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[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)


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#21 Xenoborg

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:25 PM

From the Combat Ratings Thread:
http://elitistjerks....l_85_cataclysm/

Armor Reduction Formula for level 81 and up
The armor reduction formula has also been changed for levels 81 and up.

  • Level 81 and up:
    DR=\frac{Armor}{Armor + 2167.5 \times  Level - 158167.5}

For tanks, you will want to know what's the armor cap when facing level 88 bosses, here's a quick table:
[table="head"]Armor Reduction for level 88 attacker| Armor needed
50%| 32572.5
55% | 39810.8
60% | 48858.7
65% | 60491.7
70% | 76002.5
75% | 97717.5
[/table]


Even in BIS gear you don't have a chance to go much farther than about 60k passive armor, so while there still is a cap, its not really obtainable except during some procs.

#22 Drinksbeer

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 12:48 AM

Checking around I've seen claims of both 15% and 30% health to the raid. Screenshots might help clear up the confusion, especially if the disparity is due to strange interactions with other buffs or talents.



Could the shaman healing buff possibly be the culprit on the confusion? Not certain as I don't have 4 piece yet but it could throw the % off a bit giving the timing of the buff being up or down on certain players.

#23 a civilian

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 03:25 PM

Or did you mean to say:
You get 30% increased health and either:
A) 3% of tanks max health per second (unglyphed)
or
B) 30% increased healing (glyhped).

Yeah this is what I meant, sorry if I wrote it in a weird way.


So if you had ~210k health buffed, that would be ~230k with ancestral healing and ~300k with frenzied regeneration. Thus frenzied regeneration would heal for 9k health per second per player; across 25 players that's 225k health per second.

In order for the 30% healing from the glyph to be better, the healers would need to be doing more than 225k/.3 = 750k healing per second, which is 2-4 times typical burst healing values. Therefore, in almost no cases is the glyph worthwhile. You would use the glyph if only a small fraction of the raid needs healing when you use frenzied regeneration.

Also, if you could use frenzied regeneration on cooldown without overheal it would average 225k/9 = 25k hps over the fight. On Ultraxion it would average 100k hps over the fight.

#24 Xenoborg

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:55 PM

I was thinking about trinkets last night and here's what I plan to be using: Any other suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.
Morchok: Wrath of Unchaining (Stacking Agi), Resolve of Undying (Stacking Dodge)
Damage incoming is pretty much all physical, with effects that increase damage taken, further boosting agi/dodge over stam or mastery.

Yorshaj: Wrath, Mirror
Good old mirror comes back again, on a fight where 75%+ of the damage you take is magic, its a no-brainer.

Zon'ozz: Wrath, Mirror
His beam does a lot of damage as a huge spike so probably mirror again.

Hagara: Wrath, Matrix
Even on heroic tank damage was very low on the PTR so dodge wouldn't be as good. Not enough unavoidable magic damage to need mirror. Lots of time off the boss means stacking trinkets will probably fall, and will give plenty of time for Matrix to come back off CD.

Ultraxion: Wrath, Indomitable Pride (Stam, Shield Proc)
A close call, but for now I'm going to use Indomitable both because Ultraxion can melee pretty hard in the window between CDs, and to have more health for Hour. Resolve could definitely be used here though.

Blackhorn: Wrath, Resolve
Huge tank damage in a short amount of time rules out Indomitable proc, and any increase to the chance to dodge sunder help a lot.

Spine: Wrath, Indomitable Pride (Amalgamation tank) or Matrix (Blood tank)
Infrequent periods of very high mob damage is perfect for Pride. If your on bloods you probably just want to maximize the damage you can do to the tendons.

Madness: Wrath, Matrix
We spend about 75% of the fight in cat so you want Agi trinkets. Magic damage is too constant for mirror to help much, and Pride won't help with Impales.

#25 Drinksbeer

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:50 PM

Xeno, I think you nailed it on the trinkets. Great explanation as well! Question for you, take wrath out of the equation, which trinket would you sub in for it? Matrix? Spindle? I could see matrix being a good sub but I think spindle, and even stay/seed have a good arguement as well for the fights where the damage is more predictable.

