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#21 elfa

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

just my opinion (I'm not in the beta yet)

Divine star - the positioning element might make it rather useless for a healer.

Halo - sounds good. "with the greatest effect at 25 yds" - it may require positioning too, but it still seems better to me

Cascade - sounds good too. But: nothing is said about how it bounces (does it bounce only if the target is hit like PoM or does it bounce 4 times like, say, chain heal?). How does it choose its targets (health percentage or random?). It would be good if it chose allies if cast on allies and enemies of cast on enemies. If it the choice is random, it may not be that good.

How do you think?

#22 Havoc12

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:37 PM

I checked spirit shell a number of times and at the moment it appears to add a fixed amount of absorption and it does not stack but rather it overwrites. With my values (~10k spellpower and ~40% bonus from mastery) it absorbs 35k, not affected by grace or archangel. The values are based on the buff tooltip and on the combat log.

If I spam it on myself the buff is always 35k. If I let some of it get used up and cast a new one it just takes it back up to 35k.

As it stands spirit shell is pretty useless.

I am not particularly happy about the Absorb to heal conversion and the short buff timer. Coupled with a 3s cast time they really make the spell worse.

Cascade based on the description will hit ppl heal or damage them and immediately bounce off until it hits/heals 4 times or every available target is hit/healed. Thus cascade is best used on a many targets that are spread out. It seems like a really interesting spell. The targets which it will hit are actually perfecltly predictable. It will hit each target only once so if there are 25ppl in the raid it will hit pretty much everyone once --> bounces 4 times so 1+2+4+8+16 = 35 targets. Also cascade has the very interesting property of ramping HPS.

A big question is whether halo is a fire and forget stationary spell or whether it moves with the healer.

Divine star is probably going to be powerfull for stacked healing. The travelling time is also potentially valuable. You can customise the delay between the forward and backward heal.

#23 Barlow

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:36 PM

Some updates on the Healer Issues.

- Spirit Shell is supposed to apply Grace but it does not. It can not stack and in my tests can be overwritten with a lower value. The Spirit Shell heal is not affected by grace as well. It can however proc "From Darkness Comes Light".
- Psyfiend and Void Tendrils share a CD with Psychic Scream. Could not test Dominate Mind yet.
- Feathers From heaven can be placed three at a time, they seem to last a couple of minutes and while they are on the ground the cooldown resets. You can only have 3 up at a time but this would allow you to lay down three at the beginning of a fight and right after they are used 3 more. Perfectly placed this could lead to at least 7 in a row from a single priest.
- From Darkness Comes Light can proc from procs at the moment.
- Penance cast on a hostile unit will stack Evangalism and (if glyphed) heal via Atonement
- Divne Hymn seems to have been removed from Disc Spec entirely
- If Renew is glyphed a direct heal in Chakra Serenity will extend it to the full 12 second duration but the ticks stay increased (though I assume this is highly likely going to be patched rather quickly)
- (might have been true before - I never played holy) Binding Heal in Chakra: Serenity will extend Renew on the target and the priest, which is very powerful combined with Void Shift
- Divine Fury (15% Hit with Smite, HF and Penance) does not work at the moment (at least not on Dummies, could not yet test on a boss).

#24 Havoc12

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:46 PM

Feathers from heaven: They refresh timer for the feathers is extremely fast just (10seconds). You can place 5-6 in a row without any CD pretty much.

#25 calesta_ezu

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:51 PM

The new spirit to mp5 formula is apparently very simple as well (at 85): 1 spi = 2 mp5 out of combat and 1 mp5 in combat. We also get 5000 mp5 in and out of combat baseline.
source: my naked Troll with 199 spirit has 5199 mp5 ooc and 5099 ic.
507 spirit: 5507 ooc, 5253 ic
1109 spirit: 6109 ooc, 5554 ic
1788 spirit: 6788 ooc, 5894 ic
2184 spirit: 7184 ooc, 6092 ic


I am looking for this baseline 5000 mp5. I have 2,944 spirit and in either holy or disc I have 4,194 ooc and 2,722 ic. I am still lvl 85. Is this a lvl 90 calculation?

