Jump to content


Photo

[Balance] Cataclysm 4.2 Firelands (OLD)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
514 replies to this topic

#21 Zantaz

Zantaz

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 87 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:11 PM

Copialinex: Are you saying that /cancelaura Lunar Shower doesn't work to prevent you from gaining energy whilst in Eclipse?

#22 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:26 PM

A /cancelaura macro certainly seems the way to go, however I doubt that Blizzard will let us exploit that for long if it becomes widely used. We all know it, but I guess it doesn't matter (for now)


I'm pretty sure this was commented on quite a bit during beta. In any case, if it goes live this way we'll clearly use it if it turns out to be effective.

Remember that canceling LS isn't some kind of amazing exploit--it basically mimics the effect of not taking the talent at all. We've already discussed the virtues of dropping LS somewhat and it's not totally clear. Canceling the buff just allows you to go from one to the other within an encounter.

#23 copialinex

copialinex

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 05:44 PM

Copialinex: Are you saying that /cancelaura Lunar Shower doesn't work to prevent you from gaining energy whilst in Eclipse?

That's exactly what I'm saying, at least, not always. In the img I linked you can see the +8 energy from LS when I was spamming the macro (I dind't test it without spamming the macro, but I think the macro is pointless unless you need spamming MF). However, it can be like this because of the 270ms ping I have on PTR, we'll see in a few days.
BPT author.

#24 Weebins

Weebins

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:11 PM

Remember that canceling LS isn't some kind of amazing exploit--it basically mimics the effect of not taking the talent at all. We've already discussed the virtues of dropping LS somewhat and it's not totally clear. Canceling the buff just allows you to go from one to the other within an encounter.


I'm sure that Qae meant that it would be quite cumbersome, yet necessary to play our spec to the maximum (similar to rogues having to offhand switch back in the day for poison purposes) and our knowledge of Blizzard not being fond of over-complication. Having to have two slightly modified forms of the same spell on our bars is along those lines, to me anyways. That being said, I 100% anticipate a change, assuming that everything released is exactly what's on the PTR currently.

And as far as your macro having some issues (probably lag related), Copialinex, did you try putting the /cancelaura on the back end of the macro too? I'll admit that I'm not advanced when it comes to making macros, but it seems like putting the /cancelaura on the back end as well as the front end might give you better results in a high latency scenario. Just a thought.

*edit* After looking at your macro again, I'm not sure what the last line is. I don't speak Spanish, but what is the purpose of the /dump at the end?

#25 copialinex

copialinex

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 06:45 PM

I'm sure that Qae meant that it would be quite cumbersome, yet necessary to play our spec to the maximum (similar to rogues having to offhand switch back in the day for poison purposes) and our knowledge of Blizzard not being fond of over-complication. Having to have two slightly modified forms of the same spell on our bars is along those lines, to me anyways. That being said, I 100% anticipate a change, assuming that everything released is exactly what's on the PTR currently.

And as far as your macro having some issues (probably lag related), Copialinex, did you try putting the /cancelaura on the back end of the macro too? I'll admit that I'm not advanced when it comes to making macros, but it seems like putting the /cancelaura on the back end as well as the front end might give you better results in a high latency scenario. Just a thought.

*edit* After looking at your macro again, I'm not sure what the last line is. I don't speak Spanish, but what is the purpose of the /dump at the end?


I tried with all posibilities (/cast before /cancelaura, /cancelaura before /cast and /cast between two /cancelauras), the one that gave me the best (empirically) results was /cancelaura before /cast.
/dump allows me to run some lua code and print its results in the chat (/dump function = /run print(function) ) that line only prints me the info from LS buff (Lluvia lunar in Spanish), it's there because I forgot to remove it after I tried to track down why only sometimes I got the energy.
BPT author.

#26 qae

qae

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:05 AM

Remember that canceling LS isn't some kind of amazing exploit--it basically mimics the effect of not taking the talent at all. We've already discussed the virtues of dropping LS somewhat and it's not totally clear. Canceling the buff just allows you to go from one to the other within an encounter.


I'm well aware of that :) It's just my feeling that Blizzard didn't implement the new LS system only for us to find a - more or less - convenient way around it. I'm actually surprised they didn't make the talent mandatory one way or another over the course of the beta. Again, I'm perfectly ok with the use of a cancelaura macro if it allows me to get full use of the new benefit of LS, while ignoring most of the drawbacks, but it feels dirty and unintended.

#27 Narwhal6

Narwhal6

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:46 PM

I've been playing around with the new 4piece revamp for tier 11 and I'm really unhappy about it. The Astral Alignment buff still lasts the same duration making the buff drop off you while having stacks of it still up (I even have several times where I had 3 stacks still!).

With the current firelands off pieces having extremely healthy amounts of haste, wouldn't it be worth it to immediately break the t11 4p to pick up some off pieces while we farm up for t12 2p?

I also want to lean towards breaking the 4piece early because it will smooth out or rotation as well. We'll get to line up better lunar Starfalls and have better uptime on Moonfire since we are dropping the Starfire glyph for Wrath.

Just my thoughts...

