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[Prot 5.0 Beta] - Code Monkey


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#21 Theck

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:04 PM

Any form of a feasible rotation as of now? Looking at the list of abilities, I was thinking

SoT > HP Dump (SotR or WoG or EF) > HotR (Debuff only) > AS > CS > Judgement > HW > Cons for single target, and

SoR > HP Dump (SotR or WoG or EF) > HotR > AS > Judgement > Cons > HW for AoE.


It's impossible to tell until we have finalized damage values at 90. But at any rate, from playing around on beta the other day, the abilities (in order of DPS) are SotR (glyphed), AS, SotR (unglyphed), J, CS, HotR, Cons, HW.

DPS ordering is probably something like CS>J>AS>Cons>HW, with SotR in-between GCDs to dump HP. For tanking bosses, we'll probably be appending ^WB>^SS to the front of that rotation (notation: ^=keep up, WB=weakened blows, SS=sacred shield).

In all likelihood, the "max survival" rotation will be whatever maximizes holy power generation, which is why CS>J leads the pack. We have 4 GCDs to utilize AS and still gain the holy power, so it will be lower-priority than CS and J.

#22 Ronark

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:34 AM

SS is off the GCD, and I was looking at more mechanics wise what the rotation would be and less on DPS. For example as we both stated, WB will need to be kept up.

#23 Theck

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:22 PM

SS is off the GCD, and I was looking at more mechanics wise what the rotation would be and less on DPS. For example as we both stated, WB will need to be kept up.


Off-GCD abilities can still be included in the queue (or at least, they are in my FSM sims). So a full queue might look something like:
^WB>^SS>SotR5>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW

The sim is up and running already, actually. Of course, since we don't have ability damage models for level 90, I can't give you useful DPS breakdowns. But I can crank out statistics like HPG rate, SS/EF/SotR/WB uptime, and so on.

#24 Ronark

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 01:21 PM

If anyone is able to find out, can SS from more than 1 source be on a target at a time? The synergy it creates with Prots other finisher in the current build seems to be too great to swap out to EF or SH.

#25 Kobor

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

Something that was surprise for me that lot of old spells gone.

DP, DG, Multi taunt (sorry not remember its name now), Exorcism (from prot).

So we will not have big CD (-50%), but L90 talent will be used instead?


Edit: GotAK is back with the new build (15544)

#26 Ronark

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:19 PM

GAnK still exsists. All tanks lost their aoe taunt as well.

Divine guardian and exorcism are both gone yes. However, the reduced judgment cool down and 30 yard range makes up for Exorcism.

#27 Theck

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:36 PM

The results are in: MoP Block Calculations - Part 3

These results are saying that mastery is in dead last place, behind hit, expertise, haste, and even armor


Short version: for damage mitigation (i.e. TDR), the stat priority is dodge/parry>hit/exp>haste>armor>mastery. Mastery lags haste by a factor of 2 and lags dodge/parry by a factor of 4. The primary culprit is our active mitigation, primarily the guaranteed block mechanic, though diminishing returns and two-roll blocking aren't doing mastery any favors.

#28 Ronark

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:15 PM

Interesting find. Also interesting to see the HPG also consistent across both formulas. I agree that the maserty does need to be changed. I did notice that you only compared vs the SotR maintenence buff and not WoG. It should be noted that in magic intense fights that WoG will most likely be the go-to HP dump, which is also based on HPG but has zero interactions with Maserty.

#29 Womba

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:24 PM

Based on Theck's numbers, this will make some dps plate gear pretty attractive for tanks. Let's compare a sample tank piece (with 100 dodge and 100 mastery) to a dps piece (100 crit and 100 hit).

Per Theck's calcs, the normalized damage mitigation per rating is as follows:

dodge = 1.8572
mastery = 0.4346
crit = 0
hit = 1.4717
haste = 1.0564

Tank piece:

100 dodge = 185.72
100 mastery = 43.46
total: 229.18

DPS piece:

100 crit (reforged to 40 dodge) = 40 * 1.8572 = 74.288
100 hit = 147.17
total: 221.458

The DPS piece is 96.6% as effective as the tank piece, and provides a little bit of crit as a bonus. If the DPS piece instead had haste and hit, its score rises by (60 * 1.0564), or 63.384, for a total score of 284.842. This is now 24.2% *better* than the tank piece.

