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[Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD


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#21 Erdluf

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:38 PM

It looks like Blizzard has changed our Mastery at the last moment to make it a little more competitive with Crit, though my own math still shows it to be the inferior stat. Unless I'm doing this math thing completely wrong, our Mastery would have to give 1.65% bonus healing per point to compete with the improved throughput from crit.


Show your work please. 1.65% seems way too high.

From TreeCalcs110620 (I'm pretty sure this assumes 100% Harmony uptime), changed only to favor crit a bit more by adding 3/3 Living Seed and a Revitalizing Meta:

[TABLE]Spell|Crit Scaling|Mastery Scaling
Rejuv| 1.620| 1.583
Regrowth| 1.136| 1.396
Nourish| 0.444| 0.309
HT| 1.345| 0.937
Swiftmend+Efflo| 6.032| 10.809
WG| 4.383| 5.342
Lifebloom, single cast| 0.958| 1.057
Lifebloom, slowroll x3| 1.493| 1.648
Lifebloom, rolling| 1.527| 1.686
Tranquility| 4.217| 4.317
[/TABLE]

You can shift things slightly more towards crit by removing Focus Magic and the 5% crit raid buff (at that point Tranq slightly favors crit).

Rejuv slightly prefers crit. Nourish and HT substantially prefer crit (SM without Efflo would also prefer crit). Everything else prefers Mastery, with Efflo and WG substantially prefering Mastery (Efflo double-dips Mastery, WG gets very few additive bonuses (no GoN)).

With 100% Harmony uptime, crit only wins if you are healing one or two targets (and preferably they like to move out of Efflo).


However, the gap between Crit and Mastery is not all that large. With the sheet's default rotation, 3/3 LS, no 5% crit, and no focus magic, the break-even point occurs at 90% Mastery uptime. Drop LS, add the 5% crit buff, and the break-even point occurs at about 2/3 Harmony uptime (which is maintained by SM on cooldown).

#22 Greentouch

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:40 PM

On the 4.2 talent spec issue, can someone comment on our mana situation in PTR raids? Can Regrowth actually replace Healing Touch as our "go to" casted heal as was suspected by some in the old thread with the crit changes? Is that feasible in terms of our mana usage?

If it is, we could take points out of Naturalist in order to maximize Living Seed and Nature's Bounty. I don't see how it is possible otherwise. We need to free up 2-3 talent points from talents like Naturalist, Nature's Cure, Perseverance or Nature's Swiftness.

Druids with Tank healing responsibilities will not take points out of Naturalist ever I guess.


First off, 3/3 NB, 1/3 LS is quite easy to get, just look at my current spec. A tank healer could drop furor/genesis/NC to max LS.

But the thought of not making those sacrifices, and dropping Naturalist instead intrigued me, so following is some math and my thoughts on the matter.

Regrowth:
Currently (unbuffed in org, near full BIS) I'm averaging 8379 non-crit RG's, 12568.5 crits, with 775 non-crit tics, 1162.5 crit. Keep in mind the NB crit bonus DOES apply to the hot portion.

At 81% crit(not unbuffed, I'm adding in the 5% in a raid) that's an average of 11772.5 and 4355.5 from the hot portion(4 ticks), for 16128 total. If you assume a 30% LS is always used its 14826.64 direct heal, 19182.14 total.

Raid buffed its a 1.2 cast, and costs (with 3/3 Moonglow and SoW) 5566 mana.

Healing Touch:
In contrast, HT averages 20176.8, 30265.2 crits. At 21% crit, that's an average of 22295.36, with a 2.2 cast, and 4718 mana cost. 24202.07 with 100% LS usage.


From this we clearly see that on live, RG is never worth the mana cost, however if its free, (OoC), it is higher hps. (You can cast both a RG and RJ in the same time as one HT.)

