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#41 Hidden

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:30 PM

I think the main problem of balancing Disc regeneration around Rapture is that you have no real way of actually regenerating mana because the PW:S you have to use to proc Rapture already costs more mana than what you get. Thus Disc Priests won't really be able to regenerate mana in low damage phases like all other healers can. E.g. if there's just some low random damage going on, a Holy Priest can keep the group/raid alive with the occasional extremely efficient PoM. A Disc Priest will do the same and either regenerate only half the mana of the Holy, or additionally use PW:S to proc Rapture and waste most of the absorb.

Not to mention from what I recall, PW:S is fairly mana-inefficient on beta servers for my Priest right now. Spirit Shell absorbs/heals like 50% more for less mana. I think the problem is that PW:S heals the same as on live but all other heals/absorbs were buffed by roughly 45% a few beta patches ago.

#42 saphiramoon

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:01 PM

No I meant: Which absorb has priority. Could anyone test that? If Aegis is absorbed before SpS and then PW:S this would be rather bad for Rapture...


Form what I could check between crashes, its Aegis>PWS>SpS.

Most of my concerns have been already been stated above.

1. Not sure about the new mana regen formula on beta, the tooltips atm are confusing, showing me the same regen in both holy and disc specc (and same on my paladin who happens to have similar spirit). Is there a new formula?

2. They seem to have balanced Rapture with half of our former passive regen: personally, I don't think it's realistic to assume a rapture proc every 12 seconds, unless you are tank healing and specced into DI. A talent should not become mandatory for our regen to be balanced with a passive regen. Further more, it puts serious issues with disc priests stacking: currently, I raid 25 mans and in my healing team there is another disc priest. We share shields on the tank and evidently, our Rapture uptime is not possible to be perfect. Even if I was the only disc priest in the raid, it would still mean I am forced to either forget about PWS as emergency tool for saving asses, and just have it always ready for rapture (given the new 6 sec cd) or loose regen. It's a choice that feels unfair and makes disc a lot less fluid. I enjoy the rapture mechanic on live, it feels rewarding to take advantage of it: on beta, it feels like a punishment to cast PWS on something else than the tank. I feel our regen becomes subject to some RNG:
- we could be already casting something else when rapture comes off cd
- we could have just used the cd on PWS to save somebody (and we have no other tool on the run)
- we could be running and nobody taking damage
- we could be cc-ed
- the tank could get a lucky streak of avoidance and shield wont break (or we get some lucky aegis)
- there could just be a period of low damage, when other healers regen in peace.
All in all, it sounds unrealistic that we will be able to balance 6 sec cd on PWS, 12 sec cd on Rapture and 15 sec cd on WS.

3. I'm playing disc for almost 2 expansions now, and loved it through good and bad times. One of the reasons I love it is the synergy between spells. Right now, on beta, it seems more like a collection of individual abilities that do not interact with each other, and sometimes they plainly come against each other:
- archangel doesn't work with absorbs, but most of our tank healing is supposed to come from absorbs
- SpS doesn't interact in any way with grace, so we're supposed to have it for Heal&Flash Heal? We moved away from Flash and Heal proved to not really survive past 5 mans in the current expansion.
- Aegis prevents PWS from being broken, and both PWS and Aegis prevent SpS from being used
- we have no real filler, since SpS just over-writes itself; SpS also cannot crit, and cannot proc aegis. Crit becomes a rather poor stat for disc tank healing.
- the whole model has a very poor support from the UI. Not only we are supposed to know how much of that shield is left on somebody but the other healers should too, so they don't heal a target because it will be healed in 8 seconds.
- smite has double the mana cost of heal for less healing from atonement. We're supposed to use penance on the enemy? Atonement doesn't stack grace.
- we lost inspiration.

4. Stacking. I can't tell if SpS from 2 different priests will stack or not. If they do, then bringing 2 disc priests to a brutal tank healing encounter could trivialise it by basically doubling the tank's health with SpS+PWS and eventual aegis. If they do not stack, than we are back in wrath, with one possible disc priest in the raid.

4. Disc aoe healing? We are the only healer in the game with a single aoe heal.: paladins have radiance+lod (am as cd and its been improved), druids have WG+Efflo+mushrooms (tranq as cd), holy priests have poh+coh+sanctuary (DH as cd) and shamans have chainheal+healing rain and they are getting some nice aoe healing cds - healing stream totem is reworked and there is also a healing tide totem(spirit link still a nice cd).

I'm not really worried about numbers atm - numbers can be easily tweaked. It's mechanics that feel not quite there.

#43 Havoc12

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

As always the smallest absorb gets used up first. So Spirit shell comes last, unless you get a 4set bonus proc on PWS then PWS comes last. If aegis is fully stacked PWS goes first.

