Jump to content


Photo

[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)


  • Please log in to reply
99 replies to this topic

#41 MuKen

MuKen

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:26 AM

= Rotation=

For the basic tanking rotation you want to follow a short set of rules:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up
2. Mangle on cooldown
3. Thrash
4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate
5. Keep up the Pulverize buff
6. Faerie Fire
7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate
8. Spend excess rage on Maul


Hi everyone! I'm a fairly new player, only been on a couple of raids so far, so forgive me if this has been talked about or is just plain obviously wrong, but I've been wanting to ask: why does Thrash out-prioritize Lacerate in this rotation? If threat is not an issue, which it usually isn't, then you want to optimize your rotation to favor survivability right? Aside from demo roar and CDs, the only thing you can do that affects your survivability at all is to get more crits, and for that lacerate seems like it should outprioritize thrash since:

1) glyphed, it is the only attack you have with an increased crit chance
2) it costs less rage than thrash; more rage efficiency means more mauls, and since mauls are off the gcd, this means more total attacks and hence more chances to get crits

#42 Seles

Seles

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:27 AM

The miniscule increase in damage reduction with the 5% higher crit on lacerate for mastery bubbles is vastly outweighed by the superior dps you do following the rotation.

For example, a bear offtank on Ultraxion is capable of 30k dps, a significant improvement over the other tank classes who usually fall around the 20k dps range. 10k rdps is nothing to sneeze at, even in a 25m raid, and the overall faster kill speed directly reduces the amount of incoming damage to the raid over the fight.

Just because the tank's main role is to absorb damage gracefully, does not mean that there is no point at which any further improvement to survivability is too minimal for what you have to give up to achieve it.

#43 Leafkiller

Leafkiller

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 134 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:34 PM

Actually, I think 3 and 4 should be reversed. You always want at least one stack of Lacerate up to proc Mangle. That is how it is modeled in Mew and expressed in my Ovale script. It is also consistent with what Astrylian told me about a year ago when I asked what rotation was being modeled in RAWR.

I would recommend changing the rotation to:

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up
2. Mangle on cooldown
3. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate
4. Thrash
5. Keep up the Pulverize buff
6. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate
7. Faerie Fire
8. Lacerate as a filler
9. Spend excess rage on Maul

(The logic around Lacerate and FF at the end of the script has also been changed.)

Of course, it can get significantly more complex than that. Especially if you want to optimize uptime with Pulverize for mitigation with 2 piece T13. That does, however, lower dps.

#44 Melthu

Melthu

    Confused

  • Moderators
  • 2,020 posts

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:46 PM

1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up
2. Mangle on cooldown
3. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate
4. Thrash
5. Keep up the Pulverize buff
6. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate
7. Faerie Fire
8. Lacerate as a filler
9. Spend excess rage on Maul


I copied this rotation into the OP, along with a note that the priority may change in certain situations, such as moving up Pulverize for more survivability.

#45 MuKen

MuKen

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:06 AM

The miniscule increase in damage reduction with the 5% higher crit on lacerate for mastery bubbles is vastly outweighed by the superior dps you do following the rotation.

For example, a bear offtank on Ultraxion is capable of 30k dps, a significant improvement over the other tank classes who usually fall around the 20k dps range. 10k rdps is nothing to sneeze at, even in a 25m raid, and the overall faster kill speed directly reduces the amount of incoming damage to the raid over the fight.

Just because the tank's main role is to absorb damage gracefully, does not mean that there is no point at which any further improvement to survivability is too minimal for what you have to give up to achieve it.


Ah, I see. Thanks!

Second question: the priority seems to put getting Mauls off at very low priority (i.e. just spend whatever leftover rage you have on them). However, Maul seems to be a big deal in terms of survivability. Using it off CD increases the raw number of attacks you put out (and hence the the ratio of crits you get) by over 30%, hence it would seem to me that missing a Maul is a bad thing. Thus, rather than optimizing the rotation for thrashes (which is the only special attack that costs more than 15 rage) and spending whatever leftovers you have on maul, shouldn't we be assuming we will maul on CD, and only thrash as much as we can without using too much rage to make us miss a maul?