Most healers don't need to look at the LS numbers, the only way you can have anywhere near 100% usage, is if you ONLY cast it on active tanks (seems to be on next hit, not actual dmg sadly), and if you DON'T chain cast it, aka if you cast it ever 5-10 seconds and only on active tanks, then LS would get a high use. Use either RG or HT for raid spot heals, and LS won't usually proc.

Now lets see how much 4.2, changes this.
Regrowth:

Still assuming 8379 base, the crits are now 16758, and 1550 crit ticks. So 15166 average hit, 5611 from the hot portion, for 20777 average hit. Include LS, and now its 19238.2 direct, 24849.2 average.

Healing Touch:
HT crits for 40353 now, so an average of 24413.8, 26956.04 with LS.

So RG is a full second faster cast, 848 more mana, and only a bit more then 2K less then HT assuming LS, 4kish without. A lot closer then the 5 and 6kish difference they are currently.

Now I'm thinking a Raid healing druid (most of us) can actually get high use of LS, because we are mostly using our direct heals for the dual purpose of keeping LB and Harmony up, so they are cast on the active tank, and not chain cast, aka the best case scenario for LS.

Furthermore, since us raid healers don't use very many cast heals, most of these are in fact free via OoC, so the mana difference is further trivialized.

After looking at all this, I'm going to start Firelands with no points in naturalist, and go 3/3 LS, 3/3 NB, and see how badly if at all I miss Nourish/HT. Because of course without Naturalist neither of them are worth even being on your bar. HT is still a better emergency burst heal obviously, since you don't need to rely on the LS or hot, but thoughout the tier I've found RG as a better spot heal, because by the time a HT gets off the person is already healed. This experience may vary of course, based on the strength of your healing team. For me, speed and general throughput > size & burst. Now if your team relies on you more heavily for burst Spot heals (which they shouldn't in my opinion, since Rshamans and pallys... well really all healers are better at it) then you might need HT on occasion, and therefore need to keep Naturalist.

Its a rather major decision, because you are completely losing 2 direct heals as part of your toolbox if you elect not to pick up Naturalist. So put some thought into if for your own scenario.
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#23 mardish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:34 PM

I'm probably about to embarrass myself, but here goes!

Perhaps I've oversimplified things, however I don't see how Crit and Mastery would effect all of our spells differently as you listed. Frankly, I don't really even see how a higher Crit rate from spells would effect the importance of the Crit stat with regards to reforging or gemming. Have I misunderstood something? I'll show my work as you asked, and you can tell me how wrong I am. Could you explain what the scaling values represent? I'm unable to view them in OO.org, and can't seem to find documentation for those values anywhere. I understand Efflo's ticks don't crit, which reduces the value there a little bit (but not by much, Efflo only accounts for about 7% of heals in my 10 mans, and we're talking about a % change of that already small value...almost trivial). Likewise, Tranq doesn't appear to crit on every tick, though I'm unclear how this operates. Also, are those values in Treecalcs reflecting the new 1.25% per Mastery point, instead of 1% as was recently the case?

Here's the simplification I was talking about: over the course of a 4 hour raid, I'd assume the unreliability of a 25% Crit chance would roughly even out so that 25% of your spells/ticks had critically hit. Likewise, I assume 100% Harmony uptime, the same as the values you shared. Soo..

The intention of my "math" as I'll call it, until proven a fool, is only to determine if it's better to reforge/gem Crit or Mastery for higher HPS output. This means all I'm looking for is the difference between, for example, 100 points invested in Mastery rating or 100 points in Crit rating.

1 point of Mastery = 1.25% healing gain = 143.42 Mastery rating
(healing gain) / (rating cost) * 100 = % gained per 100 mastery rating
.0125 / 143.42 * 100 = 0.87% healing gain per 100 mastery rating

1% of Crit = 2.0% healing gain (assumes no Revitalizing meta) = 179.28 Crit rating
The 2% comes from a 1% chance of 200% healed = 2%.
.02 / 179.28 * 100 = 1.11% healing gain per 100 crit rating

With Revitalizing meta, it'd be 1.15% per 100 crit rating, using my "math."

