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4.3 Discipline Priest Compendium


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#41 Guest_Amnesty_*

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 02:20 AM

True true, but especially in 10mans you won´t use your shield just for rapture. It´s kinda hard to figure out the point where IW becomes the better choice as every fight has another amount of Shield / PoM use (things like pi, ps not counted).

Morchok 10man hc, where you can (have to) shield the whole freakin fight it´s no discussion, but i think there is a, lets call it brakepoint, where the count of pw:s and pom will lead to IW instead of IF.


10m v. 25. does play a role in its use, I'll agree with you there. However, 10m v. 25m in general brings forth a lot of discrepancies between the role of PW:S in general.

#42 Rijndael

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:07 AM

What people forget is that even in shield spammy fights like Morchok 10 H, you still use lots of direct heals, and haste is both far better for direct heals than mastery, and quite decent for shield spam throughput (due to gcd reduction).

I think even on Morchok 10 H haste is probably better, overall. (Of course in practice people gear/reforge for the toughest fight, and Morchok is the easiest heroic. Other heroics that I have seen definitely do not seem to favor mastery for disc).

#43 Goresaw

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:40 PM

I recently killed heroic morchok on 10 man as a disc priest, and I think for that fight I still prefer haste stacking and using inner fire over inner will. The fight is very short, so mana is just not a problem. I don't see why you would use inner will unless you were having mana problems, and even then adding more spirit at the cost of a lesser stat like mastery or haste might be better than sacrificing the significant spell power from inner fire.

#44 smolder_shadows

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 01:02 AM

I recently killed heroic morchok on 10 man as a disc priest, and I think for that fight I still prefer haste stacking and using inner fire over inner will. The fight is very short, so mana is just not a problem. I don't see why you would use inner will unless you were having mana problems, and even then adding more spirit at the cost of a lesser stat like mastery or haste might be better than sacrificing the significant spell power from inner fire.


Yeah, you can do one of two things:
1) Check you regen Cooldowns rotation (Power Infusion, Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope) incluiding rapture CD, if its fine or wrong (Heavy spike damage timer).
2) Reforge for extra spirit if you have mana issue( Haste then mastery IMO).

I prefer no use inner will, because if you have Inner Fire always, you can react more fast to incoming damage(Like a fast dispel or heal for disrupting shadows in Warlord Zon'ozz) and you will not lose you GCD changing wills.

I hope in that fight test the shield spam with Heart of Unliving and H-Jaws of Defeat to check if its viable still using the Jaws, or change for Seal of Seven Sign for more HPS, and 18-20 points of mastery.

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 08:40 PM

I´m curious if it´s worth to use inner fire instead of inner will with mastery going down :/ Wonderful, something new to calculate.

We have known Mastery was bad since Firelands. You should have been healing with Inner Fire already, a full tier ago, unless you somehow didn't have the mana to survive.

I was debating this myself, since really it only affects POM, and fort/Shadow besides the baseline PWS. Granted you lose runspeed, but I hardly ever find myself solely renewing/PWS spamming.

As far as the run speed goes, enchant your boots with Lavawalker. It has been the recommended enchant the entire expansion, nearly every spec in the game should have run speed on their boots. In fact, it is the recommended enchant at the top of this Compendium. If you are going to post at least respectfully read the OP.

#46 Guest_Amnesty_*

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:07 PM

What are the thoughts on the new meta changes? The fact that Burning Shadowspirit Diamond is now an increased 3% critical effect, as opposed to critical strike? This is going to be a regen v. throughput debate I'm sure, does anyone plan on utilizing this meta?

#47 Townkill

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 12:34 AM

As far as the run speed goes, enchant your boots with Lavawalker. It has been the recommended enchant the entire expansion, nearly every spec in the game should have run speed on their boots. In fact, it is the recommended enchant at the top of this Compendium. If you are going to post at least respectfully read the OP.

Ive always gone with the run speed enchant, every expansion and spec possible as you stated.

I just really followed the idea with the amount of mana saved solely on PWS which I do for things like borrowed time procs that Will would of been the better choice. Also just the disc priests I talked to from my server as well generally recommended inner will. Was simply saying I dont really agree with it, because of the raw throughput from Fire. Was just pointing out the obvious losses, and only uses inner will gives.

