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[Feral-Bear] Cataclysm 4.3 (Dragon Soul)


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#81 Driiper

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 08:03 AM

Why would ferals be behind other tanks in fights with spell damage? Savage defense doesn't work on magic, but neither does blocking or blood shield.

Its hard to argue with DKs having bone shield, ams, ibf, vamp blood, and the oft unused but powerful DRW+Army cooldowns (I've never seen another DK do it, but army gives you a damage reduction to keep you from getting gibbed while casting and thus not avoiding that is equal dodge + parry. DRW gives you 20% more parry, so that's a pretty powerful cd against magic damage, though on a long cd). But compared to warriors and paladins overall our CDs aren't noticeably worse.

We also have a flat 18% reduction on all damage, along with a 6% reduction on magic which meets or exceeds the passive reduction of other tanks. I may have missed something, but pretty sure Paladins have 9% from sanctuary, warriors 10% from dstance, dks 6% blade barrier and 8% from blood pres. Druids can also gear heavily for stamina much more viably than any other tank if being burst down by a melee, magic, melee is a concern. Also the fact that the melee hit right after a magic cast is virtually guaranteed to have a SD shield up since you didn't get hit during the cast doesn't model as much, but it sure is noticeable.


I was mainly thinking about Paladin with glyphed Divine protection? and Warriors with spell reflect ( it it works). Looking over logs he got a bit lower damage from both the spell damage and melee hits. gonna try some regemming for the melee hits, but i'm still unsure about the spell damage (if i can get below the paladin)

#82 jageddowes

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 04:38 PM

I've been a druid for as long as I've been playing the game and I'm working now on switching mains. Our guild went from 25m to 10m due to RL and sw:tor losses plus poor content management from Blizz. I also have a pally and a DK and I'm working on gearing my DK as the MT with a druid as OT. The reason for the switch is to make for a better comp 2 druid tanks aren't the best comp to have.

@Drippier, Spell reflect from warriors does not work on Yor'sahj

My take on tanks/boss with some research:

Morchok: Pally/Warrior>DK>Druid

Yor'sahj: DK>Pally>Druid>Warrior (it's worth mentioning that my druid did a shit ton of heals with the 4set and LotP on this fight…for a tank)

Zon'ozz: Pally/DK>Warrior/Druid

Hagara: Pally/Warrior>Druid/DK (Dk's have more tricks and CDs but SD procs more often than DS and druids have more passive avoidance, plus the druid 4set for lightning and roar for ice is very useful for this fight)

Ultraxion: DK>Pally>Druid>Warrior

Blackhorn: Pally>Warrior>DK>Druid

Spine: Pally/Warrior>Druid>DK

Madness: DK>Pally>Warrior>Druid

Obviously depends on how you time your CDs and who's playing the tank but just considering the type of damage per boss and mitigation per class that's what I came up with.

On a side note, Druids are the best OTs in the game ATM. Dragon Soul is mostly a one tank or a 1.5 at some point and Druids can output the most dmg as OT (having that 4set is pretty handy too).

Pallies and Warriors are the best vs Physical dmg hands down. Then DK since they have control over their Blood shield and then Druids, hope for dodge or hope for a SD shield.

DK's are obviously best vs Magical dmg and they do OK vs Physical.

Druids are the best OTs.

Pallies are the most balanced ones with a good array of CDs and the glyph for DP gives them a decent mitigation vs magic every 1min.

#83 Viryz

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 10:57 AM

Pallies and Warriors are the best vs Physical dmg hands down. Then DK since they have control over their Blood shield and then Druids, hope for dodge or hope for a SD shield.


I think you're wrong. A druid having the 2 set gives you 100% chance to trigger savage defence if you crit with mangle when you have pulverize up. Myself got 47% crit with with 3 apps of lacerate then pulverize, which give me almost 50% to trigger Savage defence. Also we're having sick dodge compared to other classes.

#84 david0925

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:10 PM

Druid's concern in Dragon Soul as a tank is just a lack of direction.

Warriors and Paladins excel in cases where there are constant physical damage going out due to Block
Blood DKs excel in cases where damage is not blockable, or where the mechanic allows Blood Shield to function very well (Morchok's Stomp, Madness Impale, etc). So while Druids are not last in any tanking situation (so I disagree with post #82), they also don't stand out.

