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[Balance] Cataclysm 4.2 Firelands (OLD)


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#1 Hamlet

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 06:34 AM

OP updated for 4.2 and thread rebooted to clean out old content. Some notes on the update:

--Some item links are being wonky as usual right before at patch. They should work correctly after 4.2 goes live on 6/28, but for now I tried to include the correct item name afterwards.
--Most of the edits are trying to describe the effects of the new Lunar Shower change, and they're all somewhat preliminary until we've had more of a chance to see how things work out in raids.
--You can see discussion of the LS change in the new subsection of Talents and in the Movement and AoE sections.
--The old "Sunfire spam rotation" section is deleted. It didn't really add much in the first place, since Sunfire spam was only used as a movement/AoE or Eclipse delaying technique, not a truly separate rotation.
--Tailoring adjusted to reflect 60s ICD. I suppose it's still slightly better than others, so if you have it, there's no reason to change.
--Recommend Glyph of Wrath over Glyph of Starfire now for general use.
--Adjusted general stat priority and added a note on how hit is evaluated.
--Trinket evaluation is tricky and might need some refinement. The issue is that some trinkets afford passive stats (which will always be reforged to haste) and some don't, and the difference can be quite significant if you're near a haste breakpoint. Necromantic Focus is strong enough that it's unlikely to ever drop to 3rd place, so the BIS duo of Focus and Volcano should be pretty safe, but beyond that it's very muddled.

#2 Carebare

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:03 AM

Old contents have been moved to this thread: http://elitistjerks....lysm_old_4_1_a/

Hamlet still has some updating/polishing left to do, so please any feedback on the content of the lead post should be PM'd to him directly. Patch is likely to occur on 6/28, but most of the raid-level theoretical discussion has been on 4.2 for quite awhile. It is okay to still discuss raid relevant 4.1 information here until the patch goes live.

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#3 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:55 PM

As something of a continuation on the LS issue, I wanted to offer up this thought. In situations where we are going to want to multi-dot targets, I believe Hamlet said earlier that it would take 14 Moon/Sunfires to transition out of an Eclipsed state. In reality, I don't even think we can keep more than 7 pairs of DoTs rolling at a time. That gives us enough time to get 2 full durations of Eclipsed DoTs, assuming an AoE phase even lasts that long (we are talking about 35 seconds of AoE). That's also enough time to get at least 3 Eclipsed Wild Mushroom detonations off. Do we really need more than that? This can even be prolonged slightly a little weaving with Sunfire (such as SF->IS->IS->SF->repeat).

That sort of leads into my next line of thought. If this was meant to curb our multi-dotting capabilities did it even succeed at that? In situations where there is prolonged AoE over the course more than 30 seconds this may hamper us a little bit, but those aren't exactly regular occurrences. In fact, I'm scratching my head a little bit trying to think of one. If that's the case, then perhaps instead of looking at this as a drawback (which can be overcome, even if through gimmicky gameplay), we should see it as a bonus to building into Solar if we find ourselves needing to move.

Because the change can be circumvented, I still think we'll see a change that makes Moonfire and Sunfire (if not IS too) always generate energy, regardless.

#4 Burken

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 04:37 PM

Since Innervate only gives 5% to other targets now. Wouldnt taking Dream state and innervating yourself pretty much completely nullify the manaproblem of not having LS?
I cant really see how LS would be a good thing in any multidot situation. You want as much energy to spare anyway to punch out all the shooting stars proccs anyway right? so dots stealing energy is pretty much always bad then. Note: in any from of multidot situation.

#5 copialinex

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:52 PM

I've been testing the /cancelaura LS macro and it didn't work roughly 1/4 of the times, maybe this is just bad luck or because I run with a high latency in the PTR (last test was with 270ms).