#26 Vintoran

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:49 AM

No, this was an old beta build. It's gone now.
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#27 Havoc12

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:16 PM

Greater Heal removed

New spirit shell is now 2.5sec cast, heals for more and it will stack to a certain maximum instead of overwriting. I did a few tests and it looks like the stack caps at 40% of the caster's max health:

Constant mastery (28%)

base: 60691 - maxstack: 71852 -- sp 11866 -- HP179k

base: 57918 - maxstack: 71852 -- sp 10787 -- HP179k

base: 59878 - maxstack: 69003 -- sp 11482 -- HP 172 (-194 spirit, -338int -0.77%crit)

base: 49836 - maxstack: 69784 -- sp 7921 -- HP 174k (removed hc madness mace -249 int -3324sp)
I cast on other targets and the stack is always based on my max health not theirs.

The scaling is over 200% but something is odd:

removing inner fire: -1079sp --> -2773 absorb --> Scaling: 2.57
removing a ring with 338 int, 194 spirit and 284 crit rating: -384sp --> -813 absorb --> scaling 2.1171875
No inner focus compared with ring removed: -695 sp --> -1960 absorb --> scaling 2.820143885
Removing my mace loses 3945 sp and 10855 absorb --> Scaling 2.75

Does not scale with grace so I presume it also does not scale with archangel.

The anomalous scaling is probably related to Inner Fire. I will do a few experiments later to verify

I am not sure what the raid encounters will be like, but right now spirit shell is not very good. It costs more than gheal did and it absorbs less. On the other hand it is an absorb and you can spam it hard on the tank, since it does not quite overwrite anymore. On top of that you are pretty much guaranteed to have a PWS available every 7.5s with the new PWS talent. Being an absorb it won't really matter how many healers are spamming the tank, since the majority of the healing from disc will be absorbs that will be used up first before the tank takes any damage. Thus discipline will be pretty damn good for tank healing and will work very well with other healers, since it the other healers can better tailor their output to the visible deficits and reduce their overheal.

If throuput is even close to other tank healers disc will be quite strong, at least for as long as we have mana. The divine insight talent is going to be quite necessary for tank healing since it means we can use PWS every 12s to maximum rapture return.

The prio would be PWS every 12s, penance/holy fire on CD and spirit shell/smite as filler. The archangel talent is worthless for tank healing, since it wont buff spirit shell and PWS, which will be the majority of our output. Holy fire will be used to keep evangelism up and we will be using smite whenever there is a lull in tank damage so that chain casting spirit shell between penance/pws will overcap the spirit shell stack.

IMO the new spirit shell is again failed design. Spirit shell is only useful for tank healing and nothing else. It also costs a shedload of mana, while not actually having a very high throughput. The scaling with spellpower might mean that it will improve fast with gear though.

Sadly beta is broken for me ATM. I crash every few minutes with a #132 error, so I need to wait until blizzard fixes it before doing anymore testing.

#28 Barlow

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:46 PM

Does not scale with grace so I presume it also does not scale with archangel.


The heal component benefits from Archangel, though. It did stack before, too - but was capped at 20% priest HP, so usually less then the initial absorb. Since the first SpS had no cap this resulted in a second one reducing the overall absorb.

On top of that you are pretty much guaranteed to have a PWS available every 7.5s with the new PWS talent.



At the moment a couple of things don't work. First and foremost the proc does not allow to cast PW:S on a target affected by weakened soul. Secondly it does not stack Grace, though the tooltip says it should and thirdly SpS does not benefit from Grace.

A major problem (at least with level 86 HP values) is the fairly low cap amount, limiting the SpS spam heavily. One simple dodge and you're overwriting the majority of the shield.

Holy fire will be used to keep evangelism up and we will be using smite whenever there is a lull in tank damage so that chain casting spirit shell between penance/pws will overcap the spirit shell stack.


Actually we don't need Holy Fire for Evangelism and using Penance on a hostile target will (assuming the tank has Grace) result in a higher troughput than casting Penance on the tank directly. Plus Penance Atonement ticks are distributed seperately.

IMO the new spirit shell is again failed design. Spirit shell is only useful for tank healing and nothing else. It also costs a shedload of mana, while not actually having a very high throughput. The scaling with spellpower might mean that it will improve fast with gear though.


Is Inner Focus still in the game? And what about Train of Thought. The synergy of ToT, FDCL and Serendipity was just insane. Wonder if those talents got redesigned but the game crashes for me, too at the moment.

