# [Prot 5.0 Beta] - Code Monkey

## 62 posts in this topic

Posted

GAnK still exsists. All tanks lost their aoe taunt as well.

Divine guardian and exorcism are both gone yes. However, the reduced judgment cool down and 30 yard range makes up for Exorcism.

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Posted

The results are in: MoP Block Calculations - Part 3

These results are saying that mastery is in dead last place, behind hit, expertise, haste, and even armor

Short version: for damage mitigation (i.e. TDR), the stat priority is dodge/parry>hit/exp>haste>armor>mastery. Mastery lags haste by a factor of 2 and lags dodge/parry by a factor of 4. The primary culprit is our active mitigation, primarily the guaranteed block mechanic, though diminishing returns and two-roll blocking aren't doing mastery any favors.

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Posted

Interesting find. Also interesting to see the HPG also consistent across both formulas. I agree that the maserty does need to be changed. I did notice that you only compared vs the SotR maintenence buff and not WoG. It should be noted that in magic intense fights that WoG will most likely be the go-to HP dump, which is also based on HPG but has zero interactions with Maserty.

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Posted

Based on Theck's numbers, this will make some dps plate gear pretty attractive for tanks. Let's compare a sample tank piece (with 100 dodge and 100 mastery) to a dps piece (100 crit and 100 hit).

Per Theck's calcs, the normalized damage mitigation per rating is as follows:

dodge = 1.8572

mastery = 0.4346

crit = 0

hit = 1.4717

haste = 1.0564

Tank piece:

100 dodge = 185.72

100 mastery = 43.46

total: 229.18

DPS piece:

100 crit (reforged to 40 dodge) = 40 * 1.8572 = 74.288

100 hit = 147.17

total: 221.458

The DPS piece is 96.6% as effective as the tank piece, and provides a little bit of crit as a bonus. If the DPS piece instead had haste and hit, its score rises by (60 * 1.0564), or 63.384, for a total score of 284.842. This is now 24.2% *better* than the tank piece.

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Posted

You'd have to take DR into consideration when making a dodge/party calculation as well as any stamina differences. Ironically, Ret paladins are also straying from mastery gear, and possibly some other specs as well.

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Posted

You also left out the ability to reforge the mastery away to a more desirable stat (such as parry), propelling the tank piece further ahead.

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Posted

Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.

In terms of reforging mastery to parry on my dodge/mastery tank example, here's how it would turn out:

100 dodge = 185.72

60 mastery = 26.076

40 parry = 74.288

total = 286.084

So the dodge/mastery "tank" piece, reforged, is 29.1% better than the crit/hit "dps" piece (also reforged), but only 0.43% better than the haste/hit piece. Factor in diminishing returns on dodge/parry, and the haste/hit piece would likely be better.

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Posted

Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.

Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.

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Posted

Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.

I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.

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Posted

It should be noted that in magic intense fights that WoG will most likely be the go-to HP dump, which is also based on HPG but has zero interactions with Maserty.

Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.

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Posted

Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.

It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.

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Posted

It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.

It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.

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Posted

That is right, as one reasin why Bloodshiwld for DKs is attractive is that it works based on damage sustained. Would it be more true then to compare WoG to Rune Tap that has no cool down? It's an active mitigation tool through healing alone. I think that there will be a time and place to use WoG, just like there is for other abilities.

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Posted

I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.

As the ratings conversions get higher with each expansion, secondary stats will continue to lose ground compared to primary stats unless they radically change how primaries affect different abilities. That's the main cause of the difference between Wrath gemming and Cataclysm gemming. I'm not even sure the secondary stat boost will be enough for such gems to compete unless the socket bonus is regularly enough to cover the difference.

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Posted

It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.

There's nothing wrong with WoG being a situational ability (not that you're saying there is, but there does appear to be a sub-text of disapproval going on here). Everything is situational, really, or will be once the numbers are crunched thoroughly enough to figure out what ability is optimal in which situation. Its pretty much impossible to balance abilities such that you'd literally be indifferent to which one to use in a situation, and even if it were somehow possible, it would be pretty poor game design to create conflicting abilities. So, whether WoG is rarely used will be dependent on how rare are the situations in which its the optimal use of HoPo.

Which ability to use in which situation does indeed seem like it will be pretty clear. If the boss is meleeing you and its melee isn't absolutely trivial, then you use SotR. If there's a break in the incoming melee (boss is out of melee range for some reason, or goes into a cast-only mode, or its a tank swap/BQL thing) then switching over to WoG could be a reasonable choice (to help out with the healing) though if its a burn phase, sticking with SotR would probably be valid, depending on how the mechanics and your raid's capabilities shake out. Of course, if the boss is up flying around and out of melee, you could WoG, but you'd also want to make sure you'll have have enough HoPo to ensure a SotR as soon as it lands.

We don't know any of this stuff yet, so while it seems quite likely SotR will be the "go to" HoPo use, its impossible to say how often we will end up WoGing. In Patch-style fight, sure, pretty close to never. With Yor'sahj, I could see sticking with SotR since you'd probably want to keep doing damage to the boss while he's calling the blobs, and doing damage to the adds/blocking their attacks isn't a bad thing either, but I could also see an argument for using WoG a good bit as well(your damage against the adds is probably pretty trivial, and I doubt they hit hard enough to make the block more valuable than the WoG).