I understand most of the time our rage income will be enough to do both, but there are situations where you do run low on rage, so in those situations shouldn't the priority be to keep up the mauls rather than the thrashes? For example, you just tank swapped in from dpsing in cat form, so you have only 40 rage. Should you forego a maul at the start so you can afford the thrash? Or should you forego thrash for a bit so you can get an extra maul? The maul is a not insignificant chance to proc a savage defense right out the gate. If this was an emergency swap in, the healers might appreciate that a lot.

Similarly, aside from getting and maintaining the 3-stack, should FFF be on the list at all? That's a whole GCD where you're not using a special attack, and thus one less chance to proc SD. Seems like we should be trying to get out as many attacks as possible.

#46 daklod

daklod

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:10 PM

I think you are mixing up Mangle and Maul? Maul is the attack that has no CD and enhances your next autoattack, so it does not increase the number of attacks at all.
If you substitute Maul with Mangle everything you said is right.

EDIT: Silly me, nevermind i guess i come from the past ;)

#47 [BP]Mortifer

[BP]Mortifer

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:40 PM

I think you are mixing up Mangle and Maul? Maul is the attack that has no CD and enhances your next autoattack, so it does not increase the number of attacks at all.
If you substitute Maul with Mangle everything you said is right.


Maul was a "On next melee" attack, but has been changed to an instant (Off GCD) attack.
He meant maul all the way.

And yes, mauls really do increase the probability of savage defense procs, and survivability is exactly what we need after a tank switch until healing has stabilized.

#48 MuKen

MuKen

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:41 PM

Ok, so then wouldn't the ideal priority be:


1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up
2. Maul if it is off cooldown and you have at least 45 rage
3. Mangle on cooldown
4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate
5. Thrash if it will not interfere with the next Maul
6. Keep up the Pulverize buff
7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate
8. Keep up a 3 stack of Faerie Fire
9. Lacerate as a filler

The 45 rage being to ensure that Maul won't interfere with doing other specials on the GCD.

#49 Leafkiller

Leafkiller

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 134 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:57 PM

Ok, so then wouldn't the ideal priority be:


1. Keep Demoralizing Roar up
2. Maul if it is off cooldown and you have at least 45 rage
3. Mangle on cooldown
4. Keep up at least 1 stack of Lacerate
5. Thrash if it will not interfere with the next Maul
6. Keep up the Pulverize buff
7. Keep up a 3 stack of Lacerate
8. Keep up a 3 stack of Faerie Fire
9. Lacerate as a filler

The 45 rage being to ensure that Maul won't interfere with doing other specials on the GCD.


Honestly, since Maul is off of the GCD, I track it separately from the main rotation, but do use 45 rage for when to recommend it. #8 is not about keeping up a three stacks of FFF. Since FFF has no Rage component and only a 1 second GCD (most bear abilities have a 1.5 second GCD), you can hit FFF when you are low on range, and it does decent damage and also decent threat gen (not that threat matters much now).

#50 Lafie

Lafie

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:27 PM

How are other druids who are solo tanking madness of deathwing handling tetanus at the end? It seems they now changed it to do shadow damage instead of physical damage. Before we were using bop on tank after dream to clear the stack when it was getting over 5. And on second pack of the adds, I had all of my cd's back up and dream to survive it, normally if the stack got over 7, healers weren't able to keep me up any more. We were using 3 healers.

Now after change to magic damage, we had to sacrifice me in the first pack because the stack gets unhealable, then ress and then use all cd's on the second pack to survive it. I was thinking maybe having a DK to tank the other add for AMS and then dream duration and hoply managing to kill the other add on meantime and then taunting the add off from the dk, sadly we had no dk in the raid to test this.

#51 Panthros

Panthros

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 23 December 2011 - 02:20 AM

[Vial of Shadows]

I have a question about this trinquet. Can the proc attack generate a mastery's bubble?

