasts for one minute now, ramping up to the maximum damage as usual. It seems to be much more comparable to Bane of Doom, now, especially when Malefic Grasp is factored in. (On the calculator, base Agony damage is 7918 over 60 seconds; Doom is 1911 every 15 sec, or 7644 over 60, plus the chance for the Imp.)



Demonology
- Demonic Leap no longer damages or stuns. It's just a Meta-inducing leap effect, now. (More fuel for the "melee-range focus" that was speculated?)

- Hand of Gul'dan has an area of effect component, both to the damage and the snare effect. I'm also guessing that the snare component to the 6yd aura has three charges upon impact, which it attempts to apply to anyone/-thing within it (dispelling the aura after?). The recharge part of it confuses me, since as worded the aura lasts forever and regains charges. Now that I'm rereading it, the "charges" part is just weird and makes me wonder if they changed it from a pulsing, stacking snare (like how Aura of Foreboding works for the stun part) to baking it in with the damage.


Destruction
- Shadowburn's "5 second kill" effect grants 5 charges of Infernal Embers. That seems like a lot on fights with relatively minor add components where you can go straight to the boss after (e.g. - Cho'gall).

- Conflagrate is no longer based on Immolate; it's closer to Fire Blast now.

- Destruction doesn't have a way to "lure" Infernals and Doomguards now, assuming they keep the "drawn to Agony/Doom'd target" mechanic in. Bane of Havoc lasts 15 sec and carries a 2 min cooldown. I'm curious if Blizzard will stick on a mechanic where they go after Immolated targets as well (or perhaps give us a Hunter's Mark type ability that will lure both pets and guardians to that target).


General Observations
- Overall, I'm glad they're doing away with one thing that felt weird until now. I'm referring to the fact that everyone had multiple AE abilities. They're making it clear that everyone will bring something different to the AE table, while also having the ability to "double-up" on the AE -- Aff: Soulburning Seed + Seed spam; Destro: Fire and Brimstone + Immolate + Rain of Fire; Demonology being itself -- while also making them somewhat unique in terms of function and form.

- I'm wondering if the spec-only abilities are incomplete for us, though. Browsing through other classes (Shaman) showed a number of passives, including the "spec-reward" ones, that we're at the moment lacking. I mean Demonic Knowledge, Shadow Mastery, Cataclysm, ones like that. It also seems odd they would remove abilities like Siphon Life from Affliction as well, unless it's a blatant move to reduce Affliction self-healing outside of using Drain Life/Harvest of Life. It could be that the number of non-passive abilities (e.g. - Demo) is meant to make up for it.

- Corruption still feels odd being in Destruction's spell list. I'm hoping that they'll have Immolate replace it (at level 10?), even though it currently doesn't say so on the tooltip. It's an RP/flavor reason, for the most part. It would also emphasize that you're supposed to be focusing on Incinerate, Soul Fire, and Conflagrate, rather than making sure all your dots are up and ticking (hi Affliction?). I exaggerate, but I think you guys get the point.

#40 Cybsled

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:15 AM

Blizzard did mention that some of the spells will turn into other spells (shadow bolt turns into incinerate for destro), so it's possible corruption might change into something else.

I was thinking about the destro AE combo (AOE Immolate then Rain of Fire). Aftermath states that it makes it so RoF isn't channeled anymore, which makes it sound like a "fire and forget" spell (pun not intended), so does that mean you can stack another RoF on top of the one you just cast?

In theory, destro warlocks would also have a powerful AE stun combo if they chose Shadowfury as their CC talent. 2 seconds from RoF + 3 seconds from Shadow fury, then potentially you could recast RoF and get another 2 seconds. PVP has diminishing returns, but most NPCs don't, which means you could potentially keep huge clusters of mobs on lockdown for a pretty long time considering damage doesn't currently break our stuns.




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