Also, 916 rating for a 5th tick of Rejuv, and assuming 25% of raid healing comes from Rejuv results in:
(0.25 * 1.25) - 0.25) / 916 = 0.68% per 100 Haste rating, but is still a valuable breakpoint because if you're reforging below this point you probably won't be able to lose enough Haste to convert towards Mastery and justify the loss of the extra tick.

#24 Hamlet

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:02 PM

143.42 mastery rating gives 0.8 mastery, or 1% to your Harmony bonus (equivalently, 179.28 rating is 1.0 mastery, or 1.25% Harmony). Also, the Harmory bonus is weaker than it looks since it stacks additively with other bonuses that spells are already receiving. Finally, you're doubling the value of crit for some reason--1% crit will tend to add 1% to your total healing output.

#25 Môurn

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:17 PM

Thanks for the testing!

First off, 3/3 NB, 1/3 LS is quite easy to get, just look at my current spec. A tank healer could drop furor/genesis/NC to max LS.

I'm aware of that. I was trying to find a way to get 3/3 NB and 3/3 LS while keeping NS (as a 25 man Raid Healer, so dropping Genesis for Living Seed is out of the question).

After looking at all this, I'm going to start Firelands with no points in naturalist, and go 3/3 LS, 3/3 NB, and see how badly if at all I miss Nourish/HT. Because of course without Naturalist neither of them are worth even being on your bar. HT is still a better emergency burst heal obviously, since you don't need to rely on the LS or hot, but thoughout the tier I've found RG as a better spot heal, because by the time a HT gets off the person is already healed. This experience may vary of course, based on the strength of your healing team. For me, speed and general throughput > size & burst. Now if your team relies on you more heavily for burst Spot heals (which they shouldn't in my opinion, since Rshamans and pallys... well really all healers are better at it) then you might need HT on occasion, and therefore need to keep Naturalist.

Its a rather major decision, because you are completely losing 2 direct heals as part of your toolbox if you elect not to pick up Naturalist. So put some thought into if for your own scenario.

Completely agree. However, if you only want to spend 31 points in the tree you'll have to drop Nature's Swiftness (and Nature's Cure). You need to put 1 point in either Naturalist or Perseverance to advance and then maxing LS + NB along with NS has us spending 32 points.

So two questions arise in my opinion.

1. Perseverance or 1 point in Naturalist - I will try 0/2 Naturalist as well and opt for Perseverance.

2. 2/3 Living Seed or Nature's Swiftness - I am not completely sure here, but I think I will opt for 2/3 Living Seed and keep Nature's Swiftness.

So, the idea being to keep the Mastery bonus up via Swiftmend and Regrowth on the Tank and dumping OoC procs into Regrowth where needed. Spec being like this.

Edit: Just realized, this will also make the Glyph of Healing Touch obsolete along with the Glyph of Innervate, so pretty much the grand choice of Glyph of Barkskin or Glyph of Thorns remains. :dance:

#26 mardish

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:35 PM

Finally, you're doubling the value of crit for some reason--1% crit will tend to add 1% to your total healing output.


I literally just realized this as I woke up from a nap. I attribute the error to sleep deprivation, thanks for pointing it out :P And I misunderstood some other things as well. So...I retract everything I've said, Mastery it is then!

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 10:39 PM

Some small updates to OP for tomorrow. More haste points listed, slightly rearranged stats.

Also updates to TC--fixed Eye of Blazing Power, and Innervate now assumes that controllable Int effects (trinkets and Engineering) are fully active.

No Nourish bonus yet, keep that in mind if you're looking at the recent Naturalist discussion.

As an added little bonus, people can find my expected BIS list filled out in the sheet (but it's still not totally clear with Resto).