#26 Xenoborg

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 08:55 PM

Trinket Subsitions.
I'm assuming every has mirror/seed and some kind of matrix by this point.
Morchok: Matrix is always a good on a physical fight. Seed/Fire from the Deep are still good, but their mastery is devalued by fight mechanics. Their uses can be nice if by luck you get to 3-4 stacks of sunder (Normal) or get hit by the other tank's stomp (Heroic). I would still avoid stamina trinkets since the damage is not spiky or huge until the final burn which you'll have majors for.
Yorshaj: Magic damage is really the only part to tank damage on this fight so your other trinket doesn't matter, I would use matrix. I might also try Sindragosa's Fang.
Zon'ozz: Matrix or Seed/Fire. Matrix gives more overall, but Seed/Fire will let you use your trinket proc when he has many stacks.
Hagara: Still not enough magic damage to justify mirror, so Seed/Fire
Ultraxion: Matrix or Seed to boost your cat time. Once we get better gear probably Matrix over Pride anyway.
Blackhorn: Seed/Fire, you really really need to dodge those sunders if you can.
Spine: Seed or maybe even Spindle for when the Amalgamation starts hitting hard.
Madness: Seed or maybe even a DPS trinket with passive agility.

#27 Drinksbeer

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:52 PM

That is a post that needs to be bookmarked, tremendous list!!

I was speaking with a friend of mine and he was planning on trying the Bedrock Talisman tonight on heroic Morchok, he claimed that it would be a viable choice for that fight, I'm not 100% on that but if it works out for him I'l definitely edit this post. Regardless, it will be interesting to see some damage/mitigation numbers later on in the week once more bears get a chance to tank the heroics.

Thanks again for the list by the way.

#28 jageddowes

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 05:58 PM

I was thinking about trinkets last night and here's what I plan to be using: Any other suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.
Morchok: Wrath of Unchaining (Stacking Agi), Resolve of Undying (Stacking Dodge)
Damage incoming is pretty much all physical, with effects that increase damage taken, further boosting agi/dodge over stam or mastery.


Actually in my recent experience on Heroic Morchok it'd be best to combine Wrath/Indomitable. Wrath obviously plus the 2pc provide physical mitigation but Indomitable will proc on every stomp, every 1min, giving your healers time to catch up.

On a side note, I used to stack agil but I switched to stam gems, a healthy mix with the offsetting values provided by switching trinkets has proved best for me so far. Between the kiril Polearm: Kiril, Fury of Beasts - Item - World of Warcraft and wrath you should have enough agil to add in a healthy mix of stamina, except for the fights where we'll be dpsing 75% of the time.

#29 Vsteve

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:32 AM

4pc unglyphed bear healing on the raid/group seems to have gotten roughly a ~50% stealth nerf sometime this weekend.

Anyone else seeing it?

#30 Pivotstun

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:24 AM

Yes, our bear was healing us for roughly 4,5k per tick with about 300k health during Frenzied Regen. This matches the max health buff of 15% which the raid receives instead of 30%, as both seem to have an reduced effect of 50%.

Currently our bear is stacking Agi, but with unglyphed 4pc, stacking Stamina might be a better choice, also considering the amount of spell damage from bosses this tier.

#31 Moorwalker

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:35 PM

From my personal tests around tier 13 4pc bonus and FR:
- party/raid seems to receive hp bonus of 15% of bears max hp (not their current max hp) - need confirmation on this
- debuff remains on raid for its duration even if you shift out of bear, outrange raid members or change realms (like by using Heroic Will on Ultraxion)

That would make stamina trinkets worth considering for fights when you expect your raid cd being used in rotation (most fights I believe). Also would make cat-forced-to-bear-for-15s nonglyphed version significantly weaker (I believe you still gain +30% extra healing from glyphed one).

#32 Radalek

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:26 PM

4pc unglyphed bear healing on the raid/group seems to have gotten roughly a ~50% stealth nerf sometime this weekend.

Anyone else seeing it?


