[Balance] Cataclysm 4.2 Firelands (OLD)
Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:24 PM
Also, it's not that clear-cut on DPE of MF vs. Starfire. If you include tick of MF DoT (or even half a tick) with the MF, it exceeds 40% of the damage of a Starfire. And on average a Moonfire refresh should add at least half a tick of DoT, since it's at least one GCD later than the previous cast (obviously spamming MF is worse than casting a few nukes and then clipping MF only once, but if you're moving you don't get to do the latter). Point here is that you still don't want to burn energy on Moonfire when nukes are an option, but when you're moving, MF doesn't use it up all that inefficiently. The problem with MF while moving isn't energy wastage, it's just lower present DPS.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:53 AM
I don't think it's accurate to model the value of the moonfire refresh at the damage of the dot. I think the proper model is (dot extension time/total dot time) x (dot cast time/filler cast time) x (filler damage), which works out to a heck of a lot less than half a tick of moonfire for a 1 GCD extension. Obviously eclipse complicates the real effect a lot.
The refresh on movement thing never really made a lot of sense to me, but it was also the only reason I could see why it would need to stack to 3 to get to full strength. Actually, it doesn't seem like it would be a real problem to just fold the 3 stack of LS into the base of moonfire. Slight patchwork nerf while avoiding neutering our movement dps, not that we need any kind of nerf to our stand and nuke dps.
P.S. This change is a huge nerf to my questing/soloing/TK run power where I used LS a lot.
P.P.S. There's definitely some additional delay after the debuff wears off where the energy gain still applies making MF, IS, IS, MF give energy sometimes.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:38 AM
I played with the 2 buttons tonight in raid. One for cancelaura LS and and the other for no cancelaura. I just never felt like using the non-cancelaura button (and the cancelaura macro worked flawlessly as far as I saw)
I believe there might be some niche uses for it, so I'm not specing out of it yet.. But really when I'm in movement, 2 things happens :
1. I have an eclipsed Dot on target, and I'm no longer in Eclipse -> I won't cast a non-eclipsed Dot, LS or not.
2. I have a Dot on target, and I'm in Eclipse -> I will refresh the Dot, I don't care about LS and I don't want to spend energy refreshing it.
Of course there is the rare, and dreaded :
3. I have a non-eclipsed Dot (or a nearly ending Eclipsed Dot) on target, and I'm not in eclipse -> All right time to use LS!
But really most of the time I am in situation 1. or 2., and LS gives me nothing. Now I'm just starting Firelands and I may find that for some encounters I will be running non-stop for more than 6 gcd, thus allowing LS to shine.. We shall see.
For now I will try using Shooting star procs when moving (since it's not much of a dps boost while standing still) and refreshing dots when possible.
And for heavy aoe, perma-Solar, multidotting and shrooms, Starfire when nothing better to do seems to do fine with the +23% dmg on Starfire.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:45 AM
My biggest beef with the rotation was the planning of eclipses (solar) to coincide with aoe phases. While that was hard pre 4.2, we at least had some wiggle room, as we could hit solar, continue nuking the boss until adds spawned. If we were on 100 energy or 5 didnt matter, now we have to save energy for multidotting and cannot switch to the adds on 5 energy. It seems like the planning just got harder for boomkins.
And I know there are work arounds, like not choosing the talent or making macros and having multiple versions of one spell on the bars. But we shouldn't have to sacrifice a good talent with no obvious alternatives, and the /cancelaura macro will surely be dealt with.
I am all for complexity, it just seems like the boomkin rotation is complex because it's broken.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:12 AM
I was going through my own parse and I noticed something really interesting. On Bethilac I had consistently had over 50% uptime on owlkin frenzy, as high as 75% on some of the wipes learning, then back down to 50% with the full burn phase, so that fight alone is a huge benefit from the talent. I had to check because it felt like I had a really high uptime on it all night but going through logs only Beth was super high, with some higher numbers on Rhyolith from a few parses that people had grabbed aggro on adds before tanks had them locked down.
I kept LS for tonight and probably the rest of the week just to see how it ends up working out. So far it seems more of a hinderance to me than anything else, I had a couple opportunities to throw LS'd mf's out to get into solar elicpse off adds on beth but it feels like for anything but squeaking in a last second energy gain while having to run somewhere it just got in my way. It also made me extremely reluctant to even use SS procs during solar for fear of not being able to AOE at all =/
Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:59 PM
Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:56 PM
Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:10 PM
Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:03 PM
I ran 6/7 with two PvE specs - one with LS and one without. The only fight I thought felt better having chosen LS was Rhyolith. Else, I preferred the fights without LS. My parses were fairly solid (near full 272) and can be viewed on WoL.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:09 PM
It's just my feeling that Blizzard didn't implement the new LS system only for us to find a - more or less - convenient way around it.
It's not a way around it. You still have to make a choice between increasing your time in eclipse to benefit from your mastery or benefiting from the Lunar Shower buff's damage.
I've heard other people say the same thing. But I just walked up to an outdoor mob and activated Starfall and it didn't shoot it. So I don't know offhand.
I never had the changes to Starfall work in an instance. They worked outside while doing dailies at Tol Barad, but as soon as I was in a raid or dungeon Starfall would aggro all bears.
I think Owlkin Frenzy is undervalued in the OP. With the plethora of talent points we have available and the decent amount of procs we're receiving in Firelands, I think it should be seen as significantly more valuable than in t11 if just for the lack of alternatives.
From what I've seen, no one will be having mana issues in T12 unless they are horribly undergeared or are using Hurricane without Clearcasting, and the only alternatives are Fungal Growth or dropping a point in Perseverance / Blessing of the Grove (depending how you've spec'ed in the Resto tree). It's definitely a valuable talent.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:24 PM
The LS discussion is interesting. I've been maintaining that the new drawback isn't so bad. If the pre-Solar issue were fixed, it may still be more helpful than hurtful. But what I'm realizing reading posts more is that the benefit of LS just isn't that great to begin with.
Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much. Each 3-stack Moonfire only gets about 5000 damage from the LS talent, and if you only do that a couple times in a fight, then it's just not very much. I mean, to even live up to the 1%/point rubric for DPS talents, you have to get almost 1000 DPS from Lunar Shower, and that requires making use of it almost every 5 seconds, which pretty much never happens.
Last tier we didn't think about this too hard, since there was nowhere good to put the points anyway, and there were fights like Maloriak/Atramedes/Council where you clearly wanted it. But now that the talent does have a drawback, and we make use of Gale Winds more often, and Owlkin Frenzy might be better filler anyway, I can understand the eagerness to drop it a bit more. It just doesn't really add much damage except for certain specific fights where you have to move quite a lot (so far, maybe Ragnaros).
In short--we took LS last tier because there was no reason not to, but it's kind of a crutch in some ways. We should be practicing encounters so as to minimize movement anyway, and when we do have to move, the damage we get from LS is usually not even that impressive. After thinking about this more, I can see coming around to people who are dropping the talent. It has less to do with the energy drawback and just as much to do with it not being all that strong to begin with.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:32 PM
Gale Winds: seems to be useful at Rhyolith and Ragnaros (both have short-lived add packs where you have to do something between WM's, but they don't live long enough for DoT's to be great). Maybe Beth'tilac--a bit awkward since the Spiderlings are moving, but a glyphed Hurricane snare might actually be a nice way to deal with them.
Dreamstate: still only needed if you really Hurricane quite a lot and/or Moonfire spam without LS, but I don't think there's too much reason to be doing either.
Fungal Growth: Can't think of much, actually. Only Beth'tilac adds, if there's no other snare on them (and it's still not a great solution, since it's hard to make good use of both the damage and the snare from WM). Might be able to go without this tier.
Owlkin Frenzy: as discussed, might be a common filler talent--we should start trying to make a list of things that proc it.
Looking at the tree overall, if you want to give up Lunar Shower, you still need to take either Dreamstate or Fungal Growth. I guess I'd favor FG for now since I think some Heroics will make it more useful (Rhyolith or maybe Beth'tilac) and I really can't think of much use for Dreamstate. That leaves something like this:
WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.
Only complication being that you probably still want Lunar Shower for Ragnaros.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:40 PM
I agree that Dreamstate shouldn't be needed. Between WM and Typhoon I almost always have Clearcasting when it's time for a Hurricane, anyway. I'd probably go for this: WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.
Also, I find it hard to believe that any theory crafting tool is accurate if it's telling me Heroic Signet of the Fifth Circle is better than Infernal Signet of the Avenger. Is that the case, or is this item just not making it into the comparison somehow?
Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:56 PM
41% damage reduction with barkskin up without any external cooldowns is pretty nice. Obviously you already incorporated this in your mock talent tree, but I wanted to call attention to it.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:25 PM
Don't really understand why people like LS so much for Ryolith. We did 5 bosses in Firelands, and I have tried both specs, but dropping LS seemed to be benefitial for me in Ryolith due to many adds. But I might be completely wrong. For my first time in WoW ever, I'm actually confused how to dps optimal sometimes.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:14 PM
Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much.
Not sure if by beta you mean Cataclysm beta or 4.2 PTR, but the reason why LS was so good pre-4.2 was that it ramped up based on movement, instead of number of MF casts as is the case right now. This made a major difference because pre-4.2 it was possible to get the maximum effect with only 1 MF, assuming you kept moving. This talent has changed in 2 negative ways: first of all it now generates energy, which is the obvious drawback we are all discussing; and second, and maybe more importantly, its ramp up time is now a lot longer. One change only would have this talent still usable. The combination of changes makes it really lackluster, to the point that pretty much everybody is going to drop it.
As for replacement talents, already in pre-4.2 I felt that 3/3 Perseverance and 3/3 Owlkin Frenzy were, if not mandatory strictly speaking, at least the talents that provided the most "bang for the buck". That left us with at least 2 points to spend in the Balance Tree, and another point elsewhere (typically Solar Beam for utility + either 2/2 FG or Gale Winds).
Dropping LS on top of that means speccing FG + Gale Winds + Solar Beam (since we need those points to max out the Balance Tree, and the only other possibilities being Dreamstate or Moonglow, both of which we don't really need). That also leaves an extra point, which at this stage I'd be tempted to spend in the feral tree, either in Feral Swiftness (15% faster movement in cat form is always nice) or Furor (more mana + a chance to use Skull Bash). We're definitely running out of interesting talents.
Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:25 PM
Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:09 AM
Posted 01 July 2011 - 03:02 AM
As Hamlet pointed out, it was not that great a talent to begin with, even if it had some nice uses. It did help with mobility and eclipse management, but also allowed for a gimmicky gameplay (Sunfire spamm) that was probably performing too well (especially in pvp and in pve encounters with 2+ targets).
With increased Mastery scores, the incent to stay in the most powerfull eclipse (Solar) would probably only increase with gear and I understand why they wanted to put a stop to it.
However having such a huge damage boost while in eclipse is probably going to push us into gimmicks more and more. As of now, I don't have the best gear available but I already do 53% more damage in eclipse (without Theralion's mirror proc). If Blizzard doesn't balance out of eclipse damage et eclipsed damage a little, I'm afraid we won't be willing to bounce back and forth between eclipse - which is supposed to be the design - in a lot of situations if we can figure a way to stay in Solar for extended periods of time just to be able to AOE things comfortably.
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