#28 Erdluf

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:33 AM

People playing with Crit or Regrowth builds may want to use

Treecalcs110627 isn't handling that correctly. I believe the fix is to put

=IF(OR(D8="Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond",D8="Burning Shadowspirit Diamond"),IF(AC22>=3,TRUE,FALSE),IF(D8="Ember Shadowspirit Diamond",IF(AC21>=2,TRUE,FALSE),IF(D8="Revitalizing Shadowspirit Diamond",AND(AC20>0,AC21>0))))
into cell AB20 of the "Gear Setup" tab.

Also change cell Z9 of the "Charsheetdata" tab to "54 Spirit, +3% Crit Healing". That won't change any numbers, but it does change the text displayed in cell D9 of the "Gear Setup" tab.

#29 Môurn

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:02 AM

The Regrowth idea is only for it to possibly replace the other casted heals. It will still be a very small part of (at least my) healing. In this context the Revitalizing Shadowspirit Metagem is definately inferior to the 54 Int gem.

#30 Greentouch

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:20 AM

Absolutely, no one will have the mana to get high use from RG. Most of them will be covered by OoC's, otherwise only as needed for spot healz, or to keep up harmony.

This isn't to say it might not be a good meta, because unless I'm mistaken that 3% effects hot ticks as well. So I'll leave it to someone else to sim, but I would assume with our pretty low crit rate, and that we still can use more mana from the Ember, that we'll be staying with Ember this tier. Next tier I'm guessing we'll be past mana worries unless they nerf something hard, and have higher crit, so maybe we can use it then.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft will be what I rock, with the last point in genesis or furor, depending on my mana situation. Probably Genesis to start with since it is normal the first week anyway. But especially for Progression NS can conceivably save a raid, which is more then what you can say for any other optional talent.
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#31 Môurn

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:40 AM

Don't you think 1 point more in Genesis is better than the final point in Living Seed? That is the only place our builds differ and as stated before I'm not yet certain which way to go. By and large looking at my WoL parses, I expect 1 point of Genesis to be more beneficial than 1 point of Living Seed (even in 4.2).

#32 Greentouch

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:10 AM

Probably to be honest, but I don't want to drop NS and my math was assuming 3/3 so I want to try it! After a raid night I'll know what kind of % of total healing it ends up and can make a more informed decision.
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#33 Daisil

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:14 AM

I'm having a really hard time agreeing with dropping the ability to use Nourish and Healing Touch as spot tank heals for the added benefit of Living Seed with Regrowth when the majority of regrowth is simply OoC. I think it's an extremely interesting spec to run, however it would feel rather limiting as far as your role (being able to tank heal vs raid heal, swapping between, etc). I don't think I will run with this right away unless there is strong evidence towards it, but it is definitely an interesting concept.

#34 Erdluf

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:17 AM

In this context the Revitalizing Shadowspirit Metagem is definately inferior to the 54 Int gem.


If you have 25% crit raid-buffed, no NB, and no LS, then 40% of your raw healing is from a crit (or things like crit-derived Efflorescence). That means that Revitalizing is worth 3%*40% = 1.2% raw HPS all by itself. Since you've probably got more than 5400 Int, unbuffed, Ember is less than 1% throughput. Revitalizing is stronger for throughput..

Ember is quite a bit better for mana though.

#35 Greentouch

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:51 AM

I'm in Full BIS except Sinestra boots (12 kills no drops at ALL), and cloak, (1 drop...) and AC offhand, and I don't have 25% crit raid-buffed. 22% maybe. Of course RG use change the numbers some, but I doubt I'll have more then 10% healing from it.

That does look closer then I was thinking though, don't forget spirit is worth at best, half of what INT is, so if the 2 gems are close in value (as they seem to be) then getting 54 passive INT > 54 spirit.

By the end of the tier or beginning of next one I'll probably be switching though.
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#36 Anaram

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:49 AM

I'd say the biggest problem with crit is the same as it ever was: it's unreliable. Sometimes it hurts more and sometimes it hurts less.