That, and the fact that Druids are superior OTs that can add very valuable DPS in especially a 10man setting make them much better offtanks than main tanks (enjoy while it lasts)

#85 Szynszyla

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:09 PM

In reply to post #82 which I can sum up as bunch of crap and nonsense.

Both normal/hc
Yor'sahj -> Druids just behind DK. Highest HP possible, lowest possible magical damage taken due natural reaction. Especially for 10mans, dk/druid > pal/war by mile when you solo tank.
Zon'ozz -> Pretty much agree, no 100% block sux a lot in mitigating high dmg spikes. We have highest armor/avoidence of all though and lowest dmg from cone. So all tanks are pretty even.
Spine -> depends on the duty... again highest armor/dodge and natural reaction.
Madness HC -> Impale, guess who takes least dmg from impale, yes druid. Highest armor, natural reaction, barskin + SI. Phase 2 is a bit different, but the dot is physical (?), so again we take least.

Just to compare madness HC impale
Warrior 583k vs Feral 399k with shieldwall / SI and only 319k dmg with SI + Barskin. That is with inspiration and demo.
On this one it is not even funny how much druid is theoretically favored.

#86 Daylis

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:07 AM

Also disagree strongly on most of #82's points.

Hagaara, it's unreal how much easier it is to tank her Frenzied Assaults with a bear compared to a paladin. Warrior is in a slightly better position due to heroic leap/intervene, but being a bear, you can literally just stand there with Barskin up and take it whole on heroic.

I find myself taking less damage on Morchok than our paly MT. The difference is slight, but consistent.

Blackhorn i've only tanked once, but after our pally MT died, I ended up solotanking whole p2 due to insane dodge we have. Sure, it's RNGish, but it's also something no other tank can do with reasonable expectancy. That's a pretty big plus.

Spine is another ideal fight for a Feral OT. The advantages are pretty obvious really, no need to point them all out. Not sure why you'd want to force a feral in Bloods tanking role there if you go for the point that your bear is "MT".
On this point, i want to give a huge thanks to Rhy. I followed your advice and ended up in cat for 5 tendon bursts, staying in bear and picking up stray bloods before the last one. My damage done until 6th was comparable to our other DPS, aka 4.4 mil on the 5 tendon phases. Definitely what allowed us to make the dps check prenerf, which we're very happy for.

On madness hc, I'm in ilvl394 offspec gear, FULLY gemmed for dps (not a single stam gem), dps trinkets, taking impales like a boss. SI+Barkskin+disc bubble and pally sac after red platform is down and and I'm good to go. While not even being last on DPS meters (yes, I know it's inflated due to Spellweaving bloods tanking).
I'll see what happens once we get p2 attempts, but so far, Madness seems exactly like half of DS fights. Incredibly favorable for feral. I hesitate to say OT or DPS because there's so little to distinguish between them.

#87 david0925

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:23 PM

Madness HC -> Impale, guess who takes least dmg from impale, yes druid. Highest armor, natural reaction, barskin + SI. Phase 2 is a bit different, but the dot is physical (?), so again we take least.


A bit of misinformation here.

First of all, Impale is not mitigated by armor. In terms of pure mitigation, Druids are the best because of 18% from Natural reaction. However, Blood DKs are able to time their Death Strikes (x3 if they have 2 piece and dip under 35% before Impale) to get a huge absorbance bubble. Similarly, Druids are able to keep up a bubble with Savage Defense. Ironically, the 2 non-block tanks have the advantage here since they can partially block Impale.

Tetanus is shadow damage and the debuff can be avoided using AMS, so DKs are also the clear winner here.

Madness Tank is DK> Druid> Paladin= Warrior, in my opinion.

#88 Rhy

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:15 PM

Ranking tanks for Madness (10 man at least which I have done, 25 is obviously different) depends entirely on how you want to do the fight. You could use 2 tanks if your dps can manage the enrage, but you could also solo tank it, which is what we have done (shamelessly copying the strat from Angered).

For solo tanking, DKs clearly have the advantage. The reasons why were explained above. However, behind the DK you should put the paladins. They have a lot more cooldowns than the bears, which helps them have higher mitigation for the Impale that they take while still having a cooldown left for the Blood (glyphed DP helps a lot). In P2 the large amount of cooldowns they can use is again very helpful. They can also bubble the Tetanus stacks which is the biggest plus for them.