Didn't quite get this Calculation. So far I assume that our PW:S target will be the tank, so he will be affected by grace fairly sure. The most expensive heal other than PW:S would be Flash Heal. In my gear (L86) at the moment PW_S absorbs 44.749 for 7400 Mana. Flash Heal heals 41214 noncrit. 11.43 Crit unbuffed. Including the aegis this already adds up to 52048. Plus it can proc SoL (and SoL can proc Sol and so on...). So to make it simple let's say we only reduce the cost of Flash Heal by 20% in our little example. So PW:S costs 7440, the Alternative Flash Heal (again the most expensive heal we've got) would cost 5760, net us a roughly the same throughput (considering BT), could profit from Inner Focus, thus further lowering the costs and keep up grace. So in my case - at level 86 this change nets me a loss of roughly 1680 Mana per cast plus a loss in Healing for the mana spent) even if I use the most expensive Heal as backup and do not consider Inner Focus. (Don't even get me started on the loss of GH/Serendipity for that matter ;))


FDCL is not free. To take it you have to lose mind bender, which doubles the return of shadowfiend. Mindbender returns an additional 36% of your mana pool per use, but that is modified by HoH and it improves with haste from borrowed time and gear. Overall the gain from the two talents is roughly similar. Obviously for a priest who already has FDCL the loss of a potential proc is an issue, but the 15% haste, reduces that by increasing the potential number of casts per minute. I have mind bender not FDCL so that is how I calculate everything.

You cannot include inner focus in your calculations. Using PWS does not remove your ability to use inner focus for a flash heal or any other spell, so you are getting the exact same benefit from inner focus by including PWS regularly in your rotation as you would if you didn't and again including it in the calculation is completely wrong. Grace is a non issue, you have plenty of time to keep it up with other spells.

PWS also gives you borrowed time which can easily give you a haste bonus for up to 3 spells. Penance-instant-channeled cast combos still allow all 3 spells to benefit from the haste bonus.

Then things become even more interesting when you add inner will, which reduces PWS mana cost by 15%, compared with inner fire which increases spell power by 10%. 10% more spell power is quite significantly less than 10% throughput for both PWS and Flash heal and at the same time lowers the cost of renew and PoM, two spells that you certainly want to use on a target with 3 grace stacks. (renew has pretty good HPM on a graced target). Inner tips the balance towards PWS even more.

To deliver the coup de grace there is now a pretty hefty mastery buff. PWS benefits both from that and from the spellpower bonus, so it kinda double dips when it comes to buffs compared to your flash heal and on top of that PWS has less potential for "overheal"

With everything (buffs, aegis and crit) and obviously ignoring overheal for flash. PWS and flash both heal roughly 55k @87, but PWS costs 1200 less mana and gives me borrowed time. Even without considering rapture using PWS on CD on the tank with inner will gives me a boost in both HPS and HPM compared to flash heal and big increase in HPS, for roughly the same HPM compared with spirit shell.

Flash heal also costs exactly the same amount of mana (ignoring inner will) as SpS and PWS (6% of base mana for all 3)

Basically even if you didnt have rupture it would make sense HPM wise to be in inner will and use PWS on the tank frequently

#44 Szeretlek

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

After some calculation regen formula definitely looks like

CombatRegen=1248.8+M*Spirit,
where
1248.8 - base regen. Cant be affeceted by anything.
M - is meditation coefficient, and Spirit is your total amount of Spirit (base+gear)
M50=0.56(46) - 50% spirit regen
M25=0,28(23) - 25% spirit regen

Well base regen is the same so it leaves us with 50% Spirit Combat Regen vs. Rapture + 25%)

So we Compare 25% Regen with Rapture

So

Spirit*0.282=Spirit*1.5*5/x where x is the delay between Rapture procs.
> 0.282=7.5/x
> 0.282x=7.5
> x=26.5957
If I didn't make any mistakes

Seems right.
But actual numbers say, that Rupture in MoP may make your PWS >cheaper< every 12sec.
At live servers Rupture may make your PWS free and give you shitload of mana to you to spend on others healing spells of your choice every 12sec.
Thats a tremendous difference.

Guys, you really think if prepatch hits live tomorrow you will heal Zonoz or Madness or _type here any boss you want_ with FlashHeal and SpiritShell?..
Maybe you think in MoP raid design will change for single target healing? NO WAY. Baleroc maybe, but thats one example =)
It will ALWAYS be an AoE fest.

If prepatch hits live tomorrow we, Disc Priest will be in shit very deep compared to others healers =)
If someone of you played with HPaly in MoP...