#52 Dieselrat

Dieselrat

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 23 December 2011 - 12:24 PM

How are other druids who are solo tanking madness of deathwing handling tetanus at the end? It seems they now changed it to do shadow damage instead of physical damage. Before we were using bop on tank after dream to clear the stack when it was getting over 5. And on second pack of the adds, I had all of my cd's back up and dream to survive it, normally if the stack got over 7, healers weren't able to keep me up any more. We were using 3 healers.

Now after change to magic damage, we had to sacrifice me in the first pack because the stack gets unhealable, then ress and then use all cd's on the second pack to survive it. I was thinking maybe having a DK to tank the other add for AMS and then dream duration and hoply managing to kill the other add on meantime and then taunting the add off from the dk, sadly we had no dk in the raid to test this.


First of, how is your overall dps? I'm not the best one to answer this since we got our first kill yesterday but here's how we did it.

We went with x2 healers instead of x3. This really helped alot! Had all my cd's ready for the first wave of terrors. Used up dream/si/barkskin, also we had a dpriest which helped alot. Also used BL after engaging the terrors, ended up with 6 stacks. After this we ignored the second wave of fragments /popped frenzied/ and got the kill.

Went with 2x stamina trinkets because I was afraid of the Impale when I had to use frenzied but that worked fine so probably going to try it with seed/mirror next week. Or hopefully I'll get matrix/wrath untill the next try so I can go with those 2!

On a side note, just picked up tanking about 2 months ago on my druid after a long break but hopefully you found some of this information valuable. Starting to read up again making my way through rawr, really enjoy this part outside of the game :)!

./Lajvaiskogen

#53 jageddowes

jageddowes

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 23 December 2011 - 03:32 PM

First of, how is your overall dps? I'm not the best one to answer this since we got our first kill yesterday but here's how we did it.

We went with x2 healers instead of x3. This really helped alot! Had all my cd's ready for the first wave of terrors. Used up dream/si/barkskin, also we had a dpriest which helped alot. Also used BL after engaging the terrors, ended up with 6 stacks. After this we ignored the second wave of fragments /popped frenzied/ and got the kill.

Went with 2x stamina trinkets because I was afraid of the Impale when I had to use frenzied but that worked fine so probably going to try it with seed/mirror next week. Or hopefully I'll get matrix/wrath untill the next try so I can go with those 2!

On a side note, just picked up tanking about 2 months ago on my druid after a long break but hopefully you found some of this information valuable. Starting to read up again making my way through rawr, really enjoy this part outside of the game :)!

./Lajvaiskogen


I've solo tanked it 3 times now, to be able to do that it's not only up to you but up to the dps/comp you have. This is how we did it:

- 1 tank (druid - me) / 2 heals (shammy, pally - disc works too) / 7 dps (healthy mix). Make sure you have replenishment for the healers and use innervate on CD on the lowest mana healer.

- Green/Bronze/Red/Blue

- On ALL platforms, as soon as the tentacle spawns ALL dps switch to do it and burn it down with CDs. 1min and 2min CDs will be up every platform, 3min CDs will be up every other platform. That way you are guaranteed to only deal with one impale. On green you can just dream it off, pop barkskin after impale goes down to help manage healers mana. After the tentacle is down you'll have time to down the bolt before it lands, if not quickly have dps down it and then finish up tentacle, but for us it worked every time.

Have all raid members use their dream for each tentacle/fire to help healers mana (2 times).

- On yellow it's the same deal. Use SI for impale then barkskin to help out heals. Exact same deal as green.

- On red we downed the tentacle every time before the bolt landed but that might not happen. Barskin for impale.

1. Say you down the tentacle in time then have EVERYONE stack on a marker in the back as close as the limb as possible and use a raid CD such as barrier, spirit link, AM, RC for impact. And I tranked to help out heals.

2. Say the bolt will land before the tentacle dies, and taking a page out of our 25man strat, leave the tentacle raid stack in the back, CD through impact, kill bolt then finish off tentacle. A pally can HoS you and DP himself, a disc can put PS on you. If worse comes to worse your SI might be up by then, tho I'd rather save it for blue.

