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[Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD


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#1 Carebare

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:50 AM

Old contents have been moved to this thread: http://elitistjerks....lysm_old_4_1_a/

Hamlet still has some updating/polishing left to do, so please any feedback on the content of the lead post should be PM'd to him directly. Patch is likely to occur on 6/28, but most of the raid-level theoretical discussion has been on 4.2 for quite awhile. It is okay to still discuss raid relevant 4.1 information here until the patch goes live.
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#2 Hamlet

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:20 AM

OP updated for 4.2 and thread rebooted to clean out old content. Some notes on the update:

--Some item links are being wonky as usual right before at patch. They should work correctly after 4.2 goes live on 6/28, but for now I tried to include the correct item name afterwards.
--New haste breakpoint list added to try to stave off constant questions about this.
--Added some info on new t12 trinkets. These will probably be a point of discussion going forward, but I think the general assessment of Shard/Jaws as BIS is pretty likely to hold. The assessment of Eye might change if we get more information on exactly how the proc works.
--With the nerf to 60s ICD, Tailoring doesn't provide much more Int than other professions. Since the random proc isn't great for healing anyway, it's probably slightly worse than other professions now.
--In general the hierarchy of secondary stats is not totally clear yet and will probably be the topic of a lot of discussion. For now I think the 2005 haste point is very attractive and not too hard to reach in raid gear. Beyond that, mastery and even crit give quite solid throughput now, and Spirit's regen bonus is not overly impressive. But we might need some raid experience to see if we can really abandon Spirit that strongly. It's quite possible that we can, given how much of our regen is Int-based, and now that we have our Innervates all to ourselves.

#3 Greentouch

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:06 AM

About Nature's Bounty, I already recommend it as is, after crit gets doubled, this talents worth is also doubling.

The alternatives:
BotG, as has been discussed, is an extremely mediocre talent, unlikely to account for more then 1% healing per point, and pretty much impossible to have a game impacting difference.

Perseverance is only useful if you need it to live. It definitely has saved my life a few times, on progression, however once you learn a fight, and when to use barkskin you shouldn't need it.

Living Seed's Value will also be doubling. It will be a pretty decent use of points if you do a good amount of tank healing, pretty useless for a raid healer though.

Furor = useless if you're ending fights with mana to spare. First regen talent to drop, but well worth pts if you are using all your mana.

Genesis is great if you don't need mana.

The thing about Nature's Bounty is its worth is higher then its meter healing would indicate, because it IS game impacting, unlike, say BotG. It makes Regrowth worthwhile for use to burn OoC's and a spot heal if needed, whereas without it, we have no 1.5 second "flash heal" in our toolbox worth using. And if its worth using now, as I would argue, its definitely worth using after 4.2 doubles crits worth.
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#4 lissanna

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:25 PM

I've also been in favor of increasing regrowth use to refresh Lifebloom as a Raid/AOE healer to be able to get the new Harmony mastery proc (since it's a short cast that won't take away too much from your raid healing). So, if you are using Regrowth once every ~15 to 20 seconds for that purpose (with swiftmend automatically refreshing every other Harmony buff), then Nature's Bounty may be worth picking up. I usually put at least 2 points in Nature's Bounty. We're going to have to see how it really works out in practice, but I'm anticipating Regrowth increasing in usefulness (but still being reliant of Nature's Bounty to make it a worthwhile spell).

#5 Sylvre

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 04:27 PM

I find that Regrowth is worth using even without an OoC proc to do spot healing. For situations where damage is constant Rejuv is far and away the better spell but if damage is just an one-off and minor (~20k), Rejuv is likely to cause mostly overheal (60-70%+). In this case, Regrowth would be competitive in terms of HPM, moreso after the crit buff. This is assuming you have mana to spare obviously.

#6 Môurn

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 04:51 PM

the problem is, regrowth also triggers nature's grace and you don't always want to trigger it at that time. if you know there is a big burst of damage coming soon, you want to save nature's grace to maximize wild growth and rejuv (and possibly tranq) then.

About Nature's Bounty, I already recommend it as is, after crit gets doubled, this talents worth is also doubling.

Living Seed's Value will also be doubling. It will be a pretty decent use of points if you do a good amount of tank healing, pretty useless for a raid healer though.