That being said, I have also solo tanked it as a druid. The key difference is that I rely a lot more on healer cooldowns to keep me alive than a paladin would. You will need at least HoSac from your holy paladin or PS from the priest. Having both is amazing but not 100% necessary.

As for the Impales, it is true, they are not mitigated by armor. Here's how you calculate the damage:

If a tooltip says that it decreases something by a percent, when you multiply (*) it, you must multiply (*) the math by 1 minus (-) the percent change. for example if something decreases damage by 30%, it would look like 0.7(damage).


Things such as Demo Roar/Shout and the other similar debuffs decrease the damage taken. Inspiration from the Disc priests and Ancestral Healing from shamans also apply(but they do not/should not stack), as well as the passive % damage reduction from talents.
So for example, as a druid on 10 man, if I have Inspiration(10%), Demo Roar(10%), 18% from talents, Barkskin(20%) and Survival Instincts(50%) the damage I will take is:
840 000*0.9*0.9*0.82*0.8*0.5=223 171

*The 5% zone wide debuff should also apply if I am not mistaken. Then you need to multiply again by 0.95.

#89 nossy

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 09:12 PM

I have seen quite a few posts in the past (namely trinket lists) that mention "being in kitty half the time" or generally implying that they are switching to cat form on some fights. As main tank for our guild I rarely find myself switching to cat form on fights that require swapping as I rarely lose much (if any) of my vengeance stack in between swaps - rage starvation aside - am I correct in my thinking that a bear with a full stack of vengeance does more DPS than one who switched to cat form when able? I know that gearing and encounter specific issues will have an impact on this and therefore there is no "magic" number, but is there any math that would give a better indication on how large a vengeance stack is needed to out-dps switching to cat form?

#90 lairpie

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:06 AM

There's no remote way to answer that without a lot more information.

Obviously a cat even in bear gear and spec does substantially more damage than a bear, even with full vengeance, even with full rage, so, you're essentially looking at a question of does the damage you do while in cat form, exceed the damage you would have done in bear form by more than the damage you lose in the first part of being a bear again from lost vengeance.

There's no way at all to answer that without knowing: Whether you will get vengeance back quickly when you go back to bear form in this fight? Would you have kept it up high in bear form? How long would you be able to be in cat form? Which talents do you have? Are you in front of the boss for purposes of shredding (as ultraxion would be a fairly prime fight for this question)? Is there anything to cleave? Are you saving zerking for using while in cat form? And the list goes on.

That said, my semi educated guess from looking at damage done over a lot of rag attempts was that if i can get a rip up, its worth it. Especially with a lot of mastery for SD, that bleed ticks for a lot.

#91 nossy

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:26 AM

There's no remote way to answer that without a lot more information.

Obviously a cat even in bear gear and spec does substantially more damage than a bear, even with full vengeance, even with full rage, so, you're essentially looking at a question of does the damage you do while in cat form, exceed the damage you would have done in bear form by more than the damage you lose in the first part of being a bear again from lost vengeance.

There's no way at all to answer that without knowing: Whether you will get vengeance back quickly when you go back to bear form in this fight? Would you have kept it up high in bear form? How long would you be able to be in cat form? Which talents do you have? Are you in front of the boss for purposes of shredding (as ultraxion would be a fairly prime fight for this question)? Is there anything to cleave? Are you saving zerking for using while in cat form? And the list goes on.

That said, my semi educated guess from looking at damage done over a lot of rag attempts was that if i can get a rip up, its worth it. Especially with a lot of mastery for SD, that bleed ticks for a lot.

I figured it would be the case that there were too many variables to have a clear cut answer, I suppose I was hoping there was an easier answer. I assume there's some way to simulate it in rawr which I hadn't considered. Thanks for the reply.

#92 Daylis

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

It would be pretty darn hard to math it out, especially if the time given to cat is of different lengths and different intervals. Namely because of Tiger's Fury and Berserk and Rip. Depends a lot on how high an uptime/how many you can squeeze in.

It -should- be worth going cat in a scenario like Yor, had oozes double HP of what they do. Boss singletarget damage being of a lower priority than burst&bleeds on the add.
Hagaara after each phase, though obviously Vengeance drops.
Spine & Madness.