//Edit - I could log in long enough to check: Inner Focus is still in the game, ToT, too and ToT still states that GH reduces the IF cooldown by 5 sec per cast. //

P.S. from my testing Penance Glyph does not work...

#29 Havoc12

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:28 PM

You generally want to be sure that you will hit the tank with penance, since its your main healing spell. That means casting on the boss may problematic. The tank will generally have a large absorption stack and so if everyone takes damage the tank health deficit might not be as high as other targets.

So we cannot assume that it will be safe to penance the boss. ATM spirit shell also wont proc grace so you need penance for that. Thus it is usually best to use holy fire on the boss to keep evangelism up. You have plenty of time to do that since its a 20s buff and HF is a 10s CD.


Mostly what you would be doing is PWS-ss-x-ss-x-ss-PWS, where x is penance or holy fire. That way you give enough room for the ss to be used up at least partially.

=============================================================

Also I noticed that cascade has been nerfed. It now bounces up to 3 times

That means 1+2+4+8 = 15 targets healed. Still pretty good though. Especially if the raid is spread out.

#30 Havoc12

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:17 PM

Void tendrils appear to work very differently from what is advertised. I was going from mob to mob in westfall and was able to grasp one after another without triggering any CD. If I stood next to a mob and cast tendrils multiple times I got the mob grasped by multiple tendrils, but still on CD was triggered. I wonder if its a bug or if its by design.

The mobs are attacking the void tendrils now, but since you can spam it you can pretty much root them forever

#31 Szeretlek

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:34 PM

All your theorycraft based around tank-healing. >>Nobody<< need tank-healing spec really =)
Although disc can be powerful tank-healer now, but mostly we do PoH-spam. I dont think something will change in raid design.

And btw we get Rupture back - its scale with spirit so it suck hard. PWS cost 6200 (w/o IW), lets assume you have 3000 spirit in t13 gear (yes, you reforged all stats to spirit in MoP), so this is 4500mana return each 12 sec (if you have godly skill) = 1875mp5. You should re-enchant some stuff, like weapon (Heartsong) and bracers (+50spirit instead +50int) and you should use +300spirit flask and +90spirit food in beta now, because you will go OOM pretty fast even in full heroic gear.
And Blizzard thinks, that Rupture is OP, so they cut Disc Meditation to 25% Spirit regen. Its like fighting Vezax, you throw heals, manabar goes down and never goes up =)
Right now you HAVE TO be godly player and somehow trigger Rupture every 12sec just to be like others healing spec in terms of regen. Its a bullshit im my opinion. Why I should overbear that when I can switch to holy and have double regen w/o doing nothing?

And moreover, SpS and Penance cant stack Heart of Unliving, which pretty bad.

Penance glyph doesnt work, Disc part of Divine Insight doesnt work either.

P.S. Until they fix disc mana regen Holy much more viable to play. More hps, 50% spirit regen without Rupture mechanic.
P.P.S. Disc has 3 heal options w/o cd - FHeal, SpShell and Smite. None of them suits filler role. Smite spam left you w/o mana damn fast, because Smite base cast time reduced to 1.5sec and it cost 4000 mana. You just dont have low cost heal w/o cooldown right now.

#32 Havoc12

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

Lets look at this rationally:

@ lvl87 with 7473 int (not sure if it affects it now), 794 spirit is worth 704 mp5 or ~1.128mp5 per spirit point.

Rapture returns 1.5 mana per 12 seconds per spirit point or 0.625 mp5 per spirit point.

Meditation from holy is worth 50% of mana regeneration in combat or 0.564mp5.

I.e. if you get a perfect return from rapture you will get more than meditation is worth alone.

Even accounting for the difference in mana efficiency between holy and disc, it is clear that rapture is MORE than worth having 25% meditation instead of 50% meditation.

Someone might argue that I would not be using PWS if it wasn't for rapture. Sure but what would I be using? PWS is actually CHEAPER than spirit shell and flash heal if I am in inner will (@87 PWS: 8432 / Flash & SpS:9600). Heal costs 3200 mana and heals for 20k and atm its bugged so its not affected by grace. PWS in inner will heals for 50k, so I would need 2.5*3.2 = 8k mana. Inner fire costs pretty much the same as heal. In other words you would spend exactly the same amount of mana to heal the damage prevented by PWS.