#28 Blv

Blv

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 02:20 AM

just spam /cancelaura Lunar Shower in the gcds, or put it also on IS and alternate back and forth between moonfire n IS

#29 Zilulil

Zilulil

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:11 AM

Starfall seems to have reverted to naxx behavior and is killing critters and aggroing everything in the 40yd radius.

Edit: While farming trash in the firelands raid it was shooting the critters that wander around and pulled a pack of turtles on us once. After that I stopped using it.

Edit2: It seems to work properly outside of the firelands raid.

#30 ktoth04

ktoth04

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:53 AM

Starfall - Stars will only hit enemies that have a target or are under 100% HP.


Did they change the way starfall pulls? Because i had it pull the gators in ZG today which are full health, not in combat, etc. Tried a couple of other places in the instance and had similar problems. So, broken/changed or am I crazy?

#31 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:13 AM

I've heard other people say the same thing. But I just walked up to an outdoor mob and activated Starfall and it didn't shoot it. So I don't know offhand.

e: Now I did have it happen in an instance--does seem like something is up here.

#32 copialinex

copialinex

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:40 PM

I tried with all posibilities (/cast before /cancelaura, /cancelaura before /cast and /cast between two /cancelauras), the one that gave me the best (empirically) results was /cancelaura before /cast.
/dump allows me to run some lua code and print its results in the chat (/dump function = /run print(function) ) that line only prints me the info from LS buff (Lluvia lunar in Spanish), it's there because I forgot to remove it after I tried to track down why only sometimes I got the energy.


Well, After a bit of testing on live, I can say it was my latency issues that prevented /cancelaura from working propperly. I'm sorry about the misinformation.
BPT author.

#33 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 04:54 PM

I raided every boss with Lunar Shower yesterday. Maybe there were a few places I could have benefited from a /cancelaura macro, but probably not many. At what fights do you need to extend Solar indefinitely and multi-dot things?

The only AoE packs are on Beth'tilac (downstairs), Rhyolith, and Ragnaros. All of them are very short-lived, certainly not longer than a full DoT duration. In my case I rarely DoTed any of the above at all because they died too quickly to bother. And all fights have quite a bit of movement, encouraging me to want to keep the talent.

If the asymmetry of the energy gain was fixed, I'd have very few issues with Lunar Shower so far. That's currently the only hangup--I get annoyed when I have to move and it happens to be in pre-Lunar. It would also be nice if the amount of energy gain depended on the stack height, so I wouldn't get penalized the full 8 energy just for reapplying DoT's to two targets.

#34 Guest_aceofsween_*

Guest_aceofsween_*
  • Guests

Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:05 PM

It would also be nice if the amount of energy gain depended on the stack height, so I wouldn't get penalized the full 8 energy just for reapplying DoT's to two targets.


You could always twist your DoT applications a little bit in those cases. An order of MF, IS, IS, MF should be enough to avoid that completely if we're only talking about 2 targets, assuming you're not moving.

#35 Stommped

Stommped

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:03 PM

My take on Lunar Shower yesterday (We only cleared 5/7):

Shannox: It seems worth it to roll dots on all 3 targets, and there is not much movement required, i.e. 1 sidestep is easy enough to avoid a trap. So the talent really seems to be more harmful than anything here (wasting energy if you wanna have an easy job of keeping dots on all 3 targets).

Rhyolith: Movement isn't too severe here, but the increased DD from Moonfire would probably ultimately be more beneficial for hitting the small adds in between Detonates. You can't really multi-dot here as the the littles ones don't live long enough so that only leaves the spark (as dotting the legs can only hurt your raid).

Beth'tilac: This one is really up in the air for me. There is virtually no movement whatsoever, and up to 7-8 spinners can drop down, combined with a drone provides a very hefty amount of multi-dotting opportunities, and you would surely burn through most of your Eclipse dotting them all if you have LS. However, the small spiders must die ASAP, so with WM, typhoon, and Starfall all down, I found myself really missing the extra DD from Moonfire.

Alysrazor: The LS killer. Absolutely no reason whatsoever to be specced into LS for this fight. Not only is extremely beneficial to multi dot both hatchlings and the Druids, but you have the movement buff that allows you to cast while moving. It's 100% a DPS loss to be specced into LS for this fight, unless you are extremely careful with your multi dotting to not waste energy, but why even worry about that?

Baleroc: Very "Patchwerkesque" fight. There is nothing to multi dot, but there is also very, very little movement if your guild does this properly. You shouldn't really see any effect of being specced into or out of Lunar Shower for this fight.

Staghelm: We killed him on PTR so Im basing off that. Not much movement (only spreading and stacking if you are lucky enough to not be targeted by his abilities), but there is also only multi dotting possibilities on the cat phase. Again not specced into LS would probably only make this phase easier for you, and I didn't see enough movement to warrant moonfiring 3-4 times to build some energy towards Solar.

Ragnaros: From videos and bugged PTR testing - There is heavy movement, and also adds with low hp which favors the DD buff from LS. Also you will likely only be multi dotting 1-2 Scion's in phase 3, so I see no reason not to have LS for this boss.