But hey, just in case your wondering I also read the full 34 pages of the other thread. Doesn't ever hurt to give and get opinions though either. Now that Ive run full dragon soul I also dont find the extra speed to be that useful at least in comparison of the extra speed being useful throughout Firelands to my opinion of play.

#48 Dalarana

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:14 PM

What are the thoughts on the new meta changes? The fact that Burning Shadowspirit Diamond is now an increased 3% critical effect, as opposed to critical strike? This is going to be a regen v. throughput debate I'm sure, does anyone plan on utilizing this meta?


It's highly unlikely that it will change much at all, your still fighting a fairly high rng stat like crit. It's most probably brought it ever do slightly closer to the %mana meta but not enough for me to switch. %mana still gives me better Rapture returns. I can't see a 3% increase in crit effect being especially huge. Even on a 60k GH it's still only an extra what..900hp? It's not going to be a life saver.

#49 arison

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:32 PM

As a throughput meta, it's decent Take a look at your WoL report from a raid, see how much healing you did from crits, and multiply by 1.03 (it makes the entire heal 3% larger, not just the crit bonus, so you get an effective 206% heal on crits rather than 200%); this ignores overheal (which will be some) but overall gives you an idea of the impact it will have, which should be somewhere just under 1%.

Thinking of a stat or talent or gear choice as "pff it's only a percent, it isn't going to save a life" is not the right way to think about it. Sometimes tanks or raiders *do* die with tiny overkills. Likewise, calling crit an RNG stat, while technically correct, isn't particularly fair either -- remember you crit fairly often (most people should be around 25-30% raid buffed because of our large int pool and 5% crit from various classes/specs). Crits on tanks are very common and important because of Inspiration, and crits when raid healing likewise mean other healers' smart heals get to heal someone else. So while it is true any single heal may or may not crit, over a large sequence of heals, many will, and those are important.

Basically you should use the 3% crit gem unless you are running low on mana at times. 2% max mana is very good for disc because most of our regen is based on our mana pool (rapture, fiend, hymn, archangel, replenishment, etc... with rapture being the dominant one).
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#50 nightlily

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:23 AM

As per the Burning metagem and the Ember metagem

I've been looking over a fight where we had high single-target healing, that is.. PW:S accounted for the most heals and also rapture gains were fairly consistent, such a fight should put the ember metagem in the best light possible and put the burning meta gem in a much weaker position. The fight I am using is Warmaster Blackthorn, and the reason we had low AoE healing was because this is a 10m fight and because our fire mages also soaked the swirls.

The total mana gains during the fight with ember was 401,280, with that amount of mana returns (from all % based effects) the net mana gain of that from the 2% meta-gem is 7868, with 3k mana added to total mana pool (estimating based on 150k mana pool.) that comes to a total of 10k mana from the 2% bonus over the entire fight (almost exactly 6 minutes long.)

For the healing done, I combined total crit healing and DA, after adjusting DA to take into account 30% bonus from normal PoH's. The amount the Burning metagem could have added was 475112. There's no easy way for me to see how much of those crits overhealed, but the overall overheal for the fight was 20%.

Since it seems unlikely that I'm going to get even 1/2 of that amount of healing out of 10k mana, and the meta will perform even better on the typical AoE fight, I just can't justify not taking the Burning Meta Gem. You would have to be sure that the vast majority of your crits overheal. Otherwise, the mana you are saving is at the cost of needing even more mana and time spent to make up for having less throughput.

#51 StijnH

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:29 PM

The enchants list is missing

#52 xylanthar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:48 PM

Indeed, very incorrect. I can see Mastery playing a much larger role in 10m, but certainly not 25m.


I could agree with this, I had been doing 10mans up until last week and I notice a definite difference in my healing from stacking mastery. In 10mans I find myself PoHing a lot and shield spamming more. For instance, on gunship.. its VERY nice to have that 35k shield to throw on someone to take a shadow bolt hit, its VERY nice to stack 6k DA per PoH cast vs 3.5k in that situation as well while you wait for the big explosion.

Obviously I am not going to go do a full reforge between fights (unless I'm asked really nicely) to switch between haste and mastery based on a per fight basis. I'm fully reforged mastery ATM and I love it. I reforged to reach the holy haste plateau (1290) for part of the 25man and ended up going back to disc while speced that way. Truth is I am coming out closer to the top of the healing meter being reforged to mastery, and most of that is DA not PW:S.