So the saving from rapture is a real saving and does not really need to be adjusted for increased spell cost usage. If you can use just heal to heal, penance and holy fire in inner fire to heal the tank then yes you would make less of a saving by using PWS, but.... the slightly lower gains are countered by drastically lower mana consumption. You don't really need tons of mana if you are spamming heal/penance and holy fire.

In any case when you actually have to do some more serious healing, you need to be in inner will and use PWS every 12s or as close as that as you can. In inner will Renew and pom(glyphed) with fully stacked grace are also worth using, especially if you get bounces from PoM.

With the DS 4 set PWS also has a 10% chance to double up the absorb and the return from rapture too.

The main problem I have in dungeons atm is that I have no bloody tools to heal ppl up! If someone has a 120k deficit, I have to wait for 10.3s (2.3 cast and 8s proc) for them to be healed for 48k, during those 8s they have a health deficit of 60k, so they are still quite low. Worse of all is that if the heal from spirit shell proc its mana efficiency is complete rubbish, so I might as well have flashed them. I try to use renew and heal as much as possible to boost mana efficiency and if I suspect someone will take damage soon I SpS them, but the 8s buff duration in SpS makes this very difficult.

The 2nd problem I have is the 15s duration on PWS. Especially with the DS 4 set bonus I sometimes get a humongous 110k PWS on that just won't get absorbed, so no mana return from rapture and I don't dare use PWS on someone at low health because if the PWS does not get used up, I will have just dropped 10k mana for nothing.

I am wondering whether to glyph PWS, but that will completely change the returns from rapture. I now need to make sure that the tank has enough deficit otherwise I won't be doing the full amount of healing from the PWS so the mana saving is reduced.

Hopefully blizzard will realise that we can't live without greater heal and they will bring it back.

#33 Hamsda

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

I also would like to see disc getting GH back, simply because we are not able to heal people back up to a decent amount of hp without using flash or having to wait.
In my opinion there would be 2 relatively easy ways to fix this problem:
a) Making SpS not stack.
That may sound a bit strange but if an existing SpS would automatically expire once a new SpS is cast on the same target, the scenario havoc described could be solved: you heal the person once -> gets the SpS and cast it again -> it expires, heals and together with the new SpS the person is practivally at 100% hp and will be there once the 2nd SpS expires.
Tank healing may be a bit different, especially if the boss does not hit hard enough to consume a complete SpS before one can cast another, but if that is the case we won't be healing the tank full time anyways and if there is nothing else to do we would still be able to use heal to get his hp higher before the SpS is consumed.
B) GH back in our arsenal and SpS taking a midway role between heal and its current implementation.
Tank healing or getting people back up to full hp can be done like we do now with greater heal. On live I think nearly no disc ever uses heal but with a tighter mana situation we will probably need a tool like heal.
I wasn't able to test disc on the beta with SpS old implementation but I guess it was scrapped because it was too weak? Could someone who used it say/guess if a stronger version (although not as strong as it currently is but with appropiate mana costs) would be able to serve as a triage tool?

With the current implementations I think I would rather want to play Holy for dungeon/raiding purposes because SpS just seems too "clunky", even though I really like discs role as a damage preventer rather than a full time healer...
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#34 Barlow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

Lets look at this rationally:

@ lvl87 with 7473 int (not sure if it affects it now), 794 spirit is worth 704 mp5 or ~1.128mp5 per spirit point.

Rapture returns 1.5 mana per 12 seconds per spirit point or 0.625 mp5 per spirit point.

Meditation from holy is worth 50% of mana regeneration in combat or 0.564mp5.

I.e. if you get a perfect return from rapture you will get more than meditation is worth alone.

Even accounting for the difference in mana efficiency between holy and disc, it is clear that rapture is MORE than worth having 25% meditation instead of 50% meditation.


When I checked the last time (during FL HC progress) the top disc priests had a rupture delay of 15-18 secs. Some of the overall top ranked even in the low and mid 20s. Back then you could reduce Weakened Soul debuff via direct Heals AND PW:S had no Cooldown. So I would say it's fairly safe to assume an average Rupture Delay of 18 Secs will be a fairly good value. If I calculated correctly the break even point of Rupture returns compared to the 50% Meditation would be 26.5957 seconds. So now the biggest question is the Absorb Priority. We have Aegis, SpS and PW:S - but which of those will have priority?