The thing about Nature's Bounty is its worth is higher then its meter healing would indicate, because it IS game impacting, unlike, say BotG. It makes Regrowth worthwhile for use to burn OoC's and a spot heal if needed, whereas without it, we have no 1.5 second "flash heal" in our toolbox worth using. And if its worth using now, as I would argue, its definitely worth using after 4.2 doubles crits worth.


if you are unable/unwilling to spec out of nature's swiftness and nature's cure, it becomes extremely difficult to find the points for maxed nature's bounty and/or living seed. i have only 3 talent points left for both talents if i am only to use 31 points in the tree. i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.

#7 Greentouch

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:10 PM

the problem is, regrowth also triggers nature's grace and you don't always want to trigger it at that time. if you know there is a big burst of damage coming soon, you want to save nature's grace to maximize wild growth and rejuv (and possibly tranq) then.

if you are unable/unwilling to spec out of nature's swiftness and nature's cure, it becomes extremely difficult to find the points for maxed nature's bounty and/or living seed. i have only 3 talent points left for both talents if i am only to use 31 points in the tree. i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.


As to the first, find a good way to track the ICD on NG. It's not like you need to hold it for minutes at a time, you can freely use RG for 45 seconds after you pop NG, and then its doubtful you'll want to hold it for more then 10-30 seconds max anyway. If you keep yourself aware of its ICD its pretty simple to control NG and still get a lot of use from RG.


As to the second, LS is pretty much useless if you mostly raid heal. Now if you do a fair amount of tank healing, its really nice because it salvages some of what would probably be overheal. In which case I'd say to drop the 2 pts you have in genesis or Furor to grab at least 2/3 LS, and you really shouldn't need Nature's Cure for raids as other healers can pick it up at much lower cost.

Genesis is nice for a raid healer, but tanks aren't likely to die because their hots were 4% too weak. Now if they needed a crit flash heal and didn't get one, that could kill them. And 30% of a post 4.2 crit as a seed will be much more significant for a tank healer then 4% to hots.

So in summary, in my opinion NB is a must have for all rdruids in 4.2. LS is a must have for tank healers only.
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#8 Môurn

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:37 PM

i track the icd of nature's grace with forte xcorcist (there was a fix for it linked somewhere in the old thread). it's fine to alternate then with shard of woe. i was speaking more in hypothetical terms. you don't always want to use regrowth when the situation arises, because it may have repercussions on your planning (especially since we tend to be less than stellar on reactive burst healing, so there is a good argument for planning beforehand). i get what you are saying though.

as to living seed, i think it may be quite a bit more attractive when used with regrowth to maintain lifebloom on the tank and keep the mastery bonus up. i play only 25 man raids and pretty much always raid heal (or heal what is needed), but i could see a 10% living seed being greater than 2% magic damage reduction even for a raid healer.

as to maxing out nature's bounty, what about the idea of every healer being able to dispell. i understand our talent tree being so very bloated, but isn't it worthwhile to have the option of being able to dispell magic. this is again very hypothetical, but perhaps you come to a situation where it is essential for you to dispell because 1-2 of the other healers are dead or lack the mana or whatever.
this is me basically thinking aloud and appreciating your input. i'm a little undecided on my exact spec for firelands.

#9 lissanna

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:13 PM

i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.


This is what I end up with in my talent spec. It seems to work out okay for me. Then again, I have a strange raiding situation where we sometimes run with as many as 3 resto druids in our 25-man raid, and I still have to be able to heal as the only resto druid on 10-man nights (ie. I have to be able to both raid-heal for 25's and tank heal for 10's), so I tend to do something less specialized to be able to cover all my bases. :) I end up needing to keep Nature's Cure, since we do run so druid-heavy in our 25's, and I sometimes have to be able to dispel in 10's as well.

#10 Dulkinis

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:49 AM

Hello, i have some doubts about moonglow talent in 4.2.
I mean is it still worth so much after getting Shard of Woe and Jaws of Defeat ?
Maybe in 25 man content its better to go with Genesis 3/3 and Furor 2/3 or at least Genesis 3/3 and Moonlow 2/3 and not the opposite?
And i cant find any info about 4T12 bonus does it able to trigger second efflorescence when used by swiftmend on second target?