- Blue is the exact same deal as red with minor changes. I used my 4set for impact and then used RC and Spirit link for each of the Blistering tentacle adds. Another trank here is a plus if you have another druid. The smaller tentacles adds will need to be single target, Aoe doesn't work, if you have oozes and tentacles up, kill tentacles then AoE oozes.

On phase 2:

- Down tentacles at the beginning, have everyone including yourself use dream for tentacle Sharpnel cast. The elmentium terros will spawn, tank them on the time zone and mark one. Use your dream, barkskin, SI, and healers CDs to survive it.

As soon as the terrors die, pop hero and burn DW down, ignore the tentacles that respawn, use your 4set again to help out heals and have dream ready for sharpnel if dps is bad.

**As a side note you can use hero twice in this fight. Use it on green tentacle and then again at the end.**

**As far as trinkets I use Indomitable and Wrath, pretty much the same gear I have on now**

#54 lairpie

lairpie

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 402 posts

Posted 23 December 2011 - 09:49 PM

As a note, you only need one CD for impale per platform, so you should be able to have every CD up for the last phase. Eat the first impale with a cd, then right before the second, just have the tank and melee run away while the ranged finish the corruption. The tentacle will start impaling the aspect, but there's ample time to get it down before the aspect dies unless you only have 1 ranged or something. Our alt 10 man was usually able to kill the corruption before the 2nd impale even with 3 healers, and if not just run away. Make sure none of the ranged are in that 1/2 of the platform at all.

The biggest thing that makes the fight easy is just not damaging the arm/wing tentacle until after the corruption. There's plenty of time in 10 man to kill it from 100-0 after the corruption. That lets your healers sit there and regen mana, which can be a big help.

#55 Drinksbeer

Drinksbeer

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:56 PM

Has anyone tested the UNglyphed mass regen effect on heroic yorsahj if you get the purple slme? I wont be able to try it until Tuesday but im interested to see if that healing has wiped the raid or if it had no "stack" effect.

#56 Xenoborg

Xenoborg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:18 PM

It does not stack the debuff, and is an awesome source of healing during purple.

#57 Rixaana

Rixaana

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 03 January 2012 - 09:28 PM

So, I have read Xeno's post on the trinkets, and saw no mention of Soulshifter Vortex. Is it not worth using as a bear? I was also wondering if there is a soft cap for mastery, because using SSV with Matrix, both proccing mastery, i get to 40+ mastery, and it seems as if it stops scaling as much and my SD procs arent as high as the % says they should be. Max i have seen them go to is about 45k, which with 40+ mastery and 43-46k AP should be much higher than that.

Edit: Character is Aziforth on US: Whisperwind, Night elf druid

#58 jageddowes

jageddowes

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:20 AM

Main Tank POV

Morchok - 95% physical damage
70% of the damage being melee, 25% by the stomp
50% more damage for 10 sec after stomp.

Trinkets - Indomitable and Wrath. Indomitable will proc on every stomp, every 1min relieving the 50% increased damage. Since Savage Defense has a much higher uptime you would think more agility is better but the bubble on every other stomp is very useful, plus more stamina for spiked damage.

CDs - Rotate CDs: barkskin, SI, Berserk (with 2 piece and hope for the best).
Use CDs right before the stomp so it lasts through the 50% increased damage.

Use glyphed 4set up to 3 times in the fight.
Pot + berserk for Hero.

Yorsajh - 70% Magical damage
Void Bolt - initial shadow damage plus more shadow damage every 2 sec. Stacking. Physical damage comes only from Yorsahj and adds melee.


Unglyph 4set for aoe healing that don't create stacks. It is specially important during the green-red-black-yellow combo and during green-yellow-purp-blue.

Trinkets - Indomitable, mirror ( another stam trinket if you don’t have mirror). Agility is useless in this fight. More stam = more effective 4set CD.

On a side note, fuck you Dk’s.

Zon’ozz - 70% Physical damage, 30% Magical
Foccused Anger stacks increasing physical damage done.
Psychic Drain frontal cone shadow damage and black blood.

Trinkets - Indomitable and wrath.

