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[Balance] Cataclysm 4.2 Firelands (OLD)


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#41 Hamlet

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:24 PM

Although outside of Eclipse, the energy per second of MF spam is pretty close, so if you can work things out that you get your movement done outside Eclipse, that turns out very nicely. As usual, this would work out better if it weren't disabled 50% of the time.

Also, it's not that clear-cut on DPE of MF vs. Starfire. If you include tick of MF DoT (or even half a tick) with the MF, it exceeds 40% of the damage of a Starfire. And on average a Moonfire refresh should add at least half a tick of DoT, since it's at least one GCD later than the previous cast (obviously spamming MF is worse than casting a few nukes and then clipping MF only once, but if you're moving you don't get to do the latter). Point here is that you still don't want to burn energy on Moonfire when nukes are an option, but when you're moving, MF doesn't use it up all that inefficiently. The problem with MF while moving isn't energy wastage, it's just lower present DPS.

#42 Videl

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:53 AM

I'm actually having more of a problem with the removal of stacking on movement than the small amount of energy lost. At 2 targets I can MF, IS, IS, MF or just eat the 8 energy penalty and 3 or more I can cycle with mushroom. On the other hand, assuming I'm refreshing IS when I move LS isn't at full strength until my 5th GCD, or about 6.5s which is about 50 yards. Not many fights (any?) have uninterrupted movement that lasts that long, and even at that point the average LS buff on my moonfire DDs is still just 68%, or about 8100 damage over 4 moonfires at a cost of 24 energy (obviously it starts to get better after that, but is worse before) obviously fillers would do more than that with the energy. I'd say on average a lot more LS energy expenditures occur during eclipse than out of it, not just because of the 1 sided thing but also because uneclipsed dots are so pathetic. On the whole I don't feel like LS is causing a lot of problems, but it's hovering somewhere awful close to no net effect on DPS in its current state. Luckily that's also approximately the effect of any other talent I could spend those points on so its kind of not worth worrying about.

I don't think it's accurate to model the value of the moonfire refresh at the damage of the dot. I think the proper model is (dot extension time/total dot time) x (dot cast time/filler cast time) x (filler damage), which works out to a heck of a lot less than half a tick of moonfire for a 1 GCD extension. Obviously eclipse complicates the real effect a lot.

The refresh on movement thing never really made a lot of sense to me, but it was also the only reason I could see why it would need to stack to 3 to get to full strength. Actually, it doesn't seem like it would be a real problem to just fold the 3 stack of LS into the base of moonfire. Slight patchwork nerf while avoiding neutering our movement dps, not that we need any kind of nerf to our stand and nuke dps.

P.S. This change is a huge nerf to my questing/soloing/TK run power where I used LS a lot.

P.P.S. There's definitely some additional delay after the debuff wears off where the energy gain still applies making MF, IS, IS, MF give energy sometimes.

#43 qae

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:38 AM

I also think that no longer beeing able to stack LS with movement is a bad thing. You have to cast a 2nd and a 3rd Moonfire/Sunfire before you get full stack, when in 4.1 you could just cast Moonfire/Sunfire + moving while casting one IS and end up with 3 stacks for your 2nd Moonfire. And since you start using energy at 1 stack, that is basically 2 "weak" and costly DD Moonfire/Sunfire ( and by the time you get to 2 stacks you will most likely no longer have to move).

I played with the 2 buttons tonight in raid. One for cancelaura LS and and the other for no cancelaura. I just never felt like using the non-cancelaura button (and the cancelaura macro worked flawlessly as far as I saw)
I believe there might be some niche uses for it, so I'm not specing out of it yet.. But really when I'm in movement, 2 things happens :

1. I have an eclipsed Dot on target, and I'm no longer in Eclipse -> I won't cast a non-eclipsed Dot, LS or not.


2. I have a Dot on target, and I'm in Eclipse -> I will refresh the Dot, I don't care about LS and I don't want to spend energy refreshing it.


Of course there is the rare, and dreaded :

3. I have a non-eclipsed Dot (or a nearly ending Eclipsed Dot) on target, and I'm not in eclipse -> All right time to use LS!


But really most of the time I am in situation 1. or 2., and LS gives me nothing. Now I'm just starting Firelands and I may find that for some encounters I will be running non-stop for more than 6 gcd, thus allowing LS to shine.. We shall see.
For now I will try using Shooting star procs when moving (since it's not much of a dps boost while standing still) and refreshing dots when possible.
And for heavy aoe, perma-Solar, multidotting and shrooms, Starfire when nothing better to do seems to do fine with the +23% dmg on Starfire.

