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[Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD


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#41 Daisil

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:16 AM

I ran it for Beth'tilac and wasn't honestly impressed >,< Was less than 1%

#42 Rolfe

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:30 AM

I ran without Naturalist tonight using this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

My guild cleared 6/7 25m tonight and I just felt like I was destroying the other healers in HPS. I don't know if it was just because of the new mastery or if this spec even had anything to do with it, but I can definitely say I didn't miss Healing Touch at all. Running with this spec might feel a bit weird at first, but after I realized how easy it was to keep up the Rejuvs to have over 90% uptime on Nature's Bounty the "rotation" felt pretty smooth. I was able to Nourish spam just as easily as if I had Naturalist, and the longer duration on CC lets you hold a Regrowth for a spike on the tank followed by Swiftmend which makes Healing Touch not needed at all.

Comparing to some logs from last weeks Tier 11 raids, having Nature's Bounty and Living seed added almost 4% to my healing done. I really like how our healing potential looks going forward into this tier and I think this should be the go-to spec for throughput.

#43 Sasazuka

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:20 AM

Ran 10m today and downed two bosses (Shannox and Beth'thilac) while wiping the remainder of the time on Alysrazor. My spec pretty much remained as is in 4.1 but I shifted two points from Perseverance to Nature's Bounty (which had 0 points).

Without looking more carefully at the logs, I can't comment on the throughput of Harmony but I really dislike it's short duration causing me to spam Nourish. For Shannox, I had 92.3% uptime on Harmony (forgot to log on Beth'thilac). I'm not entirely sure if my dislike for it is due to the different playstyle (I'm still chasing my WG out of habit). I'd say there's more for druids to keep track while raiding now compared to before. I don't think I'd recommend not taking Naturalist if you are raiding 10m and maybe in 25m until you are really comfortable with the fight and the damage output.

Critical heals for 200% sure does feel great. Mana does feel a bit tighter but I'm currently still glyphing Innervate and using it on another healer (shaman).

EDIT: Would it make sense to use the amount of time saved with Naturalist as a quantifier for how effective Naturalist is on healing?

#44 Kluian

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:59 PM

Personally I like Naturalist. Especially if you have 3 rejuv's on the raid and benefit from Nature's Bounty. Nourish becomes a very fast cast so makes keeping up Harmony relatively easy in between SM cd's.

#45 Greentouch

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:30 AM

I'm afraid we started a little fad here... I did say it originally I believe, but to emphasize, the "no naturalist" spec is experimental at best, and only good for a very small subset of raiders.

Geared well enough, probably with SoW so it won't oom you, with a strong enough healer team you never feel the need for those big burst heals.

And yes, ANYONE in a 10 man needs the flexibility from Naturalist.

Looking at all the abilities and numbers for all the healers (I've played them all at least somewhat), Rdruids role is still quite similar to what it was in Wotlk, just more complicated/challenging/fun to play. 90% of our role is raw HPS as a buffer on the raid. Our best heals are hots, we don't burst, group heal, mitigate, absorb, or spot heal as well. (Please don't use this as an excuse to let people die... we still spot heal well enough.) It's not brainless all over the raid hot buffer no, you only start prehotting for damage maybe 5 seconds in advance now while wotlk you basically never stopped.

The class that is MADE to spot heal? Rshamans, absolutely. I wanted to main swap, I thought they were great fun, their mastery and tidal waves beg for spot healing. Pallys are next, they can spot heal raid while keeping a stream of heals on the tank. You might not view it as that, but disc bubbles are a great spot heal... they protect the person until some aoe healing can catch em up, and no heal is faster, because they are instant with no cd. Holy priest I've played the least, but they seemed better at spot healing, obviously better at burst healing.

That's all just theory, all healers CAN spot heal. Who is best in YOUR raid? Forget the class, reflexes and lag matter most. If that's all equal, yes druids are worst, if you are faster then your other healers though, you're a better spot healer.

One last note: I still spot heal. Absolutely. Whenever in my (instinctive) opinion the person may need one. About 10% of my healing. ALL GOOD HEALERS SPOT HEAL. The above discussion is about who actually does most of it, or is assigned it. I don't do heavy spot healing, I never need to burst a raid person from 10% to full... by myself, like ever.

I just don't use HT (nobody would ever, hopefully use Nourish as a spot heal...). I use SM and RG, and RG isn't a huge heal, but its fast and in my raid I'll guarantee there are other heals flying that direction. HT would just overheal 98% of the time. RG get's them into the safer zone quick, and the hot is about as likely to be used as any other hots really. So its just another buffer, which is fine.
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#46 Vkedi

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:46 PM

I have been watching these resto druid posts for years. First of all thanks for all the information in here. Anyway I decide be part of the brain storm in here.