Heya, noticed it too. Not a druid tank my self but look at this logs from my guilds MT:

Thursday: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

He was geming agility and not using 2 stamina trinkets, he had 270k hp during cast which resulted into this
[23:31:28.086] Fightclûb Frenzied Regeneration Fightclûb +8111
[23:31:28.473] Fightclûb Mass Regeneration Akasha +4055

50% of Frenzied regeneration transferred into Mass regeneration

We noticed how powerful it is and decided to see him with stamina gems and rallying cry being popped at the same time but then this happened:

Sunday log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

He had whooping 418k HP during cast but it resulted with this:
[23:35:58.352] Fightclûb Frenzied Regeneration Fightclûb +12552
[23:35:58.582] Fightclûb Mass Regeneration Hyuna +3137

Only 25% transfer so it seems it had been halved.

#33 Xenoborg

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:05 PM

Confirming the healing nerf after looking at my logs:

Thursday - WOL Search for Mass/Frenzied Regen - Thursday
[19:12:11.368] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +9521
[19:12:11.666] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Tarkin +4760

Sunday - WOL Search for Mass/Frenzied Regen - Sunday
[20:12:51.613] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +8574
[20:12:51.802] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Kobrakai +2143

When I get home I'll test the theory that the health buff is 50% of the health gained by the bear (Seems very likely based on the limited data I have with me) and whether or not the healing bonus with the glyph was changed.

Another minor note looking at logs: mass regeneration can crit based on your spell crit and it benefits from things that increase healing received like demon armor and nurturing instinct.

#34 Melthu

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:04 PM

I hate to do this but since I can't test myself I have a list of questions I need other people to answer about the 4pc bonus so that we can consolidate all of the information we have. If you can provide screenshots or logs as evidence of your answers that would be great, but unless someone contradicts you I'll take your word for it.

  • When you cast Frenzied Regen a separate buff called Mass Regeneration is applied to the raid, correct?
  • If you then swap to cat form do you get a Mass Regen buff on yourself or do you lose all benefits?
  • Are there any notable limitations to how the buff is applied, such as range, different phases, etc.?
  • What happens if you cast Frenzied Regen while you still have the debuff from shifting into bear form?
  • The current consensus seems to be that the health buff applied to raid members is 15% of the bear's max hp, is this accurate?
  • Additionally, temporary health buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude and Rallying Cry increase the Mass Regen health buff, correct?
  • What happens if temporary health buffs are gained or lost after Mass Regen has been applied, on either the bear or the other raid members?
  • If Frenzied Regen is glyphed then raid members gain 15% healing taken with Mass Regen, correct?
  • If Frenzied Regen is not glyphed then raid members are healed for 1.5% of the bear's max hp every second, correct?
  • Does this healing depend on whether or not the bear who used Frenzied Regen has rage?
  • Does this healing continue to work if the bear changes form, dies, enters a different phase, etc.?
  • This healing can crit and also benefits from talents and abilities that increase healing taken, correct?

That's everything I can think of for now, thank you to everyone who helps out with testing the bonus.

#35 Xenoborg

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:20 PM

1. When you cast Frenzied Regen a separate buff called Mass Regeneration is applied to the raid, correct?
Yes, spell ID here :Mass Regeneration - Spell - World of Warcraft

2. If you then swap to cat form do you get a Mass Regen buff on yourself or do you lose all benefits?
You lose all benefits, the raid continues to have the benefits. They won't get healing, but still get the increased healing taken.

3. Are there any notable limitations to how the buff is applied, such as range, different phases, etc.?
The spell data from above indicates range to be 100y.

4. What happens if you cast Frenzied Regen while you still have the debuff from shifting into bear form?
You get the normal effects as if you did not have the 4pc.

5. The current consensus seems to be that the health buff applied to raid members is 15% of the bear's max hp, is this accurate?
Yes, regardless of buffs on yourself or raid member it takes a snapshot of your health increase at cast and gives half of that to the raid.
Char   After     Before   Increase
Xeno	257936	198413	59523
1	170410	140649	29761
2	178822	149061	29761
3	232926	203165	29761
4	178914	149153	29761
5	163340	133579	29761
6	175938	146177	29761
7	167426	137665	29761
8	173292	143531	29761
9	163823	134062	29761
10	167372	137611	29761
11	165440	135679	29761
12	173054	143293	29761
13	171388	141627	29761

6. Additionally, temporary health buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude and Rallying Cry increase the Mass Regen health buff, correct?
Yes, they increased both the health given and the healing done by mass regeneration ticks in proportion with the tanks increased health.

