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4.3 Discipline Priest Compendium


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#21 Zaq

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 06:28 PM

The one and only time Mastery surpasses either crit or haste pure shield spam which is not generally a sustainable or advised healing strategy.


I Don't know about anyone else, but I cast an ungodly number of Pw:s on Spine. Like Wotlk-esque. That's a pretty limited niche, and I'm not about to gear for that one fight. But mastery is wildly good there.
Edit: That's on 25, it's much less worthwhile on 10.
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#22 xylanthar

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 07:45 PM

That's true to an extent, but when playing at a high level as Disc there is very little significant playstyle difference other than "are you A/A or ToT". The stat weights may change slightly based on spell selection, but for the most part there is only going to be one reasonably accurate priority list.

Phrased another way, there is no playstyle you can choose that will make Crit better than Haste that isn't clearly suboptimal.


I think that was intended to mean that a single priest can't have more than one down at a time, even if you somehow get the cooldown low enough, similar to ProM.



That is primarily what I meant by playstyle. My priest is the alt raid healer and AoE/Raid heals are generally well taken care of by a druid and holy priest, so I find myself staying on the tanks and using PoH only on stack phases, this was in FL however. In our 10man DS alt run last week I was still forged all over the place(more of a balance I suppose you could say) and I really did have trouble on Zon keeping the tank up, 7-8 stacks on that fight + psychic drain and I find myself begging for faster GH times and/or more absorbs. I reforged to all mastery and lost a bit of haste, but the cast time on my GH/PoH remains the same. I'll comment on how well this works after our alt raid this week.

Below is an example from the Zon kill(keep in mind this is my old reforge), I was primarily on the tank but was using PoH during the stack phases. My uptimes on DA seem low compared to other fights I have seen, I am not in BiS by any means, 380 average ilvl. Honestly I compare myself with other discs and get lost figuring out how well I do.

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#23 Vinexia

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:59 PM

It is worth mention that this Teir we are likely to see the return of the "soft cap" for haste in heroic gear with BT up. I personally am only off by .04s with 2276 haste and 2/3 darkness.

On the flip side the amount of 1.5s baseline spells I use in my mixture is quite limited. So perhaps its a theoretical soft cap but in practicality haste may still be stronger then Crit (and Mastery but hoping that goes w/o saying at this point).

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:06 PM

Mastery > Crit and arguably Haste for throughput once you see PoH/Shield become >~75% of your healing done.

The more raid healing you do, the better and better mastery is because PoH is a guaranteed DA, which seriously devalues crit, and haste takes more itemization to achieve a 1% increase in healing.


Indeed, very incorrect. I can see Mastery playing a much larger role in 10m, but certainly not 25m.

#25 UnholY_Prince

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:18 AM

Mastery is not good for PoH at all. Each point of Mastery increases absorption by 2.5%, but Divine Aegis is only 30% of your PoH healing. The 2.5% increase is multiplicative, not additive. Meaning 1 full point you put into Mastery doesn't increase your DA to 32.5%, it gives you an extra 2.5% of 30% of your PoH. If your PoH hits for 10k, you get a DA shield of 3k. One full point of mastery only gives you 2.5% of 3k, 75 points of DA absorption. Crit, and Haste moreso, gives you much larger returns for PoH spam.

Stacking Mastery is only worth it if you're spamming Shields.

#26 Kimano

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 01:42 AM

This is incorrect. Crit has more impact on PoH spam than does Mastery because PoH double dips on crit -- not only is the heal bigger, but the resulting DA is twice the size of what it should be. You can test this for yourself -- non-crit DAs from PoH are going to be around 3k on a 7k heal, but a 14k heal results in around a 12k DA. You can mentally think of this as the game saying "okay, the PoH heal was X make a DA of 0.3*X*Mastery as guaranteed by the spell. Oh, it was a crit, make a DA of 0.3*X*Mastery and combine with the existing one." The result is that crit is significantly stronger than Mastery for raid healing.

The one and only time Mastery surpasses either crit or haste pure shield spam which is not generally a sustainable or advised healing strategy.


Then your own spreadsheet disagrees with you. Putting in generic and equivalent values for secondaries (7k int, 2.5k spirit, 10k sp, 1k mastery/haste/crit), using the PoH spam value, Mastery surpasses Crit in every way (burst, sustained and normalized).

Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.


Not to mention, even if crit was slightly ahead, I'd still much prefer the guaranteed (if slightly lower) throughput from mastery over crit (but only for raid healing).

My copy of the spreadsheet was changed and working incorrectly, apologies for the confusion.

#27 nightlily

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:19 AM

While Heartsong does have a 20 second internal cooldown, compared to Power Torrent's 45 seconds, it also has a lower chance to proc (at 25%, compared to Power Torrent's 33%). It's difficult to have a higher uptime on something that you have a reduced chance to proc, in the first place.