#37 Daisil

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 01:13 PM

Greentouch, have you considered the following? (spec)

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


This would allow you to have healing touch/nourish for tank healing situations (in the event you have to tank heal at all) however it does result in dropping NS so I am not so sure how I feel about it.



The alternative would be: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for me I would assume. I am debating if I would want to keep nature's swiftness for it's usefulness and ability to prevent a death, but I am not sure what the math is behind 3/3 LS vs 2/3.

For the time being I will be using the above spec for maximum regen, NS, and 2/3 LS.



The biggest issue I have overall is LS is purely Physical damage so it would require dumping the vast majority of your CC into the tank to actually gain any benefit from it. I will have to monitor logs and see how useful it really is, but my overall feeling towards LS is fairly *meh*. The numbers would seem fairly insignificant unless I get an insane number of CC procs vs having the ability to cover tank healing when necessary (However, as you said, this does depend on your healing team, and other variables).

#38 Môurn

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:27 PM

The alternative would be: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for me I would assume. I am debating if I would want to keep nature's swiftness for it's usefulness and ability to prevent a death, but I am not sure what the math is behind 3/3 LS vs 2/3.

For the time being I will be using the above spec for maximum regen, NS, and 2/3 LS.

This is the same as my spec linked a page earlier except for 2/3 Furor instead of 2/3 Genesis. I think/hope you should be able to run 2/3 Genesis if you have Shard of Woe.

The biggest issue I have overall is LS is purely Physical damage so it would require dumping the vast majority of your CC into the tank to actually gain any benefit from it. I will have to monitor logs and see how useful it really is, but my overall feeling towards LS is fairly *meh*. The numbers would seem fairly insignificant unless I get an insane number of CC procs vs having the ability to cover tank healing when necessary (However, as you said, this does depend on your healing team, and other variables).


With the Mastery change you will need to cast Regrowth on the Tank regularly since Swiftmend has a longer cd (15 sec) than the Harmony uptime (10 sec). So, it's not really about how effective it will be as a raid healing tool, but rather mainly a fast heal to refresh Harmony, that also puts Living Seed on the Tank. You alternate (it) with Swiftmend and you may even cast it up to once in 10 seconds to refresh Lifebloom on the Tank (though I think I will be alternating that with manual refreshes of Lifebloom as well).
There is no real point in follwing a rigid strategy for refreshing, but one could perhaps try and run two scenarios where one refreshes Harmony with Swiftmend (mainly to activate Efflorescence) and manually refreshes LB in Scenario 1 and Regrowth refreshes both Harmony and Lifebloom in Scenario 2.

#39 Daisil

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:32 PM

This is the same as my spec linked a page earlier except for 2/3 Furor instead of 2/3 Genesis. I think/hope you should be able to run 2/3 Genesis if you have Shard of Woe.


I am running 2 points in furor to remain conservative moving forward with Hardmodes. Mana overall on PTR was fine, however I feel that even with SoW 2/3 Furor gives me a bit more wiggle room. For me at least with progression my main concern isn't having additional, increased healing, it's all about being able to have the mana near the end of the fight if it's needed, and to have it for those unexpected hiccups. I'd be afraid primarily on HC progression to be running without Furor with it being practically guaranteed that I will have mana issues. Could I run without 2 points in Furor for the first week of normal clears? Sure. Is there much reason to? Not really.


Speccing out of Furor is something I would be looking at later as I gather gear and as the progression race ends. Having more mana just seems overall better than having slightly more throughput in this situation though.

#40 csar

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:25 AM

Green i tested your not having any points in naturalist and i found it to be a terrible idea. There is alot of tank damage and some periods with no raid damage and the inablility to spam HT hinders my healing. Plus i dont have the mana to cast RG to refresh Harmony on cooldown unless i have OOC procs.




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