#45 Havoc12

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:34 AM

It will make PWS free eventually. This is at the start of tte expansion iwth 410 gear and without reforging spirit. Rapture did not make PWS free at the start of cata. Right now healing hc madness would be difficult, but its not about that anymore. Its all about lvl 90.

Disc has a lot of problems, but mana regen ain't it.

Yes the regen formula is now

OOC regen = base + spirit*k,

where base and k are constants affected by level. @87 base = 2000 and k ~0.12872

#46 Szeretlek

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:08 AM

It will make PWS free eventually.

As ppls said, manacost raise with level (btw, I think this is nonsense), so PWS will cost around 10k mana @90lvl. To make it free you need around 6k spirit.

For example from last BK (t6) tier to last WotLK tier (t10) attributes doubles. From last Wotlk (t10) to last Cata tier (t13) attributes triples.
If we even assume that from last Cata tier to last MoP tier we quadruples we will have around 12k spirit.
And around 50k spirit for expansion after MoP lol =)

But for now, if prepatch hits live - disc mana regen will be destroyed. 150% spirit for rapture may be fine for gigantic MoP numbers, but for Cata numbers all it can - make PWS cheaper. Eventualy.

#47 Barlow

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:38 AM

Disc has a lot of problems, but mana regen ain't it.


I didn't have mana Problems either but on the other Hand I'm still wearing the T12 set and iirc 2% Base Mana/5Sec equals roughly 4000+ Spirit (at least as holy, as disc results may vary...;)

#48 Barlow

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:30 AM

FDCL is not free. To take it you have to lose mind bender, which doubles the return of shadowfiend. Mindbender returns an additional 36% of your mana pool per use, but that is modified by HoH and it improves with haste from borrowed time and gear. Overall the gain from the two talents is roughly similar.


From what I've read in the EN Forum FDCL outperforms Mindbender at roughly one PPM. In addition I've never been a huge Fan of HoH+Fiend especially not with 4 Minute Fiend CD and the higher output since you will have to spend much more mana and time in order to fully benefit from the mana gains, thus reducing the potential number of SF Casts per fight.

PWS also gives you borrowed time which can easily give you a haste bonus for up to 3 spells.


Only for instant Spells and Penance. If you want to maximize Rapture returns it's rather unlikely you'll have penance ready that second. So that leaves us with Renew to potentially benefit...

Then things become even more interesting when you add inner will, which reduces PWS mana cost by 15%, compared with inner fire which increases spell power by 10%. 10% more spell power is quite significantly less than 10% throughput for both PWS and Flash heal and at the same time lowers the cost of renew and PoM, two spells that you certainly want to use on a target with 3 grace stacks. (renew has pretty good HPM on a graced target). Inner tips the balance towards PWS even more.


10% SP on all of our Spells compared with reduced costs for PW:S, Renew and PoM isn't really worth the tradeoff imho. Especially since I've never felt the need to use Renew as a Disc and will even less, once Heal is correctly benefitting from Grace. So It's basically using IW just for the sake of having a cheaper PW:S. And, well at best once in 10 Seconds a PoM, much likely way less - and PoM already is a rather cheap spell.

With everything (buffs, aegis and crit) and obviously ignoring overheal for flash. PWS and flash both heal roughly 55k @87, but PWS costs 1200 less mana and gives me borrowed time. Even without considering rapture using PWS on CD on the tank with inner will gives me a boost in both HPS and HPM compared to flash heal and big increase in HPS, for roughly the same HPM compared with spirit shell.


Can't confirm that unless stacking mastery. FH gives me more HpS at better HpM. And again FH is the most expensive Alternative. A lot of the times a Heal/Penance would do the job as well and then again I'm stuck with PW:S just to get Rapture. During low incoming DPS this is a killer for Manareg.

Basically even if you didnt have rupture it would make sense HPM wise to be in inner will and use PWS on the tank frequently


How would that happen without rupture?

#49 Havoc12

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

As ppls said, manacost raise with level (btw, I think this is nonsense), so PWS will cost around 10k mana @90lvl. To make it free you need around 6k spirit.

For example from last BK (t6) tier to last WotLK tier (t10) attributes doubles. From last Wotlk (t10) to last Cata tier (t13) attributes triples.
If we even assume that from last Cata tier to last MoP tier we quadruples we will have around 12k spirit.
And around 50k spirit for expansion after MoP lol =)

But for now, if prepatch hits live - disc mana regen will be destroyed. 150% spirit for rapture may be fine for gigantic MoP numbers, but for Cata numbers all it can - make PWS cheaper. Eventualy.


PWS costs 6% of your base mana pool, like SpS and flash and that increases as you go up in level. At level 87 it costs 9600 mana. At level 90 it will probably cost 13-14k, by the looks of things.