Ultraxion probably offers least benefit of going cat. Not only can you not shred, there's only 1 target that offers full Vengeance uptime. From what logs i've seen however (when we were progressing on it) there was a quite clear tendency that cat-bears did do higher damage than fulltime bears. Those were usually higher because they had Vial which is obviously huge.
That's from pull to first Hour, minus 3-5 globals of going bear for Last Defender of Azeroth. A tiger's fury bleeds opener, bear for buff, full berserked cat and another full tiger's fury bleeds. Optimal cat time really.
Not to mention that in that time your fellow tank has Vengeance stacked, which would not be the case (or in lesser degree) if you were going Bear fulltime. So here's another raid dps increase.

#93 Akawa

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

It definitely depends on the fight. I quickly checked some numbers regarding my performance during the Madness (normal) fight. Here's what I found:

1. I've spent 63.5% of the time in Bear form and 32.9% in Cat form.
2. I've done 31.1% of my damage in Bear form vs 36.9% in Cat form (I disregard the white attacks and Spellweave since I can't determine whether they were done in Cat or Bear).
3. We need to take into account that there are periods in Bear form that I am not doing my maximum dps because I need to let the other tank establish aggro after an Impale and also I'm waiting for the tentacle to spawn in bear form. On the other hand I move between platforms in cat form (in order to use Stampeding Roar).

The way I use Cat form in this fight is the following:
Immediately after getting on a new platform I Rake, Mangle/Shred until 5 CP and Rip with TF. Maybe I refresh Rake before popping bear and rushing to the back side of the platform to be ready to pick up the Tentacle. After the Tentacle, Elementium Bolt *and* Regenerative Bloods are down I pop kitty again and do my best.

The log can be found here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

#94 nossy

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:21 PM

It definitely depends on the fight. I quickly checked some numbers regarding my performance during the Madness (normal) fight. Here's what I found:

1. I've spent 63.5% of the time in Bear form and 32.9% in Cat form.
2. I've done 31.1% of my damage in Bear form vs 36.9% in Cat form (I disregard the white attacks and Spellweave since I can't determine whether they were done in Cat or Bear).
3. We need to take into account that there are periods in Bear form that I am not doing my maximum dps because I need to let the other tank establish aggro after an Impale and also I'm waiting for the tentacle to spawn in bear form. On the other hand I move between platforms in cat form (in order to use Stampeding Roar).

The way I use Cat form in this fight is the following:
Immediately after getting on a new platform I Rake, Mangle/Shred until 5 CP and Rip with TF. Maybe I refresh Rake before popping bear and rushing to the back side of the platform to be ready to pick up the Tentacle. After the Tentacle, Elementium Bolt *and* Regenerative Bloods are down I pop kitty again and do my best.

The log can be found here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On a fight like madness I tend to start off each platform in kitty (because vengeance has dropped by that point) but most of the fight I'm staying in bear as long as I have a decent vengeance stack, which seems to stay fully stacked pretty much the entire platform even when I'm not tanking due to the AOE damage on each platform. Perhaps this isn't ideal as others have mentioned so far. 10m vs 25m probably isn't a fair comparison, and I'm not sure what your gemming/gearing setup is like, but I normally have 2.5k - 3k more DPS on madness than you show on the log you linked. Does anyone have WOL for a 25m normal madness encounter where they are switching to kitty more often that I could compare to? For comparison purposes I reforge all gear for dodge and gem agility-agility/dodge in most/all slots. For madness recently I've been using Matrix/Fluid for trinkets.

Here are a few recent logs from our guild on madness:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Our guild is casual and some of our DPS is pretty weak so I'd like to do as much as I can to help us succeed. I suppose the reason I'm asking is because I'm consistently ranking on WOL while staying in bear as long as I have a vengeance stack, which seems to go against the common thoughts on what is best. I could obviously do testing on my own - swap to kitty whenever possible regardless of vengeance and then compare to previous attempts I've done for each fight - but in the interest of sharing knowledge and promoting discussion I thought it may be a good idea to post here and get the community's take on the matter.

#95 lairpie

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:17 PM

Looking at logs of bears vs bearcats is also going to get you a pretty skewed dataset because people that are popping between forms to try and maximize damage are quite likely going to have much better gear for doing so (like agi trinkets on, and lots of agi gems compared to stam) and are simply more likely to care about maximizing their damage. Also people that are more into the whole bearcat type thing are far more likely to be doing everything they can do let the other tank do as much tanking as possible, meaning the full time bears would likely have high vengeance for more time than the bearcats would have, even if they had stayed in bear form.