As the Hamlet said every 143.42 mastery gives %1 harmony bonus. And for the druids who has around 370-372 ilvl %7 harmony should be logical. So that makes 1004 mastery is the cap for %7 harmony bonus. I've reforged my gear a lot with spirit to mastery and mastery to spirit combination so at the moment my mastery is exactly 1004 and my harmony bonus %7. I didn't test for %8 bonus tho. But as the numbers says it should be 1147.

#47 Harru

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:44 PM

There is no cap for mastery. Each point of mastery still gives bonus between 7% and 8% points. It's just tooltip issue.

#48 Môurn

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 03:42 PM

Despite Greentouch and me coming up with the "No Naturalist Build", I'm far from convinced It's the build to go for. We did three bosses yesterday and HPS wise it felt fine, but Mana was a concern here and there (and I have pretty much best in slot gear everywhere).
Also, this was just normal modes. The heroics coming up ought to be a lot more taxing, so more testing is required, until a definitive judgment can be made.

I think we should be able to come to some conclusion after 1-2 full Id's.

Getting used to having to keep up Harmony is also something, that will need a few raids I think. I felt, I could have definitely done a better job there in my first 4.2 raid. I expect reliance on Regrowth will help there though.

#49 Morbit

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 05:21 AM

I have what may be a stupid question about how Harmony works. If there is a 3x LB on someone and you get Harmony do you have to cast the whole stack after it goes away to get the increase to healing or if you just refresh the stack will it turn your 3x into a 3x+Harmony healing?

#50 Chainfire

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:09 AM

I have what may be a stupid question about how Harmony works. If there is a 3x LB on someone and you get Harmony do you have to cast the whole stack after it goes away to get the increase to healing or if you just refresh the stack will it turn your 3x into a 3x+Harmony healing?

Not a stupid question at all. Any hots that are refreshed snapshot the current buffs and values at the time of cast. If you refresh a stack of 3 Lifeblooms after gaining Harmony then the entire stack is updated with your values (ie: harmony buff) at the time of refreshing.

Long story short is, casting 3 lifeblooms does x hps untill you refresh it. It then picks up whatever buffs you have on (spellpower, haste, etc... NOT CRIT, crit scales along as you you get it and updates your dots) and give it to the lifebloom.

You can actually use this to your advantage if you plan a Regrowth to provide you extra haste. I always regrowth to try grab the haste buff before casting tranquility as you can often net another tick from it :P

#51 P_H

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 10:14 AM

I always regrowth to try grab the haste buff before casting tranquility as you can often net another tick from it :P

Tranquility doesn't gain extra ticks from Haste. The ticks come in closer together so that your total channel duration is shorter with added Haste, but not new ticks.

EDIT
The actual Tranquility channel does not gain ticks from Haste, but the HoT portion of it will, yes. Sorry I did not clarify that in the first place.

#52 infinitum

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 02:42 PM

Tranquility doesn't gain extra ticks from Haste. The ticks come in closer together so that your total channel duration is shorter with added Haste, but not new ticks.


The HoT portion of the spell will. Typically 6 ticks (instead of the base 4) in a raid environment and with NG up.

Druid Haste Rating Breakpoints

#53 Ultis

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 01:22 PM

I don't understand very much what many people mean by "having enough mana" or "having the right amount of mana".

As far as I can tell, the only amount of mana which is absolutely needed for optimal HPS is the amount needed to keep up Lifebloom and Harmony, proc Nature's Grace on cooldown, and use Swiftmend and Wild Growth every time they are off cooldown and someone is not at full health.

After this, for the purpose of maximizing raid healing HPS, any more mana is optional and just means you can cast single-target heals more (Rejuvenation is usually highest HPM if it doesn't overheal, Nourish may be highest HPM with SoW+Jaws). Having too much mana is only an issue when such heals can be spammed liberally (on targets not at full health) without running OOM.

However, as far as I can tell, all currently achievable Spirit amounts result in regeneration lying between those two extremes (and I believe Blizzard designers would consider any other situation an issue to be fixed).

This means that the Spirit vs Mastery decision boils down to computing how the healing from the additional Rejuvenations (or perhaps direct heals) that can be cast with more Spirit compares to the boost to all spells already being cast from more Mastery. Note that it is possible that the optimum is a balance of Spirit and Mastery since they influence each other.