I see this is the prime argument with Priests, some people have math to back it up, others are in top world guilds. Who is right? That kids, is for you to discover for yourself. Call me stupid, or any other word.. but I don't believe in Math when it comes to healing. Sure we can get pure throughput based calculations based on our stats, however a healers role is always changing, always evolving based on the raid comp, your internet connection, and the alignment of Mars and Saturn. The point is, as a DPS you can take a math equation and say "these are your stats, this is your rotation, now push your two buttons and shutup" and if you follow that, you will generally be on par with the rest of your class. Hell with healing in t13, a feral druid with a 4piece can change the whole ballgame of what we do. Just keep this in mind as you argue math about something that is more of a "feel it" type of scenario.

#53 UnholY_Prince

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:18 PM

Yes healing is more about the situation and group healing dynamic than DPS. Yes there's a degree of judgement involved. But there's a difference between using your own data over math, and ignoring math all together. That's what you're suggesting. You could have 0 mastery and DA would still be a high % of your healing when spamming PoH, that's how the class works. Reforging Mastery is not giving you 6k DA shields over 3.5k without. Stacking Mastery will never, ever be better for PoH spamming than Crit or Haste. You're being willfully ignorant of the information presented to you if you think otherwise.

#54 Dalarana

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:28 PM

I would prefer, in 10 or 25 man raids to be able to cast my ProH 10% faster than worry about a 1-2k increase in my DA. After stacking mastery, and then switching to haste and not worrying about any "plateaus", as long as your judgement of spell use is good, there is no need by far to stack mastery, you get enough of it from current gear levels.

If your judging your stats merely on you wanting to proc DA's then stacking haste then crit mean your procing more DA's over an entire fight rather than slower heals, less chance to crit = less DA.

There arnt that many times as disc I'm sat there spamming ProH in any fight apart from the last minute on ultraxion or stack phases on a couple of other bosses.

#55 Goresaw

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:19 PM

Has anybody done any serious testing on the disc 4 pc T13 bonus? I.E. How much of an HPS gain it is, how much of an MP5 gain? I am currently sitting at 3 pieces and, since there are very attractive off-set pieces in this tier (shoulders and robe off of heroic morchok, for instance), I'm trying to figure out how much I should value getting that 4 pc bonus and am having difficulty with that. Since I don't have it, I can't test it myself.

Has anybody else done so?

#56 xylanthar

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:10 PM

Yes healing is more about the situation and group healing dynamic than DPS. Yes there's a degree of judgement involved. But there's a difference between using your own data over math, and ignoring math all together. That's what you're suggesting. You could have 0 mastery and DA would still be a high % of your healing when spamming PoH, that's how the class works. Reforging Mastery is not giving you 6k DA shields over 3.5k without. Stacking Mastery will never, ever be better for PoH spamming than Crit or Haste. You're being willfully ignorant of the information presented to you if you think otherwise.


I apologize if my message seemed to suggest people should ignore math altogether (I kinda did make it sound that way), and information here as that wasn't my intent. My main goal in that post was to suggest that you cannot try to make a blanket statement for a healer. People should keep an open mind and TRY THINGS FOR THEMSELVES instead of reading a forum, then copying what that person does. Honestly I suck ass at math, so when I look at it I just have to take whoevers' word that wrote it that they are right. When I read information that disagrees with that math, that leaves me to rely on my personal experiences.

So on a fight like Ultraxion where I get the blue crystal, should I still stack haste there? What would be the point, the buff already gives you haste, and if I DA spam that fight.. crit is a bit RNGish for that situation, which leaves us with mastery.. I know you've said in an earlier post that this isn't the case, but I have been doing very well on Ultraxion this way. I will re-forge for next week and see where I'm at.

The OP suggests that we should balance the stats, yet some people have posted that HASTE IS KING. What is the real answer? If you can show me math that actually makes sense (i.e. x amount of haste = x cast time on GH/PoH) and how that haste rating relates to the balancing of other stats then I would have more direction. I don't really care about how haste affects Renew as disc, I don't even use Renew as disc regularly and I don't know any Disc priests who do. I'll re-iterate that I'm not a main raider (casual ftw) so I am not in heroics atm, not pushing them.. I'm just a lonely priest looking for the answers to life.