Edit - With regard to stat weights, nice work Theck! An added advantage, of course, with going with the dps gear is that you'd probably do a fair bit more damage with a bunch of hit/haste pieces (even reforged to dodge/parry). Certainly your first priority is staying alive, and it sounds like threat will be trivial to maintain, but tank dps still has value. If you can get 99% of the survivability with dps pieces and up your dps by 20% or whatever, that seems like an attractive choice (assuming the various assumptions we're working with hold). I'll be a little surprised if they let Mastery go live this awful.

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Posted

ShoR reworked as of the new Beta version. Shield of the Righteous - Spells - WOWDB

Now does damage, and increases block chance by 10% and amount blocked by 30% for 6 seconds. AND, gives you a 10% buff on healing received from your next self-targeted WoG, which stacks up to 5 times (no duration?).

Also, Guarded by the Light now increases block chance by 10% and causes your SP to equal 50% of your AP, period. So no bonus from INT or buffs or anything else (at least, according to the tooltip).

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Posted

Also, mastery will affect the potency of the WoG seal healing buff. ((10*5)+ Mastery Bonus)%.

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Posted

Divine Guardian made a comeback in this patch but it is slightly changed.

Called Devotion Aura, granting immunity to silence and interrupt effects and reducing all magic damage taken by 20%

It lasts 6 seconds with a 2 min cooldown and 40 yard range.

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Posted

Per MMO Champion today, regarding the new beta build (15650):

Protection:

Sanctuary now decreases damage taken by 15%, up from 10%.

Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 30% instead of increasing your block chance.

The tool tip for SotR: Instantly slam the target with your shield, causing 4,063 Holy damage, reducing the physical damage you take by 30% for 3 sec, and causing Bastion of Glory.

The Sanctuary change brings us up to the base damage reduction of warriors.

The guaranteed physical damage reduction (even from unblockable sources, apparently) is nice. Three seconds of damage reduction from SotR seems pretty low. Basically one boss swing or one telegraphed Big Attack. If there are any bosses with long swing timers (Baleroc fire sword, for example), you'd actually have to time your usage correctly to even get one "block".

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Posted

I replied in the other thread as well, but Prot's Sanctity of Battle affects some additional abilities: CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath, Consecration, Holy Wrath.

Additionally, Mastery affects both the direct damage reduction of SoR (pressumed through duration), and the effectiveness of Bastion of Glory. Finally, the Shield of the Righteous buff lasts for 6 sec, and not 3 as detailed in the tooltip. A longer duration could mean holding off on additional SoR-- and with it off the GCD, it is possible to use it when it is needed.

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Posted

Just for some thought after reading the WoG discussion with Selfless Healer on Beta currently stacking up to 3 times giving a cast free and mana free FoL every 3rd Judgment.

I haven't looked over the prot glyphs fully as it is my off spec but if there is one spot that can be pure choice (nothing else is too far superior) would using Glyph of Flash of Light - Paladin - Glyphs - Items - WOWDB while using a free FoL then WoG with 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory be something viable for survival?

Rough numbers from my Off spec Prot gear on beta @ 85:

Spell power: 4,422

Mastery: 29.1 (Increases effectiveness of BoG by 29.1%)

3hp WoG: 17.5k - 18k Heal

FoL: 17.5k - 18k Heal

3hp WoG w/ Glyph FoL: 19k - 20k Heal

3hp WoG w/ BoG 5 stack: 53.5k - 55k Heal

3hp WoG w/ BoG 5 stack and Glyph FoL: 58k - 62k Heal

At peak that is 90k healing in 2 GCDs every 6th HP dump. Without Glyph FoL or any FoL use it is still a 50k+ heal every 6th dump if used every time. It would seem that Blizzard wants Prot paladins to use WoG occasionally and if used every 6th HP dump, depending on the fight of course, is the glyph worth the small healing or just lack luster compared to other choices?

Do the other level 45 talents show more effective survival/mitigation for prot or does it just seem like too much work for what could be a small gain if there is even a free glyph slot without anything else being far superior?

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Posted

That's an interesting idea. FoL plus the glyph is, at the cost of another GCD, giving you 25k healing which is a respectable amount and will increase the range of situations in which WoG is a viable alternative to SHoR.

Its hard to imagine the other level 45 talents providing much for Prot (unless Sacred Shield ends up scaling REALLY well), and the glyph strikes me as a situationally valuable sort of thing. For example, I suspect I'll be using Glyph of Consecration quite often (certainly during 5-mans). But if a raid boss doesn't have any adds to pick up (devaluing the Consecration glyph) and heavy tank damage either isn't a hallmark of the fight or comes at unpredictable intervals (increasing the value of WoG relative to ShoR), then I could certainly see swapping to the FoL glyph.

So, I can see situations in which that would be a good idea, but I don't know how often those situations will be turning up during the first tier of raiding.

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Posted

Keep in mind that selfless healer is about healing someone else and the glyph increase healing on that specific target.

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Posted

Keep in mind that selfless healer is about healing someone else and the glyph increase healing on that specific target.

Selfless Healer reads as follows:

Selfless Healer Talent

Your successful Judgments reduce the cast time and mana cost of your next Flash of Light by 35% per stack and improves its effectiveness by 35% per stack when used to heal others. Stacks up to 3 times.

Glyph of Flash of Light reads as follows:

Glyph of Flash of Light

When you Flash of Light a target, it increases your next heal done to that target within 7 sec by 10%.

Your initial FoL will have its cast time reduced by 105%, but since you are using it on yourself its output will be normal. Then Glyph of FoL will proc, and increase the healing of the Word of Glory (which is also increased from Bastion of Glory).

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Posted

I should have tested it before posting. Wording is a bit poor then, I assumed all 3 effects required another target.