#11 santrilla

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:20 AM

as to maxing out nature's bounty, what about the idea of every healer being able to dispell. i understand our talent tree being so very bloated, but isn't it worthwhile to have the option of being able to dispell magic. this is again very hypothetical, but perhaps you come to a situation where it is essential for you to dispell because 1-2 of the other healers are dead or lack the mana or whatever.
this is me basically thinking aloud and appreciating your input. i'm a little undecided on my exact spec for firelands.


I think the key point here is that it depends on your healing team, and on particular fights. I used to have Nature's Cure, but one or two patches ago I removed it in favour of Nature's Bounty and it hasn't been a problem - I asked our other two healers (priest and pally) and they were fine to handle the dispels themselves. In other healing set-ups or maybe in 25s your mileage may vary.

I'm also expecting that when we get to Sinestra it'll be a lot more important for me to take the talent, but I'll cross that dragon when we come to it. As to Firelands... well, I guess we can only wait and see.

I see your point about having dispel in case the other healers die, but in about 90% of cases, if one of the other healers dies in my team, it's pretty much over anyway - extra dispellers or no. :)

#12 Hamlet

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 06:33 PM

Hello, i have some doubts about moonglow talent in 4.2.
I mean is it still worth so much after getting Shard of Woe and Jaws of Defeat ?
Maybe in 25 man content its better to go with Genesis 3/3 and Furor 2/3 or at least Genesis 3/3 and Moonlow 2/3 and not the opposite?
And i cant find any info about 4T12 bonus does it able to trigger second efflorescence when used by swiftmend on second target?


Moonglow is still good even if you have both trinkets. If things some how turn out so that our mana situation is really in good shape, you might consider dropping it to free up more points for mediocre throughput talents like NB, but that seems unlikely as it gives quite a lot of mana.

The 4T12 doesn't give an extra Efflorescence. I should probably add that to the OP since people will ask about it a lot.

-------

To talk about stats for a moment, something I was thinking about while going over gear:

Mastery and crit are both decent throughput, with mastery being a bit better numerically (and having the other advantage of being more consistent). Also, that assumes 100% Harmony uptime, so in practice they're even slightly closer.

Point being, if you favor mastery over Spirit, logically you're very likely to favor crit over Spirit too. To be honest I won't be surprised if, when everything settles out, Spirit becomes the most common dump stat for top Druids. Mana is going to be a lot nicer this tier than in the previous tier:
--Most of our regen is Int-based (Replenishment, Revitalize, 2T12, and Innervate). These things all add up to quite a bit more than our Spirit regen. And we're about to jump up a whole tier of Int.
--Our Innervates will be only for ourselves.
--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.
--The only two trinkets better than Fiery/Rune are Jaws and Shard, and if you have both of those, you're not going to have mana issues anyway.

#13 copialinex

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 08:11 PM

--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.


Fiery Quintessence doesn't share cooldown with Rune of Zeth, but when you use one, a 30s-cooldown is placed on the other.
(From tests in PTR a week ago, will test again when I'm home)

e: Actually, it's a 25s cooldown
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#14 Hamlet

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 08:22 PM

Good to know. I was thinking about putting something into TC to make it assume trinket activations are synced with Innervate to see how much that helps regen.

#15 Dav1l

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 04:55 AM

--Most of our regen is Int-based (Replenishment, Revitalize, 2T12, and Innervate). These things all add up to quite a bit more than our Spirit regen. And we're about to jump up a whole tier of Int.
--Our Innervates will be only for ourselves.
--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.
--The only two trinkets better than Fiery/Rune are Jaws and Shard, and if you have both of those, you're not going to have mana issues anyway.

- 2T12 is not Int-based.
- I don't understand how it is a buff. We had cross Innervates this tier and basically lose 50% of the value in 4.2. We also lose half of Mana Tide.
- Personally, I'm not going to use weak throughput trinkets and wonder who would.
- Why would anyone prefer spirit or crit passive bonus over passive intellect from Cho'gall trinket? I consider Intellect on use effects on those two very weak, and to be fair compared to NG and SoW they are. If you claim that mana isn't going to be a problem (which I doubt, after seeing some of encounters on heroic mode), then surely you'd want to get a strong throughput trinket like Fall of Mortality instead of playing a game with your Innervate.