Of course this assumes that the player will somehow learn to adapt their rate of casting single-target heals to the available mana regeneration rate; if that's not the case, then there is indeed a "right" amount of mana, but gearing for this is suboptimal compared to adjusting execution to use more/less mana as appropriate.

This is hard to compute in a realistic way, because it strongly depends on overhealing, and I don't think there is any tool currently available which can produce recommendations that could be really trusted to apply to any given real world situation, since current models either ignore overhealing, or use the unrealistic assumption of a fixed overhealing rate not dependent on stats (in practice, more Mastery means more overhealing due to more powerful heals, and more Spirit means more overhealing due to healing extra more healthy targets).

I think it might be possible to create a tool that can analyze combat logs to find out whether reforging Mastery->Spirit or viceversa would be beneficial, but doing so is much harder than it seems at first sight.

#54 Greentouch

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 05:44 PM

@thedave, I'm sorry I did read that wrong, even so RG will usually crit, and my post a bit back I mathed out the average between crits and not, on the direct heal and the hot, and it looks pretty good.
I don't think crit is better then mastery. I'm not telling people to reforge for it. I'm saying mastery is BARELY better then crit, which is true. If you have enough haste and spirit, then crit/mastery gear is technically bis. Though I'd prefer to reforge haste off and have it everywhere as I've said. The tier helm has no haste either, so replacing the helm gives you more haste same as replacing the gloves, but the the tier gloves will be better then the tier helm in full 391 bis.

As to Efflo, yes it is effected by crit, just as much as any of our heals. It just doesn't double dip. If the SM crits, then Efflo is doubled.

The rest of your post is basically repeating what I said. The actual "BIS" list we push for, and decide on the offpc for, isn't for tier 12 content. Its for t13. In that bis 391 set, we have tons of int, and therefore need less spirit. On the way to that set, during all of t12 progression, you'll naturally need spirit, its value will probably be pretty close to the other secondary stats. Since they are all so close, which you choose for the offset for progression won't matter. Really. Having 100 haste or mastery or spirit or crit, vs any one of the previous, simply will not make a noticeable difference (excepting breakpoints of course, but that's what reforging is for).

So I was thinking ahead to the BIS list I'm building, I can always reforge spirit on until I'm reforging it off.

@Ultis. Making it way too complicated in my opinion. The rule I've been quoting for ever is easy and it works. It does assume a person knows how to heal, and isn't... idk spamming RG or something. (Like the last ZA I tanked...Rdruid with 60% healing from Rg, always oom, big surprise.)
"Spirit, until you have enough mana for your longest/hardest fight."

Don't obsess over overhealing. Guess what, if you do a boss and have high overhealing, and you come back and do it next week and 1-2 healers die or dc, all of a sudden what was overhealing last time, is now vitally needed healing. As hot healers, we will have high overhealing, if the people are getting routinely topped off, and there isn't constant damage. But we still do well, we still provide some hps buffer. Obviously you want to use all your heals intelligently to reduce overhealing. But where druids shine, is with heavy damage, where the raid doesn't sit topped off for long if at all.

Healers always gear for the worst case scenario. In the worst case scenario, there is Zero overhealing. In my opinion, we don't need a tool to factor in average overhealing or anything like that.

More mana = more Rejuv's, that's the worth of spirit, RJ is usually our filler, you're right. But in BIS with SoW, I can spam my highest HPS rotation for quite awhile before I oom. Bump up my I-LV from 370-390, and I think I'll be able to spam RJ (and WG/SM/LB as needed of course) through a whole boss fight if needed. At which point, adding more spirit is obviously completely worthless.

NOTE: Didn't say spirit will be completely worthless yet. Said adding MORE spirit will be (in bis)completely worthless. We'll still need some, there is plenty of spirit on my BIS list, but no it isn't on everything, nor does it need to be.
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#55 Ultis

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 08:20 PM

"Spirit, until you have enough mana for your longest/hardest fight."


The issue I see with this is that "having enough mana" is ill-defined because it depends on how aggressively you cast Rejuvenation, unless what is meant here is that even with the most aggressive use of Rejuvenation mana won't be an issue in T12 heroics (I wouldn't expect this, but might well be wrong).

It's possible one could go by some kind of "gut feeling" on that, but I'm not too sure how accurate that would prove to be.

The thing I'll probably try to do is to capture videos of all raids (via Fraps or similar) and look at how much/when I tend to use Rejuvenation and other spells and the evolution of the mana bar, then change the Spirit/Mastery reforging and try to compare things.