#44 jelbic

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:45 AM

Before the LS changes, balance was widely regarded as the hardest dps spec to maximize. LS changes are mentioned and I silently hope the changes will make LS unviable for PVE (moving unless my feet are on fire just seems wrong to me). However it seems the LS changes have only succeeded in making an already cumbersome rotation even more cumbersome.

My biggest beef with the rotation was the planning of eclipses (solar) to coincide with aoe phases. While that was hard pre 4.2, we at least had some wiggle room, as we could hit solar, continue nuking the boss until adds spawned. If we were on 100 energy or 5 didnt matter, now we have to save energy for multidotting and cannot switch to the adds on 5 energy. It seems like the planning just got harder for boomkins.

And I know there are work arounds, like not choosing the talent or making macros and having multiple versions of one spell on the bars. But we shouldn't have to sacrifice a good talent with no obvious alternatives, and the /cancelaura macro will surely be dealt with.

I am all for complexity, it just seems like the boomkin rotation is complex because it's broken.

#45 Reddayspring

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:12 AM

Trying to parse through a lot of the WoL stuff from the first couple nights, it looks like there are a decent mix of moonkin putting up top numbers with and without LS and having durations on LS that might indicate not using /cancelaura's.

I was going through my own parse and I noticed something really interesting. On Bethilac I had consistently had over 50% uptime on owlkin frenzy, as high as 75% on some of the wipes learning, then back down to 50% with the full burn phase, so that fight alone is a huge benefit from the talent. I had to check because it felt like I had a really high uptime on it all night but going through logs only Beth was super high, with some higher numbers on Rhyolith from a few parses that people had grabbed aggro on adds before tanks had them locked down.

I kept LS for tonight and probably the rest of the week just to see how it ends up working out. So far it seems more of a hinderance to me than anything else, I had a couple opportunities to throw LS'd mf's out to get into solar elicpse off adds on beth but it feels like for anything but squeaking in a last second energy gain while having to run somewhere it just got in my way. It also made me extremely reluctant to even use SS procs during solar for fear of not being able to AOE at all =/

#46 Consca

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:59 PM

after the server restart my /cancelaura macro isn't working. anyone has a different experience or can we conclude that blizzard decided to hotfix it one day after patch went live?

#47 Smartiepants

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:56 PM

Having now done 7/7 25. I think I'll be dropping the talent next week. Looking through my logs I found that it was a very marginal dps "adder" of times where I landed LS moonfires. Due to the new stacking of the LS buff requiring multiple casts it rarely reached 3 stacks. Saving SS procs and using mushrooms or refreshing IS during movement seems like adequate filler unless movement becomes much more intense on heroics.

#48 Guest_aceofsween_*

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:10 PM

It's quite possible that the talents drawbacks and bonuses are simply a wash and ultimately factor very little into the grand scheme of things. In fact, based on reports of what people are seeing, that appears to be exactly the case. Therefore, it's really a personal preference at this point. I'm not sure that jives with the "meaningful decisions" model they've been pushing for talents, but it does appear to be the reality of the situation.

#49 dreslav

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:03 PM

I think Owlkin Frenzy is undervalued in the OP. With the plethora of talent points we have available and the decent amount of procs we're receiving in Firelands, I think it should be seen as significantly more valuable than in t11 if just for the lack of alternatives. Beth uptime for OF was crazy good.

I ran 6/7 with two PvE specs - one with LS and one without. The only fight I thought felt better having chosen LS was Rhyolith. Else, I preferred the fights without LS. My parses were fairly solid (near full 272) and can be viewed on WoL.

#50 Larethorn

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:09 PM

It's just my feeling that Blizzard didn't implement the new LS system only for us to find a - more or less - convenient way around it.


It's not a way around it. You still have to make a choice between increasing your time in eclipse to benefit from your mastery or benefiting from the Lunar Shower buff's damage.


I've heard other people say the same thing. But I just walked up to an outdoor mob and activated Starfall and it didn't shoot it. So I don't know offhand.


I never had the changes to Starfall work in an instance. They worked outside while doing dailies at Tol Barad, but as soon as I was in a raid or dungeon Starfall would aggro all bears.