7. What happens if temporary health buffs are gained or lost after Mass Regen has been applied, on either the bear or the other raid members?
Losing a health buff mid regen (I click off my mark of the wild) reduced healing tics to their new expected value. It did not reduce the health bonus.

8. If Frenzied Regen is glyphed then raid members gain 15% healing taken with Mass Regen, correct?
It still gives a 30% increase to healing received.
Testing with a priest using desperate prayer, which heals for a set 30% of current max health (+6% and +12% from other priest talents)
Before, 142k, healed for 50.57k
After, 177k healed for 82.0k (That is 63.04 from new max health + 30% healing bonus for mass regen)

9. If Frenzied Regen is not glyphed then raid members are healed for 1.5% of the bear's max hp every second, correct?
After the nerf, it is now 0.75% of the bears max health a second, if 10 rage is consumed (0.075% per rage consumed). As seen 2 posts previous.

10. Does this healing depend on whether or not the bear who used Frenzied Regen has rage?
Yes, directly proportional to rage consumed.

11. Does this healing continue to work if the bear changes form, dies, enters a different phase, etc.?
Dieing or changing form stops any healing you may have been giving, but does not effect the increased health or healing taken buffs on the raid. I have not yet had a chance to test on Ultraxion with phasing.

12. This healing can crit and also benefits from talents and abilities that increase healing taken, correct?
Yes. Whether or not it crits on you is independent from if it crits on other people, crits on you do not heal them for more. Crit rate on 1500 ticks was ~16, near to my raid buffed spell crit.
Thursday - WOL example showing crits and a warlock (Demon armor) and a feral cat (Nurturing Instinct) taking more healing.

#36 Xenoborg

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 03:58 AM

I have not yet had a chance to test on Ultraxion with phasing.

Tested it just now, it does not apply to people in other phases. The healing applies to whoever is in the same phase as you at any given moment. The health increase and healing taken increase apply to whoever is in your phase at the start and will stay on regardless of phasing.

#37 Rohgraht

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 11:40 PM

Just to confirm what people have been seeing when watching logs, here are one of blizzards Patch 4.3 Hotfixes: December 12:

"The Mass Regeneration effect from the Druid Tier 13 bonus now heals 25% of the healing received by the Druid from Frenzied Regeneration, down from 50%. The tooltip will be updated in a later patch"

#38 Xenoborg

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:23 PM

Cross-posting this from the cat thread, showing that Nurturing Instinct has no effect on the 4pc.

Looking at my logs from last night I can say that Nurturing Instinct has no effect (or an extremely small effect) on either the tics on yourself or the tics you give to the raid.

WOL search of mass regeneration during Ultraxion where I had Nurturing Instinct

[22:47:04.164] Xenoborg Frenzied Regeneration Xenoborg +10107
[22:47:04.295] Xenoborg Mass Regeneration Ruskó +2527

I had 256k (rounded) normal maximum health at the time, giving 332.8k during regen, with an expected healing tic of 9990. The actual value was 1.15% higher, but I believe this is due to a slight further increase in my health from a resto shaman. The mass regen tic was the expect 25% of the tick on me.



#39 Groven

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:11 AM

I had a quick question about mastery and the absorb it should be doing.

Currently I have 1725 mastery which increases my savage defense bubble by 70% add that to the 35% it gives me 105% of my AP.

Currently in game I am only getting roughly 60% of my AP as a bubble. Maybe I am missing out on the scaling or somthing but I just wanted to check.

My current unbuffed AP is 13366
My current Absorb is 7975
Gymclasshero's Savage Defense is refreshed on Gymclasshero. (7975 Remaining)

With my mastery shouldn't this be a 14034 absorb?

Thanks for any help.

#40 Xenoborg

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:20 AM

The bonus from mastery is multiplicative, not additive.

35% *1.7 = 59.5% of your AP as a shield




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