#30 Ronark

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:41 PM

You'd have to take DR into consideration when making a dodge/party calculation as well as any stamina differences. Ironically, Ret paladins are also straying from mastery gear, and possibly some other specs as well.

#31 Dudekman

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

You also left out the ability to reforge the mastery away to a more desirable stat (such as parry), propelling the tank piece further ahead.

#32 Womba

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:44 AM

Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.

In terms of reforging mastery to parry on my dodge/mastery tank example, here's how it would turn out:

100 dodge = 185.72
60 mastery = 26.076
40 parry = 74.288
total = 286.084

So the dodge/mastery "tank" piece, reforged, is 29.1% better than the crit/hit "dps" piece (also reforged), but only 0.43% better than the haste/hit piece. Factor in diminishing returns on dodge/parry, and the haste/hit piece would likely be better.

#33 Ronark

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:57 AM

Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.


Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.

#34 Womba

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:36 AM

Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.


I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.

#35 Meloree

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

It should be noted that in magic intense fights that WoG will most likely be the go-to HP dump, which is also based on HPG but has zero interactions with Maserty.


Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.

#36 Ronark

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:56 PM

Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.


It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.

#37 Meloree

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:18 AM

It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.


It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.

#38 Ronark

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

That is right, as one reasin why Bloodshiwld for DKs is attractive is that it works based on damage sustained. Would it be more true then to compare WoG to Rune Tap that has no cool down? It's an active mitigation tool through healing alone. I think that there will be a time and place to use WoG, just like there is for other abilities.

#39 Charybdis

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:14 PM

I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.


As the ratings conversions get higher with each expansion, secondary stats will continue to lose ground compared to primary stats unless they radically change how primaries affect different abilities. That's the main cause of the difference between Wrath gemming and Cataclysm gemming. I'm not even sure the secondary stat boost will be enough for such gems to compete unless the socket bonus is regularly enough to cover the difference.

#40 Wrathblood

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:24 PM

It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.


There's nothing wrong with WoG being a situational ability (not that you're saying there is, but there does appear to be a sub-text of disapproval going on here). Everything is situational, really, or will be once the numbers are crunched thoroughly enough to figure out what ability is optimal in which situation. Its pretty much impossible to balance abilities such that you'd literally be indifferent to which one to use in a situation, and even if it were somehow possible, it would be pretty poor game design to create conflicting abilities. So, whether WoG is rarely used will be dependent on how rare are the situations in which its the optimal use of HoPo.

Which ability to use in which situation does indeed seem like it will be pretty clear. If the boss is meleeing you and its melee isn't absolutely trivial, then you use SotR. If there's a break in the incoming melee (boss is out of melee range for some reason, or goes into a cast-only mode, or its a tank swap/BQL thing) then switching over to WoG could be a reasonable choice (to help out with the healing) though if its a burn phase, sticking with SotR would probably be valid, depending on how the mechanics and your raid's capabilities shake out. Of course, if the boss is up flying around and out of melee, you could WoG, but you'd also want to make sure you'll have have enough HoPo to ensure a SotR as soon as it lands.

We don't know any of this stuff yet, so while it seems quite likely SotR will be the "go to" HoPo use, its impossible to say how often we will end up WoGing. In Patch-style fight, sure, pretty close to never. With Yor'sahj, I could see sticking with SotR since you'd probably want to keep doing damage to the boss while he's calling the blobs, and doing damage to the adds/blocking their attacks isn't a bad thing either, but I could also see an argument for using WoG a good bit as well(your damage against the adds is probably pretty trivial, and I doubt they hit hard enough to make the block more valuable than the WoG).

Edit - With regard to stat weights, nice work Theck! An added advantage, of course, with going with the dps gear is that you'd probably do a fair bit more damage with a bunch of hit/haste pieces (even reforged to dodge/parry). Certainly your first priority is staying alive, and it sounds like threat will be trivial to maintain, but tank dps still has value. If you can get 99% of the survivability with dps pieces and up your dps by 20% or whatever, that seems like an attractive choice (assuming the various assumptions we're working with hold). I'll be a little surprised if they let Mastery go live this awful.




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