#35 Szeretlek

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:55 PM

If I calculated correctly the break even point of Rupture returns compared to the 50% Meditation would be 26.5957 seconds. So now the biggest question is the Absorb Priority. We have Aegis, SpS and PW:S - but which of those will have priority?

Can you describe your calculations? Its interesting.

@ lvl87 with 7473 int (not sure if it affects it now), 794 spirit is worth 704 mp5 or ~1.128mp5 per spirit point.

Int does nothing with regen. Only Spirit.

#36 Barlow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:47 PM

Can you describe your calculations? Its interesting.


Well base regen is the same so it leaves us with 50% Spirit Combat Regen vs. Rapture + 25%)

So we Compare 25% Regen with Rapture

So

Spirit*0.282=Spirit*1.5*5/x where x is the delay between Rapture procs.
> 0.282=7.5/x
> 0.282x=7.5
> x=26.5957

If I didn't make any mistakes ;)

#37 Havoc12

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:25 PM

When I checked the last time (during FL HC progress) the top disc priests had a rupture delay of 15-18 secs. Some of the overall top ranked even in the low and mid 20s. Back then you could reduce Weakened Soul debuff via direct Heals AND PW:S had no Cooldown. So I would say it's fairly safe to assume an average Rupture Delay of 18 Secs will be a fairly good value. If I calculated correctly the break even point of Rupture returns compared to the 50% Meditation would be 26.5957 seconds. So now the biggest question is the Absorb Priority. We have Aegis, SpS and PW:S - but which of those will have priority?


It is strongly dependent on the encounter

In our latest run, I have 1 rapture every 20.8s on morchok on average, 1 rapture every 15.9s on warlord, 1 rapture every 21.2s on warmaster and 1 rapture every 13s on ultraxion. I dont really cast single target heals in these encounters.

On ultraxion you have one big raid wide hit every 6 seconds roughly and I always have a PWS absorbed on every one so rapture is practically procd on CD, but on morchok damage waves come in longer intervals.

#38 Barlow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

It is strongly dependent on the encounters.


No I meant: Which absorb has priority. Could anyone test that? If Aegis is absorbed before SpS and then PW:S this would be rather bad for Rapture...

#39 Barlow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:18 PM

Some info from PTR: Psyfiend has no Cooldown at the moment (bug) it should have 45 secs and last time I checked it shared a CD with Psychic Scream. Good news though: The Glyph of Psychic Scream works on Psyfiend, making it a really useful CC at least in 5 Mans atm.

#40 Barlow

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

Someone might argue that I would not be using PWS if it wasn't for rapture. Sure but what would I be using? PWS is actually CHEAPER than spirit shell and flash heal if I am in inner will (@87 PWS: 8432 / Flash & SpS:9600). Heal costs 3200 mana and heals for 20k and atm its bugged so its not affected by grace. PWS in inner will heals for 50k, so I would need 2.5*3.2 = 8k mana. Inner fire costs pretty much the same as heal. In other words you would spend exactly the same amount of mana to heal the damage prevented by PWS.


Didn't quite get this Calculation. So far I assume that our PW:S target will be the tank, so he will be affected by grace fairly sure. The most expensive heal other than PW:S would be Flash Heal. In my gear (L86) at the moment PW_S absorbs 44.749 for 7400 Mana. Flash Heal heals 41214 noncrit. 11.43 Crit unbuffed. Including the aegis this already adds up to 52048. Plus it can proc SoL (and SoL can proc Sol and so on...). So to make it simple let's say we only reduce the cost of Flash Heal by 20% in our little example. So PW:S costs 7440, the Alternative Flash Heal (again the most expensive heal we've got) would cost 5760, net us a roughly the same throughput (considering BT), could profit from Inner Focus, thus further lowering the costs and keep up grace. So in my case - at level 86 this change nets me a loss of roughly 1680 Mana per cast plus a loss in Healing for the mana spent) even if I use the most expensive Heal as backup and do not consider Inner Focus. (Don't even get me started on the loss of GH/Serendipity for that matter ;))




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