On a side note, I wanted to clarify myself from the 4.1 thread, but since it's closed, I'll do here:
I talked about Rep rings being exclusive, but I mistook the rings, the ones that are exclusive are the valor rings, I don't know about rep rings.
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#6 Cdin

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:27 PM

That sort of leads into my next line of thought. If this was meant to curb our multi-dotting capabilities did it even succeed at that? In situations where there is prolonged AoE over the course more than 30 seconds this may hamper us a little bit, but those aren't exactly regular occurrences. In fact, I'm scratching my head a little bit trying to think of one. If that's the case, then perhaps instead of looking at this as a drawback (which can be overcome, even if through gimmicky gameplay), we should see it as a bonus to building into Solar if we find ourselves needing to move.


Your focus is too narrow on this issue. You're only thinking about the DPS of our DoTs rather then our total DPS.

Blizzards intent wasn't to limit the DPS potential of our DoTs, but to limit our DPS potential on fights were Multi-DoTing is possible. This change may not reduce our DoT DPS at all but it will result in a DPS reduction for our Nukes, because Multi-DoTTing will consume energy when it didn't before. Thus lowering out DPS over all.

That said, it could be argued that this change won't have as big of an impact as blizzard desires.
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#7 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 04:47 AM

Your focus is too narrow on this issue. You're only thinking about the DPS of our DoTs rather then our total DPS.

Blizzards intent wasn't to limit the DPS potential of our DoTs, but to limit our DPS potential on fights were Multi-DoTing is possible. This change may not reduce our DoT DPS at all but it will result in a DPS reduction for our Nukes, because Multi-DoTTing will consume energy when it didn't before. Thus lowering out DPS over all.

That said, it could be argued that this change won't have as big of an impact as blizzard desires.


I was thinking more about our DPS as a whole, even if I didn't articulate that very well. Obviously the difference isn't the output of our DoTs, but the lack of Eclipsed Wraths that would follow them. And to be honest, it's our DoTs that do the bulk of that damage in comparison anyway. I still think my general premise holds true though. Because the change is so easily circumvented, does it even succeed at limiting our DPS outupt? I really don't think it does. It may be a bit more difficult and annoying to deal with, but it's still largely insignificant for those who wish to work around it.

#8 Berthold

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:10 PM

Little bit more data on 4.2 trinkets. I redid my analysis from http://elitistjerks....30/#post1938801
First of all, simcraft gives the same results as Hamlets Spreadsheet. BiS T12H is Heroic Focus (1st) and DMC (2nd). Heroic VPLC is close third.

BUT, and this is a huge but. We have two haste caps (2637 with NG + DI and 2776 without NG) when approaching the BiS 12H profile, so a list for the BiS T12H trinket would be false in almost any context as one trinket with a passive stat might be able to push you over one of the hastecaps and another will have a proc, thereby veiling the other trinkets power for other profiles. If you are reaching fireland heroics, you will need to sim your char for the right answer.

Instead, I am going to post a comparison based on the BiS T12N profile, which is not too close to any haste caps and also is what people will be focussing on.

http://5.chart.apis....&chts=dddddd,16

Bottom line is: Stick to your DMC, get a fiery quintessence as soon as you are revered with the Avengers. Upgrade that to Necromantic Focus and only exchange it for its heroic counterpart.

p.s. all the profiles can be found in the simcraft svn or with its next release.
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#9 Stommped

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:17 PM

Little bit more data on 4.2 trinkets. I redid my analysis from http://elitistjerks....30/#post1938801
First of all, simcraft gives the same results as Hamlets Spreadsheet. BiS T12H is HeroicFocus and DMC. Heroic VPLC is close third.
BUT, and this is a huge but. We have two haste caps (2637 for eclipse with DI and 2776 for non eclipsed)


Your chart shows that Heroic VPLC simmed higher than DMC: Volcano, and you did not really clarify as to why you declared DMC to be ahead of Heroic VPLC (since you stated that the haste on DMC would not be putting you over any haste cap).

Also your wording about the haste caps might be confusing to some, I assume you meant with and w/o Nature's Grace; but since it is possible to have NG expire while still in an Eclipse, or have the buff while you are outside of an Eclipse, it might be a little confusing.