I think Owlkin Frenzy is undervalued in the OP. With the plethora of talent points we have available and the decent amount of procs we're receiving in Firelands, I think it should be seen as significantly more valuable than in t11 if just for the lack of alternatives.


From what I've seen, no one will be having mana issues in T12 unless they are horribly undergeared or are using Hurricane without Clearcasting, and the only alternatives are Fungal Growth or dropping a point in Perseverance / Blessing of the Grove (depending how you've spec'ed in the Resto tree). It's definitely a valuable talent.

#51 Hamlet

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:24 PM

Yeah, looks like you can no longer manually cancel Lunar Shower on live.

The LS discussion is interesting. I've been maintaining that the new drawback isn't so bad. If the pre-Solar issue were fixed, it may still be more helpful than hurtful. But what I'm realizing reading posts more is that the benefit of LS just isn't that great to begin with.

Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much. Each 3-stack Moonfire only gets about 5000 damage from the LS talent, and if you only do that a couple times in a fight, then it's just not very much. I mean, to even live up to the 1%/point rubric for DPS talents, you have to get almost 1000 DPS from Lunar Shower, and that requires making use of it almost every 5 seconds, which pretty much never happens.

Last tier we didn't think about this too hard, since there was nowhere good to put the points anyway, and there were fights like Maloriak/Atramedes/Council where you clearly wanted it. But now that the talent does have a drawback, and we make use of Gale Winds more often, and Owlkin Frenzy might be better filler anyway, I can understand the eagerness to drop it a bit more. It just doesn't really add much damage except for certain specific fights where you have to move quite a lot (so far, maybe Ragnaros).

In short--we took LS last tier because there was no reason not to, but it's kind of a crutch in some ways. We should be practicing encounters so as to minimize movement anyway, and when we do have to move, the damage we get from LS is usually not even that impressive. After thinking about this more, I can see coming around to people who are dropping the talent. It has less to do with the energy drawback and just as much to do with it not being all that strong to begin with.

#52 Hamlet

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:32 PM

Continuing thoughts from before--so what utility talents do we wind up wanting this tier?

Gale Winds: seems to be useful at Rhyolith and Ragnaros (both have short-lived add packs where you have to do something between WM's, but they don't live long enough for DoT's to be great). Maybe Beth'tilac--a bit awkward since the Spiderlings are moving, but a glyphed Hurricane snare might actually be a nice way to deal with them.

Dreamstate: still only needed if you really Hurricane quite a lot and/or Moonfire spam without LS, but I don't think there's too much reason to be doing either.

Fungal Growth: Can't think of much, actually. Only Beth'tilac adds, if there's no other snare on them (and it's still not a great solution, since it's hard to make good use of both the damage and the snare from WM). Might be able to go without this tier.

Owlkin Frenzy: as discussed, might be a common filler talent--we should start trying to make a list of things that proc it.

Looking at the tree overall, if you want to give up Lunar Shower, you still need to take either Dreamstate or Fungal Growth. I guess I'd favor FG for now since I think some Heroics will make it more useful (Rhyolith or maybe Beth'tilac) and I really can't think of much use for Dreamstate. That leaves something like this:
WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.
Only complication being that you probably still want Lunar Shower for Ragnaros.

#53 Larethorn

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:40 PM

Given it's situational nature, it's difficult to quantify the value of LS in its current state. Having Lunar Shower active effectively reduces the value of Mastery, but it's also important to consider that as the amount of Mastery we have increases the value of LS decreases, making LS look less and less desirable. The best way to come up with objective figures may be to look at lunar/solar power as a resource and get a value in terms of damage per lunar/solar power point instead of damage per second. Unfortunately, even that feels almost impossible unless you're analyzing a specific scenario. The casting cost benefit also needs to be accounted for.

I agree that Dreamstate shouldn't be needed. Between WM and Typhoon I almost always have Clearcasting when it's time for a Hurricane, anyway. I'd probably go for this: WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie.

Also, I find it hard to believe that any theory crafting tool is accurate if it's telling me Heroic Signet of the Fifth Circle is better than Infernal Signet of the Avenger. Is that the case, or is this item just not making it into the comparison somehow?