At the moment on live I have 2578 spirit base, but I am not stacking spirit I am stacking int, haste and mastery. However the spine tirnket is worth 880 spirit, so that raises to 3458 spirit. If I get the hc spine version it will be even more and I can equip my DM:Tsunami card for another 500 spirit so I can run with 3958 spirit (up to 4458 with my cloak proc). I can also reforge and regen for another 300 or so spirit at the very least which takes us to roughly 4300. With the 5% buff that can go up to 4500 and with the cloak proc it can reach 5000. A rapture proc would then return 6750-7500 mana, which is more than PWS costs at level 85. Even more so if I am in inner will.

If the patch was rolled in today, I can do almost all encounters pretty much the same way as before. I would just spam PoH/PWS like I did before and have mindbender for double sfiend return on top of 25% archangel that I can stack quickly instantly using penance. I think I will be alright pretty much. The only problem is that I would simply not be able to single target heal anything. So I would not bother tank healing at all. Just help a tank healer by using my PWS on the tank.

At level 87 mana becomes tigher but that is because my mostly 410 gear is begining to lag behind.


I didn't have mana Problems either but on the other Hand I'm still wearing the T12 set and iirc 2% Base Mana/5Sec equals roughly 4000+ Spirit (at least as holy, as disc results may vary...;)


2% of base mana is roughly 1/3 the cost of a flash heal/SpS/PWS per 5 seconds. So it adds an additional spell every 15 seconds or 4 spells per minute. Its not as groundbreaking as it sounds.

Also what are you referring to. Dungeons at level 87 is quite different to soloing at level 87 and very different from both dungeons and questing at level 85. Although spell costs and mana pool based regen scale up. Spirit regen stays the same if you have lvl 85 410 gear.

At level 87 mana is tight for disc since the removal of greater heal. A big problem is that with the mastery buff my PWS absorbs 55k and iver 110k if I get a 4set proc. Because fo the 15s timer on PWS sometimes it does not get used up on the tank, especially when the 4 set procs. The result is I lose a 10k rapture mana return, which is not nice. Aside from that if ppl don't suck I am can get by unless I have to flash heal people. The lack of greater heal makes it an absolute pain though when ppl other than the tank take a lot of damage.

DI also fails at the moment since it does not ignore weakened soul like its supposed to and SpS is rubbish bad so I end up not casting it. It drains my mana fast a lot of it doesn't get absorbed and the healing on the tank goes to overheal, because PWS and the occasional penance/holy fire are more than enough for keeping the tank alive. Most of my mana goes to heal the rest of the group, which is actually quite difficult with the tools available to me.

==========================

I am interested in the holy version of DI. It appears that PoM cast under DI will heal the target instantly, jump to another target and heal it instantly, jump again and heal instantly so so on. Is that how it works? If it does its absoludely awesome. Coupled with FDCL and free flashes, I would say that holy is in a damn good place right now for both single target healing and aoe healing.

#50 Barlow

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:31 PM

I am interested in the holy version of DI. It appears that PoM cast under DI will heal the target instantly, jump to another target and heal it instantly, jump again and heal instantly so so on. Is that how it works? If it does its absoludely awesome. Coupled with FDCL and free flashes, I would say that holy is in a damn good place right now for both single target healing and aoe healing.


I've tried it but the biggest problem is tracking the proc. So can't really tell you how fast it jumps. Maybe I'll give it another shot.

As of Disc tank healing I think using Penance/HF on the Boss and filling with Heal to stack SoL might be a fairly good mana-saver at the moment. Using that strategy it might be worth Glyphing PW:S since the Heal can both crit, profit from grace and Reduce the shield itself, thus making in more likely to proc Rapture. I will have to test that. DI is off the table for me (even if it would be working) since I don't use SpS and first and foremost the change to PI (costing no mana with the next patch) making it way more appealing.

#51 saphiramoon

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:56 PM

Thank you for the regen formula, I'm gonna run myself some calculations on possible scenarios.

The question that a poster above put earlier , about how would I heal current content with the disc MoP set of talents is exactly something that was crossing my mind during my raid on wednesday. Now, DS is a horrid aoe spamfest and for most times, as Shaara said, I'd be doing the same thing more or less, aka spam PoH, albeit having less PWS available for fights like Morchock - but then again, Morchock isnt really a roadblock. The moment that got me worrying was during Madness: I am assigned to take care of the parasite targets and the only way to keep them alive is to constantly spam heal them with gheals, with Archangel up and 3xgrace and shielding when possible. The targets just almost die many times, even with a fat aegis built on them by nice decent gheals and no exageration, its the crits that keep them alive, especially if some unlucky slam happens. Sure one could say I would spam SpS and they would get insta absorbed, problem is, they would not be enough. They are lower than gheal crits and I'd loose those nice stacking aegis. Another job I usually get is to top up the soakers on zonozz. Well, I would not be able to do that with Heal and Flash, during the 8 seconds dead time on SpS.