Simple example: HM:Yor our warrior tanks for the entire fight other than about 20 seconds each phase. I don't even use my spec with perseverance in favor of my normal dps spec and I'm wearing full dps gear. On one hand, I'm probably trying to do a lot of damage much more than your average "I rolled a druid just to tank, cat form is ugly" type druid, so comparing our damage output is kinda silly. On the other hand, if the warrior and I were equally tanking, I'd be tanking for something close to 1/2 the time instead of 1/6 or whatever and would thus have had a lot more vengeance to worry about. Also, he does more damage by tanking more of the time while I do more by tanking less. Further, I lose little surviability being in cat form (more damage taken, more healing taken about evens out when you're not talking about big bursts, assuming you have NI) where as he takes more damage by swapping stances and doesn't gain anything to keep him alive).

#96 Milkisbest

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:15 PM

I've been reading all sorts of information on Feral Druid Bears and the majority of websites say the stat priority is this
Agility > Stamina > Dodge > Mastery > Expertise (26) => Crit > Hit Rating > Haste
They say Agility is the best stat for damage reduction however, as I am doing Heroic Dragon Soul at the moment I thought it would be good to substitute some agility for stamina as it would give healers more time to heal me. As I understand, diminishing returns has a great effect on your stats when you stack agility, which makes agility a less valuble stat, so what would you suggest would be the best idea ?
DREAM Paragon's tank has gone for around 80% stamina 20% mastery gemming, however has kept all his reforging to dodge. He has completely left out agility, I don't understand what to do any more, he has also ignored all of the socket bonus's. Can somebody give me a very detailed but simple reply. At the moment I have gone for 20 Agility+30 stamina gems as it is a good compromise between both of the stats and kept all my reforging to dodge.

#97 lairpie

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:24 PM

Very simple:
The answer to your question is a combination of not a big deal either way, and varying greatly based on a list of many factors such that there is no "right answer." That's why you see people doing a lot of different things with their gearing, reforging, gemming at all levels of play. So, the answer is either pick what you want to do and accept that its probably wrong about 50% of the time or go through a very non simple list of factors, how they affect your gear choice, and be prepared to regem/reforge a lot.

Factors include:
-Your skill at CD usage and the degree to which you're free to use them on random damage. If you're freely able to focus on using your cds, you can go very heavy avoidance and use cds to minimize the impact of bad rng. If you must use your CDs around specific events, sta gets a bit better.
-The degree to which you are distracted
-The degree to which your damage maters (tank dps is a pretty big factor in some 10m HM kills, particularly because its often one of the biggest places you can improve dps)
-The skill and class makeup of your healers
-Amount of the fight that is magic damage
-Your exact gear
-What percentage of the time you're actually tanking (for instance a druid would likely be spending significant portions of the fight dpsing on most of the fights in DS, depending on your other tank) which affects CD uptime / time tanking.
-Whether you are using this gear for damage too.
-The often overlooked factor of what particular events are actually threatening to you. For instance if the biggest threat to you is a cast time ability followed by a melee attack, sta and mastery are best because you're nearly garaunteed to get a SD proc during that cast, thus your mastery directly becomes effective health. If your healers run oom because you take a lot of damage go for more avoidance. If the fight is mostly actually raid damage and each attack you avoid is a heal that someone else can get, avoidance. If you're getting smashed and the healing on others isn't very urgent, get more sta. If your healers are running oom because they're afraid to ever not have you topped off, get more sta.

Thinking through stuff like this is far from simple, but its really the only way you're going to come to a conclusion that's actually right for your situation. Alternately just pick something, memorize the arguments why that setup is good and pretend the fights where its not ideal don't matter as much.

#98 Blackmere

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:30 PM

The general guideline that Ferals from top ranked guilds will tell you is that Agility is best for everything UP TO progression content. When you are doing things like Heroic DS, high stamina is a must due to the high amounts and high frequency of damage bursts. Combine that with the amount of magic damage (which agility does not help you survive in any way) and the mechanics of the last 3 bosses in Heroic DS, Stamina easily wins out over stacking agility until you get to a certain HP area, which is really only attainable with Heroic DS gear.

Once you get into farming content and higher gear levels, you can easily substitue agility for where you have stamina.

#99 Melthu

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

Bumping to keep this thread in the default 30 day filter. Note for any newcomers: The OP of this thread is still up to date for the 4.3 patch.

#100 Aldrir

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:46 PM

Is there an update planned for MoP?




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