I don't know where from people get the 'we won't need mana in Firelands' thing. There are encounters that would require A LOT of raid healing (Beth'tilac, Staghelm and Ragnaros come on mind). I was ending up doing 25-27k hps and still falling behind on healing. There's no way you will be fine on mana, not until you are geared in 391 ilvl or the encounters are nerfed.
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#16 Greentouch

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 06:22 AM

I'm a big fan of passive INT as well, sure you get juicy innervates, but the rest of the time you are missing out on a lot of spellpower.

I'm thinking I'll be using SoW still since it has such a high item budget (almost 2k mp5 plus an extra Nature's Grace is hard to beat) and that Althor's Abacus wanna be trinket. (Sorry MMO is down and I don't know where else has firelands gear at the moment.)

Definitely don't just start dumping regen, but I was expecting the same as Hamlet. Going up a tiers worth of INT will be significant, and that along with the slight buff to mastery, and major buff to Crit, makes Spirit the last stat.

This of course, is assuming we are talking about extra stats adding to current gear, Haste to a breakpoint is the best secondary stat, and worst past, and its the same with spirit, doesn't matter how much mastery or crit you have buffing your Rejuv's if you oom and can't cast any. But if you are past the spirit breakpoint (consistently end the longest/hardest fights with mana to spare) then spirit is garbage. And this will happen with less spirit when we've moved up a tier of INT so be ready to pick up a couple more haste/mastery items, or reforge spirit off stuff instead of mastery like most of us have been doing.

Moonglow and our other regen talents account for a heck of a lot of mana, if you have mana to spare, drop furor, and then drop spirit. Don't drop other regen talents.
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#17 Hamlet

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:56 AM

Those are good points, although like Greentouch said, the result is still probably the same.

It depends on how much you were cross-Innervating Druids. We've been tending to give the majority of our Innervates to Priests all through T11. I think for a lot of people, the new system will result in a good bit more Innervate mana than before.

Eye of Blazing Power really does not look good, unless the proc scales with spellpower. Assuming a 45s ICD, it's like 400 HPS. The Jaws of Defeat proc should be worth around 400 MP5. Even if you're not favoring regen, that's a far better tradeoff than you normally get. Althor's Abacus was good because we had no use for secondary stats or regen at the time, but that's no longer true.

I wouldn't discount something like Rune of Zeth. Crit is worth over half the throughput of Int, so you're not throwing away the passive stat bonus, just giving up part of its throughput for an Int proc that amounts to very nice regen. The disporportionate mana gains from our trinket slots are part of the reason we can give up Spirit in our normal slots for better throughput gains.

#18 Chronosaga

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:37 PM

I'm not going to underestimate mana regen in firelands, I am decked in all 272 gear + SoW and on every fight i could always use more mana. Am I overhealing, trying to do too much? perhaps but it has worked so far and I trust my healing team.

I will try to get spirit on every slot at start(except belt, can't seem to find a spirit one with secondary stats) and if the need arises will reforge out the spirit for crit/mastery but i wont drop moonglow.

#19 Môurn

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 01:20 PM

I doubt it is really worth using a personal damage mitigation cooldown in order to save a not really very substantial amount of mana.

On the 4.2 talent spec issue, can someone comment on our mana situation in PTR raids? Can Regrowth actually replace Healing Touch as our "go to" casted heal as was suspected by some in the old thread with the crit changes? Is that feasible in terms of our mana usage?

If it is, we could take points out of Naturalist in order to maximize Living Seed and Nature's Bounty. I don't see how it is possible otherwise. We need to free up 2-3 talent points from talents like Naturalist, Nature's Cure, Perseverance or Nature's Swiftness.

Druids with Tank healing responsibilities will not take points out of Naturalist ever I guess.

#20 mardish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:02 AM

It looks like Blizzard has changed our Mastery at the last moment to make it a little more competitive with Crit, though my own math still shows it to be the inferior stat. Unless I'm doing this math thing completely wrong, our Mastery would have to give 1.65% bonus healing per point to compete with the improved throughput from crit.

Symbiosis (Mastery) has been removed and replaced with Harmony. Harmony increases direct healing by an additional 10%, and casting direct healing spells grants an additional 10% bonus to periodic healing for 10 seconds. Each point of mastery increases each bonus by an additional 1.25%. Healing Touch, Nourish, Swiftmend, and the initial heal from Regrowth are considered direct healing spells for the purposes of this Mastery. All other healing from druid spells is considered periodic.






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