Hagara - 90% Physical damage
Focused Assault is the caused of most of the damage and then melee.
Glyph 4set.

Trinkets - Indomitable and Wrath. Indomitable for the stam on spike damage and bubble of Focused Assault. Wrath fro the more consistent SD procs.
Another very viable option is to go wrath/matrix since FA can be CDed through it and more works much better for consistent physical damage than Indomitable.


CD through FA (personal or healer CD, Pain suppression, Barrier, HoS + DP)

Ultraxion - 50% physical, 50% Magic
Physical is all melee, no special abilities. Magic is all from Twilight Instability. This can easily be CD through it with just barkskin and SI.
Unglyphed 4set.

Trinkets - Indomitable or matrix, wrath. The extra damage and SD from wrath helps a ton when dealing with the enrage timer. Indomitable for more stam on the 4set and spiked twilight instability.

Blackhorn - 90% physical damage
The only magical damage comes from the barrage and onslaught.
The physical comes mostly from melee and the brutal strike.

Trinkets - Indomitable, wrath.

Spine of DW - 90% physical damage
No spiked damage.

Trinkets - Wrath, matrix. Constant physical damage with no spiked damage, more DPS, more consistent/stronger SD procs.

Madness of DW - 50% Physical damage, 30% fire damage
Most damage comes from the mutated corruption (big bad tentacle) which is all melee, the limb with fire damage from burning blood, and the elementium terrors melee and tetanus’ stacking DoT.

Trinkets - Indomitable, Wrath. Indomitable for the impale spiked damage and the elementium terrors.

---------------------------------------

Gemming due to the higher amount of spell damage and spiked damage in this instance a healthy mix of Stamina and Agility would be better. The offsetting values should be provided by the trinkets.

Also more stamina means a more effective 4set, whether glyphed or unglyphed..

Edit:

Please add anything you might find helpful to this post and/or changes.

#59 jageddowes

jageddowes

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 08:11 PM

It does not stack the debuff, and is an awesome source of healing during purple.


Tested it in 10man heroic and gave 681641 healing during Green-Yellow-Red-Black (we killed green).

Another great source of healing is to put 2 points on nurturing instincts for a much stronger Tranquility when free to do it. Other options for those 2 last points go on: Feral Aggression for the instant 3 stack FF, or Brutal Impact for the reduced CD on Bash.

We are progressing on 10man Heroic Yorsajh (we are a 25m progression guild but suffered heavy losses over the holidays) atm and my healing done (as a main tank) is as follows:

- Mass regeneration: 681641.

- SD: 609276 (75% Overheal)

- Leader of the pack: 470164

- Frenzied Regeneration: 256086 (Xeno, do you know why does this show here aside from the Mass regen? is it the portion healed only to me or adds to the above figure?)

- Tranquility: 248092

- Indomitable: 58458

So, I have read Xeno's post on the trinkets, and saw no mention of Soulshifter Vortex. Is it not worth using as a bear? I was also wondering if there is a soft cap for mastery, because using SSV with Matrix, both proccing mastery, i get to 40+ mastery, and it seems as if it stops scaling as much and my SD procs arent as high as the % says they should be. Max i have seen them go to is about 45k, which with 40+ mastery and 43-46k AP should be much higher than that.

Edit: Character is Aziforth on US: Whisperwind, Night elf druid


It's perfect for Dks > Pallies :-p

See I'm getting averaged 32k SD procs with no mastery (15)… but I couldn't say about a cap, also remember that +%4 per mastery point doesn't add up straight either as Xeno stated previously.

#60 Xenoborg

Xenoborg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

Frenzied Regeneration is the healing you did to yourself only.

Mass regeneration is the healing done to others only. It should (and does in your case) roughly equal the amount healed by Frenzied Regeneration * .25 * RaidSize. There is likely some small variation due to crits.

Regarding Soulshifter, its a decent trinket, but I would never use it over Indomitable Pride. I would probably use it over Moonwell or Vial due to the stam though as long as I wasn't specifically trying to dodge something important like Blackhorn's sunders.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users