#10 Berthold

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:33 PM

The chart shows the results for the 12N profile, where DMC does not get an additional bonus for reaching a haste cap.
The text above it was meant for the 12H profile, where DMC does get an additional bonus for reaching a haste cap, thereby being superior to Heroic VPLC.

I removed the heroic trinkets from the chart for clarification.
Thanks for the hint on Nature's Grace - reworded that section as well.
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#11 Zantaz

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:43 AM

I'd like to request a quick clarification, please.

With the changes to the 4T11 set bonus, are we still waiting to refresh MF / SunF until all 3 charges of Astral Alignment have been used, or is it better to revert to the 'old' strategy of refreshing them both once Eclipse has procced?

#12 Morve201

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:52 AM

Still keep the same strategy until you get rid of the t11, because 15% crit is still something :)

#13 MÃ nze

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 12:01 PM

p.s. all the profiles can be found in the simcraft svn or with its next release.


While T12N profile looks pretty solid, T12H seem to have some flaws. First of all the cloth belt from ragnaros, we all know ilvl is king, but its unlikely it would make up for 5% intloss from leather specialization, even if we upgrade from 378ish reputation belt to 397ish one. Secondly there is no indication that reputation items will be upgradable with firestones. So we wouldn't be able to use 391 version of reputation cloak either. I guess we might want to wait with all the simulation around the haste breakpoints untill 4.2 hits live and we exactly know which items are available.

p.s profiles I was refering to T12H T12N

#14 Berthold

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 04:31 PM

Minze, thanks for the hint on the waist slot. I could have sworn that this was a leather piece when I saw it first. Now using firescar sash (normal).
Regarding the back: The upgrade seems to be restricted to some VP items and BoE trash drops, so I changed it to Sinestra cape. Patch should be applied over the next 24h.
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#15 fountaiin

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 04:52 PM

Still keep the same strategy until you get rid of the t11, because 15% crit is still something :)


Errr, can anyone confirm this? I could see maybe your first cast because it's around 40% crit, but after that it just doesn't seem worth losing out on a dot tick or two at 35/30% crit.

#16 Berthold

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 05:03 PM

This was already discussed couple of days ago:
http://elitistjerks....32/#post1948135
Ignoring t11_4pc bonus gives ~500 dps gain.
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#17 jileen

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:04 AM

I've been testing the /cancelaura LS macro and it didn't work roughly 1/4 of the times, maybe this is just bad luck or because I run with a high latency in the PTR (last test was with 270ms).

On a side note, I wanted to clarify myself from the 4.1 thread, but since it's closed, I'll do here:
I talked about Rep rings being exclusive, but I mistook the rings, the ones that are exclusive are the valor rings, I don't know about rep rings.


Well, I've test this macro today.
/cancelaura lunar shower
/cast moonfire

And it works without any problem. So, how about put two MF on the bar? One is normal MF, and another is bind with cancelaura macro.

When we are not in eclipse, just cast normal MF. But if we have to move and don't wanna use energy ,or multiple-target situation , press the macro.

In this way we can choose MS, and use multi-dot without lose sun energy.

#18 Berthold

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:33 AM

Some improvements to single target dps:
-Cast Moonfire only during Eclipse
-Refresh IS/MF/SF as we are about to leave the respective eclipse as long as they have less than 10 seconds.

Gives a 100-200 dps bonus for 11H,12N,12H. Might not be suitable for lower haste values, but didn't check.
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#19 copialinex

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

Well, I've test this macro today.
/cancelaura lunar shower
/cast moonfire

And it works without any problem. So, how about put two MF on the bar? One is normal MF, and another is bind with cancelaura macro.

When we are not in eclipse, just cast normal MF. But if we have to move and don't wanna use energy ,or multiple-target situation , press the macro.

In this way we can choose MS, and use multi-dot without lose sun energy.


Lucky you!, I just tested it again and I got the same results.

Here's my energy changing even with the macro:
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#20 qae

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:44 PM

A /cancelaura macro certainly seems the way to go, however I doubt that Blizzard will let us exploit that for long if it becomes widely used. We all know it, but I guess it doesn't matter (for now)




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