So disc is atm not quite working as a tank healer, which is what we are supposed to be heading to (?). What would be the point in playing disc only to spam PoH constantly? I can live with the limitations on variety on disc aoe because I like my flexibility, I like to dps in lul phases and I can spice things up a bit with a little preshielding. I do not, however, enjoy spamming PoH on itself. It might be effective, but hardly fun.

#52 Havoc12

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:24 PM

From what I've read in the EN Forum FDCL outperforms Mindbender at roughly one PPM. In addition I've never been a huge Fan of HoH+Fiend especially not with 4 Minute Fiend CD and the higher output since you will have to spend much more mana and time in order to fully benefit from the mana gains, thus reducing the potential number of SF Casts per fight.


That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL. In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink. Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all. In a 3minute fight you can only cast fiend once anyway and mind bender will give you a nearly full mana bar with HoH.

Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL. For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.


Only for instant Spells and Penance. If you want to maximize Rapture returns it's rather unlikely you'll have penance ready that second. So that leaves us with Renew to potentially benefit...


You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.

10% SP on all of our Spells compared with reduced costs for PW:S, Renew and PoM isn't really worth the tradeoff imho. Especially since I've never felt the need to use Renew as a Disc and will even less, once Heal is correctly benefitting from Grace. So It's basically using IW just for the sake of having a cheaper PW:S. And, well at best once in 10 Seconds a PoM, much likely way less - and PoM already is a rather cheap spell.


10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.

FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all. Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter. Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.

SpS flash and heal are the alternatives to PWS not penance and renew, which is a spell on CD and renew a spell you can't cast all the time. You won't be replacing penance and renew casts with PWS, but SpS flash and heal casts. Heal and SpS have a bit better HPM than PWS, but drastically lower HPS and the HPM different is so small in inner will, that it's not worth bothering when it comes to calculating the return from rapture. Basically even without rapture it would make sense to cast PWS if you could afford it. For emergency use PWS is already much better than flash if the target takes enough damage to use it up and it will become even better than flash heal for HPS. For HPM they are fairly close at the moment, but only in inner fire and with haste stacked level 85 gear. Stack mastery and spirit as you should for dungeons and the slight advantage flash has in inner fire is going to disappear.

All in all, the returns from rapture are not affected significantly by the decrease in HPM that comes from using PWS frequently, UNLESS you have FDCL, which is not necessarily the best way. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.

#53 Barlow

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:29 PM

[quote name='Havoc12']That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL.[/quote]

(First of all and on the risk of getting a warning or infraction for simply writing that: I really enjoy this discussion with you even though we have extremely contradicting views on almost all of the spells and talents of a disc, so please take no offense on my replys to you)

Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.

[quote]In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink.[/quote]

Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.

[quote]Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all.[/quote]

Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana (and nobody else needing your HoH) to not use HoH in the next 4 minutes. On the other Hand we're talking about one ppm to even out the mana gains and giving you a stacking instant heal with a relatively long window to use up.

[quote]Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL.[/quote]

Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana. "Heal" heals for 19785 @2.400 Mana. So Renew has 6,41HpM and Heal has 8.23 HpM Heal HpS is Higher, Renew HpCT is higher but overheal is way higher. Heal will proc and refresh Grace, Renew won't and Heal will proc FDCL while Renew won't. And since the SpS's healing component now correctly benefits from Grace, evel SpS outperforms Renews HpM and HpCT (plus is assumed to stack and renew grace and proc FDCL). I can't see a scenario where I'd go Inner Will just for the sake of a spell that I have good backups for instead. Unless of course a fight with permanent movement.

[quote]For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.[/quote]

Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc. PoH is the only one of those we will be casting w/o cooldown/duration restriction. So we have Heal, Smite, SpS and FH which will proc FDCL and have no restrictions plus not only they will proc FDCL, they will either stack and/or renew Grace or reduce the penance CD and stack/or refresh Evangalism synergize with DI if skilled. So far I can't picture a general scenario where FDCL would underperform Mindbender by that much that I would a) forfeit FDCL and B) would usw Inner Will to boost PW:S and Renew.

[quote]You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.[/quote]

That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT. Since Penance now (assuming the tank has 3Grace) is best used on a hostile target on CD AND PW:S has a Cooldown it's rather likely that I won't have Penance aligned with PW:S. unless I want to give up a lot of Penance Throughput. Same for PoM. Why would I align that with BT? It is only worth it's money the more jumps it has. Even losing one jump does not dignify recasting it just for the sake of BT. So that would leave me with Renew - that doesn't align with BT either and (as stated above) is really not a "must have". So we're at 1 heal plus maybe one instant heal.