The kind of difference in chance to proc that you are considering is negligible. Consider this.. every single heal, hot, dot (say holy fire dot), including every target hit with PoH and PoM is a chance to proc. Even if we were considering an absolute worst case scenario and we were purely casting on a tank .. averaging one cast per 2 seconds.. the chance that Heartsong would NOT proc within 25 seconds (the point at which Power Torrent would come off cooldown if we had used that instead) is 2.4% or (3/4)^13 where 13 is the number of heals we did, and 3/4 is the chance for one heal to fail to proc Heartsong. In a typical fight we will have more than 13 heals within 25 seconds, so yes the uptime on Heartsong is higher, because the ICD is so much lower. In my experience the difference is significant.

Oh, also Heartsong lasts for 15 seconds, while Power Torrent lasts for only 12 seconds.. clearly the uptimes won't be the same. With a quick search I found some testing that has the average time between procs for these enchants at 51 and 28 seconds, which is an average of 6 seconds (after the ICD) to proc PT and an average of 8 seconds to proc Heartsong.. resulting in 54% uptime on Heartsong and 24% uptime on PT.

I would be interested to see your findings, when you incorporate Rapture into the formulas for both enchants and how it would affect the returns from each.


You know, I've been so busy I forgot about this, but I can add some more detailed calculations for the sake of completeness.

#28 arison

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:35 AM

You don't really need a mathematical model, just look at WoL parses. PT is right at 20% uptime and Heartsong tends to be anywhere from 50-65%. The current priest spreadsheet models both enchants (with a lower estimate of 50% for Heartsong).
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#29 nightlily

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 10:06 AM

Good point, I was just explaining *why* the uptime was higher. The estimates given weren't modeled they were someone's in-game testing just for a ballpark figure.

#30 nightlily

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:15 AM

Using the formulas given for spirit mana regen, I am entering in my raid-buffed values.. which are currently 8121 Intellect, and 3092 Spirit (I had to reforge for holy recently, don't judge).

My combat regen is going to be: BASE_REGEN+ (sqrt (Intellect)*Spirit*.016725)*COMBAT_MODIFIER

1029.5+(sqrt 8121 * 3092 *.016725) = 3359 mp5

With Heartsong (200 Spirit) that is:
1029.5+(sqrt 8121 * 3292 *.016725*.5) = 3510 mp5

with Power Torrent (500 Intellect * 1.15 * 1.05 (intellect modifiers)=604) *rounded
1029.5+(sqrt 8625 * 3092 *.016725*.5) = 3431 mp5

We'll suppose the lower end uptime values of 20% and 50%..

With Heartsong we are increasing our mp5 value by 3510-3359=151 mp5 x 50% of the fight for 75.5 mp5
With Power Torrent the increase is 72 mp5 x 20% of the fight for 14.4 mp5

Now for Rapture.

Rapture grants 7% of max mana, and every point of intellect increases max mana by 15. Therefore, my max mana will be increased by 500 * 1.15 * 1.05 (int multipliers) * 15 = 9056, when I have a Rapture proc I will gain 7% of that value in addition to my normal rapture gain. 9056 * 7% = 634 (if you have 2% meta-gem it's 637)

Now for the difficult part.. if we're maximizing our rapture potential we'll still end up with some unavoidable delay between Raptures. The ICD is 12 seconds but generally we'll consider 14 seconds to be more typical. Our Power Torrent buff is up for 12 seconds, so we have a high likelihood that within those 12 seconds we'll get a Rapture proc. Due to the ICD, we cannot gain a rapture proc more than once per PT. Our probability for gaining Rapture within the 12 second window in this case is 12/14~85.7%. A power torrent uptime of 20% comes to one buff every 60 seconds.. with 634 mana from rapture per proc that is 634/12 = 52.8 mp5 (if we gain rapture every time) and x 85.7% chance to gain rapture = 45.3 mp5 on average. The net result of this is 59.7 mp5 for Disc priests, which is still not as much as Heartsong.

That's not to say I'm advocating Heartsong for Disc, in any way. However, I do consider it an option for Holy Pallies and priests.. who get more regen from Heartsong in the first place, don't get a significant value from PT, and need regen more than us.

#31 Dalarana

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 09:46 AM

Surely if your going to be PoH spamming you would want to create a nice synergy between haste, mastery and crit? It's only when you start using other spells the stat weights change.

If so far the discussion is about which stat is more important, all points look pretty valid. Mastery for increased DA, crit for larger heal and haste for the obvious. So why not just try to stack equally? I can't talk by the way, I'm a sucker for my haste.

#32 UnholY_Prince

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:29 PM

Surely if your going to be PoH spamming you would want to create a nice synergy between haste, mastery and crit? It's only when you start using other spells the stat weights change.