Part of the issue though is that on normal modes once attempts start being done well enough to allow meaningful information to be gleaned, the boss goes down pretty much immediately, so there's just not much data available yet.

Don't obsess over overhealing. Guess what, if you do a boss and have high overhealing, and you come back and do it next week and 1-2 healers die or dc, all of a sudden what was overhealing last time, is now vitally needed healing.

In the worst case scenario, there is Zero overhealing


That's an interesting perspective, but I have some doubts about the "zero overhealing" assertion.

Specifically, there are several cases where overhealing will happen regardless of the number of healers or encounter tuning:
- If there are less than 5 people with an health deficit in range, Wild Growth will be partially wasted
- If people cannot be clumped, or if it's necessary to use Swiftmend on a tank, Efflorescence will be partially wasted
- If the tank damage is very spiky, hots will be partially wasted, as well as direct heals used to top off the tank to ensure the next spike doesn't kill it
- If raid damage is very spiky, whatever you use to top the raid off to avert impeding doom will also be partially wasted

The Mastery/Spirit issue can be particularly sensitive to these things, as Mastery gets most of its value by boosting Wild Growth and boosting Efflorescence twice, which depends on those being cast often and with low overhealing.

It's also obviously pretty sensitive to the cast frequency of those heals, so even the choosing to not cast them has an effect: if you either increase the overhealing or reduce the cast frequency on either of these spells, Mastery (as well as Crit, somewhat less) plummets in value compared to Spirit.

That's why, despite having written the current (rewritten) Rawr.Tree model, I'm having more and more doubts on whether such synthetic modeling is actually of much use.

Log-based analysis might be better, but has the issue that the data has high variance, and can either be bad if you consider wipe, or just too sparse if you only consider kills.

Bump up my I-LV from 370-390, and I think I'll be able to spam RJ (and WG/SM/LB as needed of course) through a whole boss fight if needed. At which point, adding more spirit is obviously completely worthless


The existing models don't seem to agree with that statement.

Using Rawr with a heroic FL BiS set and talents mostly optimized for mana regeneration (manually), I'm getting 1434 mps (+96 mps T12 2P), while TreeCalcs lists in 914 mps with the gear it has set by default.

Since Rejuvenation costs around 2837 with Jaws+SoW (Jaws might be imperfectly modelled though), it can't be spammed indefinitely, and in fact Rawr gives 17% idle time if Nourish use is disabled (and 27% with overall optimized gear).

Of course, it's still possible that in practice that's enough mana to use Rejuvenation/Nourish any time it would make sense on real boss fights, and still have some left, not sure.

#56 Greentouch

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 09:06 PM

If you are healing right, how aggressively you use RJ, is based off of how much you need to use it, aka how much damage is going out. Hence the "enough mana for your longest/hardest fight." And if you routinely end hard fights with mana to spare, or find yourself not using innervate off cd, then you dump some spirit. Really not rocket science.


When I say "Worst case" that means as bad as it gets. If ever went into the final phase of a boss, high damage going out, maybe its a progression kill attempt, you've lost a few healers, and now you are solo healing a 10m, or 1-3 healing a 25, then you know what I mean. You are trying to keep everyone alive, so you aren't healing 1 person to 50%, if another is at 10%. Now maybe a scenario where you absolutely have zero overhealing isn't likely. But you are nitpicking things that simply don't matter, the obvious point was in the worst case scenario, overheal isn't an important factor.

WG almost never gets wasted, it has what, a 25 yard range now? (More wasted in 10m I'm sure, but rarely would people really need to spread out that much.) And that isn't overheal anyway. Efflo only needs 3 ppl in it, but yes it can get wasted (not overhealing). Hp pools are much larger now, so some fights its certainly possible to keep everyone alive without anyone ever getting topped. (worst case, I'm not recommending it...) Obviously spike damage which does 90% of a persons hp is the exception... But none of that matters, you can't accurately forecast which spells are going to overheal in all situations, and its the worst situations that matter most and where overheal matters least, so it simply isn't worth trying to figure out.

Efflo double dips on mastery which keeps it slightly ahead of crit. Harmony uptime less then 100% lowers it. So how well you use harmony and efflo effect that equation, but the equation works well enough to simply say mastery is a bit ahead of crit, they are both good, but prioritize mastery. And use Harmony and efflo better if you aren't.