In short much of this might be a moot point as these are all normal modes. Generally, movement will only increase in Heroic modes, allowing us to see an increased benefit from LS. Personally, I think I will be using my dual specs for 1 with LS, and 1 without.

#36 Megasandwich

Megasandwich

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:10 PM

My take on Lunar Shower yesterday (We only cleared 5/7):

Shannox: It seems worth it to roll dots on all 3 targets, and there is not much movement required, i.e. 1 sidestep is easy enough to avoid a trap. So the talent really seems to be more harmful than anything here (wasting energy if you wanna have an easy job of keeping dots on all 3 targets).

Rhyolith: Movement isn't too severe here, but the increased DD from Moonfire would probably ultimately be more beneficial for hitting the small adds in between Detonates. You can't really multi-dot here as the the littles ones don't live long enough so that only leaves the spark (as dotting the legs can only hurt your raid).

Beth'tilac: This one is really up in the air for me. There is virtually no movement whatsoever, and up to 7-8 spinners can drop down, combined with a drone provides a very hefty amount of multi-dotting opportunities, and you would surely burn through most of your Eclipse dotting them all if you have LS. However, the small spiders must die ASAP, so with WM, typhoon, and Starfall all down, I found myself really missing the extra DD from Moonfire.

Alysrazor: The LS killer. Absolutely no reason whatsoever to be specced into LS for this fight. Not only is extremely beneficial to multi dot both hatchlings and the Druids, but you have the movement buff that allows you to cast while moving. It's 100% a DPS loss to be specced into LS for this fight, unless you are extremely careful with your multi dotting to not waste energy, but why even worry about that?

Baleroc: Very "Patchwerkesque" fight. There is nothing to multi dot, but there is also very, very little movement if your guild does this properly. You shouldn't really see any effect of being specced into or out of Lunar Shower for this fight.

Staghelm: We killed him on PTR so Im basing off that. Not much movement (only spreading and stacking if you are lucky enough to not be targeted by his abilities), but there is also only multi dotting possibilities on the cat phase. Again not specced into LS would probably only make this phase easier for you, and I didn't see enough movement to warrant moonfiring 3-4 times to build some energy towards Solar.

Ragnaros: From videos and bugged PTR testing - There is heavy movement, and also adds with low hp which favors the DD buff from LS. Also you will likely only be multi dotting 1-2 Scion's in phase 3, so I see no reason not to have LS for this boss.

In short much of this might be a moot point as these are all normal modes. Generally, movement will only increase in Heroic modes, allowing us to see an increased benefit from LS. Personally, I think I will be using my dual specs for 1 with LS, and 1 without.


Based on these observations, of going w/ and without lunar shower ( Not that there are really any other dmg talents to pick up), As previously mentioned why not just make 2 MF's, one w/ Cancel aura macro and 1 without, therefore you have the best of both situations? Granted I see your views of some fights just simply not needing it at all, but I still find that a tad overkill, at some point on all fights youre going to move, so I just cant see dropping the talent, imo.

#37 Smartiepants

Smartiepants

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 07:41 PM

I did 6/7 with LS yesterday and found the energy to be rather negligible in the long scheme of things. I would say Hamlet is pretty spot on. With testing pre raid and on trash I found the cancelaura to be quite unreliable. If they would only make symmetrical gains we would be fine. A poweraura of the buff and dropping mushrooms in was what I found to be most effective. Talking prior about saving SS procs for movement was enough. I did find eclipse planning to be very difficult as aoe phases are awkwardly timed (I couldn't push back and forth between solar fast enough).

#38 Weebins

Weebins

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:03 PM

I don't think I've seen this anywhere before but:

Has anyone run the numbers of using energy for LS'ed MF/SnF vs nukes? Since the energy gains aren't linear with the buff, I would think that having only 1-2 stacks of LS is inefficient while 3 might be closer. For me, it seems the bigger decision for having LS wouldn't be movement dps, but overall dps. I'd like to see how the Damage per Energy of our spells stacks up.

#39 Zilulil

Zilulil

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 09:37 PM

You could always twist your DoT applications a little bit in those cases. An order of MF, IS, IS, MF should be enough to avoid that completely if we're only talking about 2 targets, assuming you're not moving.


You can move all you want. They appear to have changed lunar shower to only stack/refresh when you cast moonfire rather than on movement.

#40 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 960 posts

Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:06 PM

I don't think I've seen this anywhere before but:

Has anyone run the numbers of using energy for LS'ed MF/SnF vs nukes? Since the energy gains aren't linear with the buff, I would think that having only 1-2 stacks of LS is inefficient while 3 might be closer. For me, it seems the bigger decision for having LS wouldn't be movement dps, but overall dps. I'd like to see how the Damage per Energy of our spells stacks up.


It isn't close. In the same Eclipse state, SF does ~3.2x LS3 DD, for 2.5x energy. SF also has >150% DPS. Use MF to apply (or refresh) the DoT, or for movement. Use a nuke when movement/kick/mana allow.

In Eclipse, your off-nuke does >= DPS than LS3 DD, and burns no energy.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users