#57 Dalarana

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:03 PM

Problem is your using a single encounter to work out the bigger picture, or that's how it reads.
The blue crystal is present after 3 1/2 minutes giving you 2 1/2 minutes until enrage. Less if your raid dps is solid. Yes it's 100% haste, but that adds to your existing haste.

Yes Crit is 'rngish' but it does make a BIG difference to the fact that (if we are using ultraxion as an example) your casting ProH every second. But where do you sit for the other three and a half minutes if you have stacked mastery? You'll be doing massive amounts of overheal when your other 2 healers have red and green and are healing the heck out of the rest of the raid.

I have also had my own questions about how to reforge. What's better or worse but just using common sense with them should allow you to conclude that haste will always be better than mastery until DA gets a much better % of the heal.

#58 xylanthar

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:06 PM

Problem is your using a single encounter to work out the bigger picture, or that's how it reads.
The blue crystal is present after 3 1/2 minutes giving you 2 1/2 minutes until enrage. Less if your raid dps is solid. Yes it's 100% haste, but that adds to your existing haste.

Yes Crit is 'rngish' but it does make a BIG difference to the fact that (if we are using ultraxion as an example) your casting ProH every second. But where do you sit for the other three and a half minutes if you have stacked mastery? You'll be doing massive amounts of overheal when your other 2 healers have red and green and are healing the heck out of the rest of the raid.

I have also had my own questions about how to reforge. What's better or worse but just using common sense with them should allow you to conclude that haste will always be better than mastery until DA gets a much better % of the heal.


To answer your question honestly, I sit at around 22k HPS before getting the blue crystal, and I finish up the fight ~1-2mil behind the person with the red crystal. I guess I am focusing on THAT fight a bit for my argument, and it is a gimmick fight. It just seems to be the only fight I have issues with. Two healing that fight is different, I took the red crystal and ended up at 38k HPS by the end (we wiped at 6% 2-healing)

My personal choice is I really would like to get my PoH/GH cast time to 2.2 seconds w/o buffs.. but everytime I have tried a haste type reforge I end up falling behind on healing.

I'll actually get a log up next week of the fight, the first time I killed it, I forgot to turn on logging, and last night I was in a pug so I forgot yet again to turn it on.

#59 Goresaw

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:02 PM

So on a fight like Ultraxion where I get the blue crystal, should I still stack haste there? What would be the point, the buff already gives you haste, and if I DA spam that fight.. crit is a bit RNGish for that situation, which leaves us with mastery.. I know you've said in an earlier post that this isn't the case, but I have been doing very well on Ultraxion this way. I will re-forge for next week and see where I'm at.

The OP suggests that we should balance the stats, yet some people have posted that HASTE IS KING. What is the real answer? If you can show me math that actually makes sense (i.e. x amount of haste = x cast time on GH/PoH) and how that haste rating relates to the balancing of other stats then I would have more direction. I don't really care about how haste affects Renew as disc, I don't even use Renew as disc regularly and I don't know any Disc priests who do. I'll re-iterate that I'm not a main raider (casual ftw) so I am not in heroics atm, not pushing them.. I'm just a lonely priest looking for the answers to life.


I'm really interested to see your logs for comparison. After looking at your armory, you and I are at very similar gear levels, but it sounds like we are having very different experiences as far as the stat weightings healing ultraxion in 10 man. I follow a haste > crit > mastery stat weighting personally, and keep mastery just about as low as possible. Here are my most recent ultraxion logs:

Two healing it along with a holy priest, and taking the green buff and then later the blue buff:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Three heal wipe with the green buff:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Three heal with the red buff:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

For me, this fight is as close to what the spreadsheet models as pure PoH spam as it gets. I cast PW: S on this fight only for the rapture procs, cast penance occasionally to get grace stacks on the tank, and cast prayer of mending on cooldown. At all other times I am purely spamming PoH.

As you can see, even with very little mastery my divine aegis is my second largest source of healing, behind PoH itself.
Please do post some logs of your ultraxion attempts with your current gear setup if you get a chance, as I'd really like to compare them to see what effect it has.

#60 Guest_Amnesty_*

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:24 PM

The fact is that DA itself is poorly affected by Mastery. If you choose to go against the grain and ignore the cold hard facts, you're only going to be gimping yourself. There is no argument, unless you have the logs and math to prove otherwise.




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