Is this 1434 mps counting innervate/conc pot/mana tide? Besides, that's 92 seconds straight of just spamming RJ (which isn't what anyone would do) if you start at 130k mana. Add in WG/SM/LB & harmony refreshes, and OoC use, and our conservation phase when we switch to LB during ToL, and your doing pretty well. If you use HT to burn an OoC, then during that free 2 second cast, you regen enough for an entire extra RJ. So every OoC adds 3 seconds to that 92. Doing all this, I can get through a whole boss fight already using RJ as filler anytime it makes sense. I guarantee when I get FL BIS, I won't be able to heal smart and oom, no matter how hard I push.

I don't have that in front of me, so I don't know what the BIS max buffed mana will be, but we aren't aiming to maintain, we are aiming to end near Oom otherwise we are wasting mana.

At that regen level, you are recuperating pretty damn quick during phases that are less intensive.


Of course, it's still possible that in practice that's enough mana to use Rejuvenation/Nourish any time it would make sense on real boss fights, and still have some left, not sure.



Exactly. And you simply can't make a model that works for even a larger minority of raiding rdruids. So much depends on how pro your raid is, how many healers, what class the other healers are, how good the other healers are, whether they are dead or dc'd, how many mana tides you get, how high your dps is, how pro the raid is about using defensive cd's and avoiding damage, etc.
Hence, we do go by the gut feeling on a per person basis. It's easy, and it works, it isn't rocket science, but people know when they oom or are uncomfortably near it.

"If you have enough mana for your longest/hardest fight, having used Innervate optimally and a pot" then you have enough spirit. If you have extra, depending on how much cushion you personally feel the need for, you may start reforging it off.
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#57 Ultis

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 10:53 PM

If you are healing right, how aggressively you use RJ, is based off of how much you need to use it, aka how much damage is going out. Hence the "enough mana for your longest/hardest fight." And if you routinely end hard fights with mana to spare, or find yourself not using innervate off cd, then you dump some spirit. Really not rocket science.


Well, the thing is, even if one ends the fight OOM, one could opt to use Rejuvenation a bit less, remove the spirit one no longer needs due to that, invest it in an overall boost to healing via Mastery, and get out ahead with better overall performance on meters, if that Mastery boost results in more healing gain than the healing lost due to the Rejuvenations not cast.

In other words, the gut feeling can tell someone he is "too oom", but it's not very clear whether the best move is to reforge some Mastery to Spirit, or instead to press the Rejuvenation (or maybe Nourish/HT) button a bit less when it's not strictly necessary (viceversa if ending up with a lot of mana).

A lot of (perhaps most?) single-targeted raid healing is not strictly needed, because other healers can cover it (and can be better suited for that), or it's possible that it can be covered by repeated application of Wild Growth, Efflorescence and similar very high HPM multi-target short cooldown heals.

#58 Anaram

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:48 PM

Spirit is problematic in that a significant portion of fights favour either short term throughput or give extra mana through fight mechanics.

Crit is troublesome due to it's inherently unpredictable nature.

When sustained throughput is similar, then mastery (being at least controllable) seems best.

#59 Carebare

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 10:32 PM

Gear discussions had enough participation to warrant a separate thread. Please discuss gearing there. There is some overlap, but generally try to think about what you're posting and where it would fit best. Many thanks.

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#60 Hamlet

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 06:31 AM

One thing people have been asking ever since 4.0 is: how much Int is it worth it to sacrifice to reach a major haste breakpoint (it was 1016 haste for Rejuv6 back in ICC, and 2005 haste for WG9 now). I've never really come up with a solid answer here. To some extent, it hasn't wound up mattering in top gear since we've always been able to reach the relevant point without giving up Int. But it's still worth looking into since it matters in intermediate gear.

The main problem is that when I try to look at through a simple TreeCalcs comparison, the results are somewhat lopsided. Summarizing:
--WG and Efflo together make up ~45% of our healing on paper. In practice it might even be more since they're both smart heals that should have higher effectiveness than Rejuv, although it might be interesting to take a look that in real parses.
--Adding 12.5% (size of a 9th tick) should be at least a 6% upgrade to overall healing.
--But when you try to equate that to Int, a full 6% of your total healing represents a huge amount--many hundreds of Int. This shouldn't really be surprising; we're going to hit 10000 raid-buffed spellpower this tier, and you can get a ballpark of where 6% will be.
--Even if you try to take into account the mana benefits of the Int, saying (somewhat generously) that the mana value of Int is equal to its spellpower value, you could easily be looking at 400-500 Int required to effect a 6% total change in your healing.

So question is, is this simple analysis overlooking something major? Or should we really be emphasizing the 2005 haste even more than we are, to the tune of essentially always gemming haste in order to meet it?

(I put this here instead of the gear thread since it's really a question about what assumptions we make when doing healing theorycraft.)




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