[quote]10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.[/quote]

But what would we need IW for? PoM Accounts for at best 5-7% overall healing (last time I checked and that time still with the 60% bonus 5 charges glyph). And that 7% if we're willing to forfeit it's HpM by recasting it when everybody's full just for having some AoE Buffer. So that leaves us with PW:S and Renew. Renew can by all means be replayed by SpS or Heal. So that leaves us mainly with PW:S at best once in 6 Secs. Don't really see that outshining IF.

[quote]FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all.[/quote]

True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.

[quote]Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter.[/quote]

Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.

[quote]Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.[/quote]

While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.

[quote]. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.

#54 saphiramoon

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:34 PM

FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it.


FDCL also procs from smite - which still reduces the cd of penance via ToT afaik. I agree its a talent that seems more suitable for 5 mans, but atm I'm running the available dungeons on atonement heals, the occasional shield and free flash procs. I had to use poh quite little, as for spirit shell, I just cant find its place yet. The free flashes are nice for stacking grace too, especially if I choose to use penance for evangelism stacks.

#55 Havoc12

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

Here are some numbers for you to digest

Inner fire increase the effectiveness of spells by roughly 5.2% at my level of spellpower. I don't think that is likely to change, even if our spellpower increased. I think the % increase will remain the same.

Level 87 with my values:
Unbuffed (10560sp, 8.82% crit, 29.52% mastery --> aegis crit bonus = 25.13%) in inner will

Aegis bonus = 2.2*(1+mastery)*(crit), where crit and master are the %values divided by 100

PWS = 49241
flash = 33360 (43368 with grace and 54266 with crit and aegis)
Heal = 20818 (27063 with grace and 33287 with crit and aegis)
Renew = 21 056 (27373 with grace 33669 with crit and aegis)

With stat, spellpower and mastery buff (11 616sp, 9.14% crit, 37.95% mastery --> aegis crit bonus = 27.8%)

PWS = 56265
flash = 35787 base 46523 +grace, 59456+crit/aegis

The difference is halfed with just buffs. I think there is a crit buff but not quite sure how much it adds, but that can have quite a strong impact on FH since crit rates are low. But that does not take overheal into account.

Nevertheless casting PWS is a large HPS gain over FH even if we ignore OH due to borrowed time. Since lose 5% on one cast but gain 15% haste on the next 1-4 casts.

PWS in inner will is also 15% cheaper than FH, so again a significant boost to HPM.

That of course excludes FDCL, which would make flash cheaper.

Mindbender atm attacks 12 with borrowed time at my current haste level times and returns 81% of my mana pool (+10% from HoH) when chained with PWS/HoH. That is 55% more than shadowfiend. That requires 13 FDCL procs or 65 casts of procing spells. If you are casting 1 FDCL procing spell per 3s (This is very reasonable) that means 2.29minutes for the same mana return. This is of course contingent on casting 1 FDCL procing spell per 3s.

I compared both strats:
1) mindbender and PWS (when someone is likely to take a lot of dmg)/renew/penance/holy fire in inner will

2)FDCL and flash (when someone is taking big damage)/heal/penance/holy fire with PWS only on tank for rapture in inner fire

Strategy two is easier and more responsive hands down. Unfortunately it burns my mana extremely fast. The reason? Part of it is that heal is bugged and does not heal as much as renew atm. The biggest reason however is that A LOT of FDCL procs go into overheal since I use them preferentially when they are up. Strings of FDCL procs also force me to significantly delay penance use sometimes. Thus the return of the FDCL procs is not quite what I calcualted. The difference is that with strat 2 my group is mostly full health on the bunny encounter in brewery but by the end I am kinda gasping for mana, while with strat 1 ppl spend more time with larger health deficits, but I have no mana problems at all. The majority of Flash crits go into overheal, while now that I know the damage pattern I can get almost all my PWSs absorbed. In addition I do end up casting non FDCL flashes quite frequently when I get an unlucky string of no procs during a bad time.

Overall strat 1 in my hands is superior for HPM, but much more difficult to play with. Strat2 is easier but drains my mana faster, exactly as I expected. Switching to inner will with FDCL and casting more PWS immediately addresses the mana problem.

So strat 1 with FDCL instead of mindbender in dungeons at the moment is superior in my hands, despite being slightly less mana efficient, because it is much easier to heal ppl up. Strat 1 with mindbender is also tricky if you don't know what damage to expect. PWS are extremely large and don't always get absorbed if you are not careful.

#56 Havoc12

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:57 PM

Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.


Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.

Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana

Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana.


Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc.

That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT.


But what would we need IW for?

True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.

Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.


While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.

I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.


We do have sufficient haste for renew 5 thanks to borrowed time. I cast a bunch of renews when I get borrowed time. Even renew 4 outperforms heal both in HPCT and in HPM in inner will right now (3.5k mana compared with 3.2k mana, but heal does not benefit from grace).

FDCL just makes healer easier in 5 mans. Its an absolute non-brainer for holy due to the synergy with greater heal, but for disc it actually underperforms in my hands. Its return is far lower than calculated.

Your making the usual theorycrafter mistake when thinking about tank healing, which is ignoring overheal. Even if you cast nothing but 1 PWS every 15seconds, which is not the case due to the divine insight. Every heal except PWS is highly likely to overheal. SpS much more so due to its 8s duration. Heal you will mostly be casting when the tank is full after SpS and the majority of them will overheal partially or completely. For the same reason a lot of the FDCL procs overheal. Looking at disc tank healing on live you are looking at least 20-30% OH and well over half your casts overheal. If there is two healers on the tank even more so. Thus the spellpower bonus from IF is almost completely wasted. Tank healing with inner will means that casting 1 PWS every 15 seconds is equivalent to 480mp5, with completely negligible loss in HPS. Actually IF right now makes things a lot worse, because it makes it slightly harder to absorb a PWS. Try it out and you will see, you will end up with a ton more mana at the end of the fight.

In the finished product DI is likely to be functional so we will probably be able to cast PWS more frequently, since it boosts HPS, while the HPS benefit of just being in inner will over IW is so small that its tough to observe on logs. I used to switch back and forth between IW and IF on live when tank healing so I would use my mana, until I checked the logs. There was no observable difference between being in IF and IW.

SpS does not perform better than heal and renew, except on paper. In real terms it is terribad. It absorbs so much that it invariably expires partly unused and with tank self healing, pom jumps, renew ticking and PWS which takes at least 10s to go, the heal is almost complete overheal. I rarely cast it and most of the time its a non tank target and cursing my luck because renew is too risky and penance on CD.

For AoE healing on live I am permanently in inner will since 1:1 PWS/PoH is more HPS than straight PoH even with archangel on. Add to that the fact that a lot of PoHs are cast on groups which are either competely or partially full and PWS/PoH HPS is dramatically higher than straight PoH spam. Since inner will allows me to maintain a higher PWS to PoH ration I am in IW permanently. If I cast 2:1 PoH/PWS in MoP, I will also be in inner will for aoe healing.

Instead of arguing here I urge you to try my strat out in a dungeon (as disc ofc) and post your results.

#57 Barlow

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:26 AM

Your making the usual theorycrafter mistake when thinking about tank healing, which is ignoring overheal. Even if you cast nothing but 1 PWS every 15seconds, which is not the case due to the divine insight.


Since PI has no mana costs... why on earth would I spec DI?


Every heal except PWS is highly likely to overheal. SpS much more so due to its 8s duration. Heal you will mostly be casting when the tank is full after SpS and the majority of them will overheal partially or completely. For the same reason a lot of the FDCL procs overheal.


Why would FDCL procs overheal? They stack a 20s buff which refreshes. It's your choice to use it.

Looking at disc tank healing on live you are looking at least 20-30% OH and well over half your casts overheal. If there is two healers on the tank even more so. Thus the spellpower bonus from IF is almost completely wasted.


If SP is wasted, mana conserve is wasted as well...

Tank healing with inner will means that casting 1 PWS every 15 seconds is equivalent to 480mp5, with completely negligible loss in HPS. Actually IF right now makes things a lot worse, because it makes it slightly harder to absorb a PWS. Try it out and you will see, you will end up with a ton more mana at the end of the fight.


Willing to try but how on earth would I end up with "a ton more mana" given that I sacrifice 5% Healing for 15%less mana, thus only gaining a raw 10% on instants, of which I only use one - and that just to get mana...

In the finished product DI is likely to be functional so we will probably be able to cast PWS more frequently


We would be - if we'd spam SpS a lot. But then again, at the current state: Why on earth would we want to cast PW:S often? And forfeit PI mana savings just to do so? (PI not only adds SF ticks, it costs nothing AND reduces mana costs by 20% - you'd seriously give that up for the off chance to get an additional shot on the most expensive heal in our arsenal?

For AoE healing on live I am permanently in inner will since 1:1 PWS/PoH is more HPS than straight PoH even with archangel on.


Why would I ever skill Archangel at the moment? ;)

Add to that the fact that a lot of PoHs are cast on groups which are either competely or partially full and PWS/PoH HPS is dramatically higher than straight PoH spam. Since inner will allows me to maintain a higher PWS to PoH ration I am in IW permanently. If I cast 2:1 PoH/PWS in MoP, I will also be in inner will for aoe healing.