If so far the discussion is about which stat is more important, all points look pretty valid. Mastery for increased DA, crit for larger heal and haste for the obvious. So why not just try to stack equally? I can't talk by the way, I'm a sucker for my haste.


Except if you read this thread you'd realize Mastery is absolutely horrible for Divine Aegis, and by proxy, PoH spamming.

#33 Dalarana

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:48 AM

Even if it was/is a horrible stat for DA, mastery is still going to be useful for PW:S. I still favour crit for PoH even though it's a little rng, would be nice to get a parse on ultraxion to see whether PoH spamming with mastery would be better since your DA's should be stacking on people at that point with blue crystal. Although that's the only encounter I've had to spam it.

#34 UnholY_Prince

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:49 PM

Crit is going to be more useful for a Hasted PoH. Not to mention you do 75% of the fight without the Blue buff if you're waiting. Just look at the math, I don't understand how you can think Mastery could even be close to any other stat for buffing PoH.

#35 arison

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:59 PM

There seems to be some kind of long-standing fixation on Mastery as a stat. Guys. Listen. Mastery sucks for us. The one and only time it is *ever* worth using is for when you are spamming shields. There look to be very few fights where that is the case (if any at all). Certainly there were none in the last tier, and I'm pretty sure there are none in this tier. Never stack mastery. If you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or simcraft, stop offering advice or suggestions to others, stop wondering outloud, and stop being emotional about the stat. There is irrefutable math on the subject, backed by both simcraft and the spreadsheet.

Mastery seemed like a great stat back in early Cataclysm largely because no one seemed to really look closely, and disc priests largely self-identified with shielding. The sad truth is, with the various tweaks to mana cost and duration in early T11, shield spamming is gone, and given mastery's very disappointing impact on other heals, the result is clear: Mastery is our worst stat.

Let me put it another way; unless you know why Mastery is bad, unless you have spent some time in the sims or the spreadsheet, you simply don't know enough to offer opinions on the subject. Stop spreading misinformation. Stop confusing people who don't read the entire thread (though they should, of course). Mastery is bad except in one very specific case and that case basically doesn't exist this tier (or, at least, isn't yet known to exist for certain).

Let go of Mastery. It's not the stat you should stack.
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#36 haley

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:35 PM

I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

#37 Townkill

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:30 PM

I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.


I was debating this myself, since really it only affects POM, and fort/Shadow besides the baseline PWS. Granted you lose runspeed, but I hardly ever find myself solely renewing/PWS spamming.

#38 Guest_Amnesty_*

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.


Mastery isn't going down, it is down, and has been for quite some time. It's long overdue that the Priest community is finally coming to that realization that Mastery is our worst stat. Inner Fire is simply throughput, as opposed to conservation you'll be receiving through Inner Will. If you're only using PW:S for exclusively Rapture procs, Inner Fire should be the clear choice.

#39 Guest_Amnesty_*

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:21 PM

There seems to be some kind of long-standing fixation on Mastery as a stat. Guys. Listen. Mastery sucks for us. The one and only time it is *ever* worth using is for when you are spamming shields. There look to be very few fights where that is the case (if any at all). Certainly there were none in the last tier, and I'm pretty sure there are none in this tier. Never stack mastery. If you can't be bothered to use the spreadsheet or simcraft, stop offering advice or suggestions to others, stop wondering outloud, and stop being emotional about the stat. There is irrefutable math on the subject, backed by both simcraft and the spreadsheet.

Mastery seemed like a great stat back in early Cataclysm largely because no one seemed to really look closely, and disc priests largely self-identified with shielding. The sad truth is, with the various tweaks to mana cost and duration in early T11, shield spamming is gone, and given mastery's very disappointing impact on other heals, the result is clear: Mastery is our worst stat.

Let me put it another way; unless you know why Mastery is bad, unless you have spent some time in the sims or the spreadsheet, you simply don't know enough to offer opinions on the subject. Stop spreading misinformation. Stop confusing people who don't read the entire thread (though they should, of course). Mastery is bad except in one very specific case and that case basically doesn't exist this tier (or, at least, isn't yet known to exist for certain).

Let go of Mastery. It's not the stat you should stack.


Amen is about all I can say, amen.

#40 haley

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:23 AM

If you're only using PW:S for exclusively Rapture procs, Inner Fire should be the clear choice.


True true, but especially in 10mans you won´t use your shield just for rapture. It´s kinda hard to figure out the point where IW becomes the better choice as every fight has another amount of Shield / PoM use (things like pi, ps not counted).

Morchok 10man hc, where you can (have to) shield the whole freakin fight it´s no discussion, but i think there is a, lets call it brakepoint, where the count of pw:s and pom will lead to IW instead of IF.




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