#54 dreslav

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:56 PM

Hamlet - Perseverance has gone up in priority significantly for utility talents now that Blessing of the Grove is utterly worthless. There are no remaining dps talents, mana regen isn't a concern, leaving survivability as the next major concern for a high end raider. I did try fungal growth on the first night in Firelands but it's unreliable and destroys WM dmg if you use the talent for slowing purposes. Dreamstate... well, I innervated myself one time the whole night. Why not put the points to use in something that will actually be used in every fight?

41% damage reduction with barkskin up without any external cooldowns is pretty nice. Obviously you already incorporated this in your mock talent tree, but I wanted to call attention to it.

#55 Hamlet

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:12 PM

I think DR effects all stack multiplicatively, but I don't know if I've ever actually tested with Perseverance.

#56 Mysticum

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:25 PM

Quick question: Is Dreamstate always better than Moonglow even point for point in T11-gear? Haven't really seen this question in a long time, and if I'm remembering correct there was a point where it would be benefitial to add points in them both instead of filling them.

Don't really understand why people like LS so much for Ryolith. We did 5 bosses in Firelands, and I have tried both specs, but dropping LS seemed to be benefitial for me in Ryolith due to many adds. But I might be completely wrong. For my first time in WoW ever, I'm actually confused how to dps optimal sometimes.

#57 anathor

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:14 PM

Maybe we should have thought about this more even before 4.2, but you don't move for 3+ consecutive seconds all that often. LS seemed like a really big deal in beta since were imagining running around while still doing decent DPS and it sounded great, but the reality is that in raid content we work pretty hard to avoid moving that much.


Not sure if by beta you mean Cataclysm beta or 4.2 PTR, but the reason why LS was so good pre-4.2 was that it ramped up based on movement, instead of number of MF casts as is the case right now. This made a major difference because pre-4.2 it was possible to get the maximum effect with only 1 MF, assuming you kept moving. This talent has changed in 2 negative ways: first of all it now generates energy, which is the obvious drawback we are all discussing; and second, and maybe more importantly, its ramp up time is now a lot longer. One change only would have this talent still usable. The combination of changes makes it really lackluster, to the point that pretty much everybody is going to drop it.

As for replacement talents, already in pre-4.2 I felt that 3/3 Perseverance and 3/3 Owlkin Frenzy were, if not mandatory strictly speaking, at least the talents that provided the most "bang for the buck". That left us with at least 2 points to spend in the Balance Tree, and another point elsewhere (typically Solar Beam for utility + either 2/2 FG or Gale Winds).

Dropping LS on top of that means speccing FG + Gale Winds + Solar Beam (since we need those points to max out the Balance Tree, and the only other possibilities being Dreamstate or Moonglow, both of which we don't really need). That also leaves an extra point, which at this stage I'd be tempted to spend in the feral tree, either in Feral Swiftness (15% faster movement in cat form is always nice) or Furor (more mana + a chance to use Skull Bash). We're definitely running out of interesting talents.

#58 Hamlet

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:25 PM

True, the loss of stacking on movement hurt the talent more than I'd realized. I suspect that was going to go out regardless of what else happened though, since something Blizzard really didn't like was the intentional dancing in circles that Moonkin always did (it was unintended and looked silly). Removing the ability to get a DPS advantage from intentionally moving back and forth when we didn't otherwise need to is probably better for the game overall.

#59 Omesi

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:09 AM

the /cancel aura macro still works for me on EU-servers, is it standard procedure for hotfixes to be applied on EU-servers later?

#60 qae

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 03:02 AM

The good thing about this whole LS affair is that should it be beneficial to spec out of it (which is not clear for now), Blizzard may think of a way to make the talent attractive again by reworking the mechanism.
As Hamlet pointed out, it was not that great a talent to begin with, even if it had some nice uses. It did help with mobility and eclipse management, but also allowed for a gimmicky gameplay (Sunfire spamm) that was probably performing too well (especially in pvp and in pve encounters with 2+ targets).
With increased Mastery scores, the incent to stay in the most powerfull eclipse (Solar) would probably only increase with gear and I understand why they wanted to put a stop to it.

However having such a huge damage boost while in eclipse is probably going to push us into gimmicks more and more. As of now, I don't have the best gear available but I already do 53% more damage in eclipse (without Theralion's mirror proc). If Blizzard doesn't balance out of eclipse damage et eclipsed damage a little, I'm afraid we won't be willing to bounce back and forth between eclipse - which is supposed to be the design - in a lot of situations if we can figure a way to stay in Solar for extended periods of time just to be able to AOE things comfortably.




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