Instead of arguing here I urge you to try my strat out in a dungeon (as disc ofc) and post your results.


Last time I tried I went out of every boss encouter with 80%+ Mana, still applying for Holy spec. (And I got 372 gear+ what I picked up during that runs) so that kind of test unfortunately won't help us at all ;)

#58 Havoc12

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:37 AM

1) Since PI has no mana costs... why on earth would I spec DI?

2) Why would FDCL procs overheal? They stack a 20s buff which refreshes. It's your choice to use it.

3) If SP is wasted, mana conserve is wasted as well...

4) Willing to try but how on earth would I end up with "a ton more mana" given that I sacrifice 5% Healing for 15%less mana, thus only gaining a raw 10% on instants, of which I only use one - and that just to get mana...


5) We would be - if we'd spam SpS a lot. But then again, at the current state: Why on earth would we want to cast PW:S often? And forfeit PI mana savings just to do so? (PI not only adds SF ticks, it costs nothing AND reduces mana costs by 20% - you'd seriously give that up for the off chance to get an additional shot on the most expensive heal in our arsenal?

6) Why would I ever skill Archangel at the moment? ;)

7)Last time I tried I went out of every boss encouter with 80%+ Mana, still applying for Holy spec. (And I got 372 gear+ what I picked up during that runs) so that kind of test unfortunately won't help us at all ;)


1) Because for tank healing it will probably be more HPS than PI and with inner will you will get enough mana back from rapture to sustain the extra mana drain. The situation was the same on live when firelands started

2) Classic mistake number2. If I sit on it I lose procs, because it only stacks to 2. Since I always use spells that proc it with strat 2, if I dont use the procs faster than I generate it I lose value dramatically.

3) Classic mistake number3. Absolutely not. Lets say the tank has deficit X. If casting a heal twice will top him to full whether you have IF or not then all ur extra spellpower is wasted but that does not mean you dont have to spam. If 5% SP can help you reduce the number of casts you need more than 1-2%, you will have serious trouble healing it and a high chance of failure.

4) IW reduces cost of instants by 15%. That means you save 1/6th of a cast every time. At level 87 over a 2-3minute fight you are looking at 10-20k extra mana.

5) Already answered. Because you get better return on rapture and extra BT procs. That is a lot more mana then 2.5% haste and 2.5% reduced spellcosts, contingent on using PI on CD (which is highly unlikely since you will end up wasting it). If you are aoe healing PI will be better, if you are tank healing DI will be better. ToF might be competitive in both senarios, depending on the fight specifics.

6) I was talking about live. Still archangel is likely to be strong if you are mostly spamming poh/pws and you need throughput.

7) Did you try at lvl 85 with holy? And how long was each fight? At 85 with a holy spec I had no problem in a 4minute sha of doubt fight, my mana was just not going down. Keeping renews on ppl permanently with heal/FDCL flash and HW:serenity, means I almost never cast anything with a big mana cost and when the time comes to hit a GH or PoH its usually 20% cheaper. Shadowfiend brings my bar back to full. At lvl 87 however its less easy because of the spellcost inflation. FDCL is an absolute no brainer for holy in 5mans, but its not at all the same for disc.

===============

PS for the sake of completeness, sfiend can squeeze 10 GCDs in 15s (11 attacks). The haste break points are 11.11%, 25%, 42.86%. According to my char tooltip I have I have 9.42% haste, 25.83% with borrowed time, 31.30% with PI, 51% with PI and BT. Yes, PI helps hit that 3rd breakpoint, but its not so easy to chain it with fiend, unless you are happy to waste the haste part of it and just use it for regen. (I know the values are surprising that is what the tooltip says though seems like haste stacks multiplicatively i.e. 9.42% and 15% --> 1.0942*1.15 = 1.258675).

I will check to see if this is a tooltip error later

#59 Havoc12

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:03 PM

I tested it. With PI and borrowed time I am getting 14 hits (+3) out of the mindbender. Unfortunately it seems that if the mind bender misses you get no mana back! This was supposed to be fixed ages ago.

#60 Moanique

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:08 AM

Void tendrils appear to work very differently from what is advertised. I was going from mob to mob in westfall and was able to grasp one after another without triggering any CD. If I stood next to a mob and cast tendrils multiple times I got the mob grasped by multiple tendrils, but still on CD was triggered. I wonder if its a bug or if its by design.

The mobs are attacking the void tendrils now, but since you can spam it you can pretty much root them forever


I didn't see anyone respond to this so I will. This is most likely a bug. Void Tendrils should be on a 30-second cooldown.




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