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Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion


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#41 Neara

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:19 PM

When I tested this on the last beta build, it kept my %health constant when I clicked off the buff. I believe it has also kept my % health constant when I apply the buff, though I have not tested that as thoroughly.


Just tested Fortifying Brew a bit.
Activating it doubles your maxHP and Heals you by 100% of your normal maxHP. When FB ends you lose those HP you just got healed for, if you are below 50% HP (your normal maxHP) when it ends it puts you at 1HP.

Your own heals (Expel Harm, Healing Sphere) can be used while FB is active, still not a CD i'd want to use as a tank.

#42 voltarin

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:02 PM

Guard now has a 30 second CD which is not mirrored in the tooltip or icon

#43 DarthMetatron

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

Guard now has a 30 second CD which is not mirrored in the tooltip or icon


Yeah, I didn't realize it until I logged in to do some 5-man dungeons with my Monk. Boy, was I in for a surprise...

It's like Death Strike, that doesn't heal, do damage, or stack. Now it's on a 30 second cooldown. I can still use my Ox clicks I guess, but now I have to tell people "Don't click on my Ox please".

I'm finding it hard to get into the class at this point. I feel like a DPS who is wearing a lot of Dodge/Parry gear that can't keep agro on groups on mobs (I know threat is broken) with 100 buttons staring me in the face that don't really make a difference as to which one I push. It feels like it doesn't make anything better or worse when trying different abilities.

Low HP, low armor, and low Dodge. High Parry. Mastery seems "Eh" so far. It just feels like an Alpha to me.

I also feel like there are so many abilities available to use, but none of them seem to be the champion of the class (like I thought Guard was supposed to be, but 30 seconds is too long. Maybe 15?).

(I put a * in front of the abilities I think are ok in their current form.)

Avert Harm - I killed myself with this, hah. Use with Meditation in big AoE phase?

Fortifying Brew - LOL? Can't be used with Touch of Death on bosses, very situational. Would prefer if I never have to rely on this.

*Expel Harm - I use it on CD. It's almost like the missing component for Guard (making it essentially Death Strike for 2 GCDs and 15/30 sec CD)

Dematerialize - Haven't gotten this yet, but this seems like a good cooldown except that you lose all threat when used...

Ring of Peace NYI - If it can't be used on bosses, it is worthless. Exploitable in its current description.

*Elusive Brew - Use on CD.

*Dizzying Haze - 9% additional chance to not take an attack with 3 stacks.

Guard - 30 sec CD is too long for 38k absorb.

Purifying Brew - only worth using with Shuffle?

Shuffle - could be a double-edged sword. Need a parse of equal level raid situation to see how easily stagger damage + non-staggered attacks can create a huge mana dump for healers.

* Tiger Palm - use Above 50% boss health

* Blackout Kick - use Below 50% boss health (or during procs)

Leer of the Ox - Statue has about 46k HP, worthless unless there is a predictable single attack coming that will kill you. But then you lose your "Guard stick". The alternative is to put it 40 yards away from the boss and have the raid follow while beating on it, but that seems less than ideal.


My normal "rotation" (I know we are using a "priority system" but this is an example) starts like this:

(0 Chi) (Summon Ox Statue)
Provoke (Pull)
Dizzying Haze (1)
Clobber
Elusive Brew (45 sec CD)
Tiger Palm (1)
Dizzying Haze (2)
Tiger Palm (2)
Dizzying Haze (3)
Tiger Palm (3)
Tiger Palm (3)
Tiger Palm (3)
Dizzying Haze (3)
Clobber
Clobber
<Elusive Brew Effect Ends>
Guard (30 sec CD)
Expel Harm (15 sec CD)

At this point it's normally rotating Dizzying Haze/Clobber/Tiger Palm (Blackout Kick proc) for 15 seconds until Expel harm is up. Then 16 seconds later Guard is up (with Expel Harm) and finally Elusive Brew again shortly afterwards.

Clobber for Chi
Dizzying Haze (3 stacks for 9% "Missfire" effect)
Tiger Palm (3 stacks for 15% increased Guard effect
Expel Harm (increased by 30% while under the effect of Guard)
Use Blackout Kick on proc.
Shuffle followed (3 seconds later) by Purifying Brew for Big Cooldown (45 Sec CD)
Dematerialize for Big Cooldown (45 Sec CD)


Questions I have unanswered/unresearched:
1 Missfire (Dizzying Haze, Keg Smash) = 1 Attack you don't take? If so, then Keg Smash also should be worked into the priority as well.
Energy Dump? I feel like I only use energy for Dizzying Haze at this point and it seems like a waste having a resource pool of its own.

#44 PowerBaton

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

about Dematerialize, it makes you lost all threat, like paladins bubble

#45 krekot

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:06 PM

Monk - Skills

  • Blackout Kick - Additional damage now over 6 sec, down from 8 sec.
  • Expel Harm - Now costs 6% of base mana, up from 2%. Now has a 10 yd range, up from melee range.
  • Fortifying Brew - After Fortifying Brew ends, you will be healed for the amount abosrbed.
  • Jab - Now costs 6% of base mana, up from .5%.
  • Stance of the Fierce Tiger - Text removed: Allows use of abilities under jurisdiction of the White Tiger, such as offensive damage abilities.


Monk - Talents

  • Charging Ox Wave - Now knockbacks everyone in a 40 yard range, up from 5.
  • Dampen Harm New: You dampen the damage from the most harmful attacks done to you. The next 3 attacks that deal damage equal to 10% or more of your total health are reduced in half. 1 Chi, Instant cast, 30 sec cooldown.
  • Healing Elixers New: Anytime you drink from a Brew or Tea, you gain 10% of your total health. This effect cannot occur once every 15 sec.
  • Momentum - Everytime you Roll or Chi Torpedo, your movement speed is increased by 25% (was 30%) for 10 sec. Stacks up to 2 times.


Monk - Brewmaster

  • Breath of Fire - Now does 1,400 to 1,786 damage, down from 2,001 to 2,552.
  • Brewmaster Training - No longer makes Tiger Palm cost no Chi.
  • Clashing Ox Charge New: You and the enemy target meet halfway, stunning the target for 2 sec. 40 yd range, Instant cast, 35 sec cooldown.
  • Dizzying Haze - Deals a high amount of threat.
  • Guard - Now has a 30 sec cooldown.
  • Keg Smash - Now costs 40 Energy instead of 1 Chi. Generates 2 Chi.
  • Purifying Brew - Now has a 6 sec cooldown, down from 45.
  • Shuffle - No longer has a cooldown.
  • Stance of the Sturdy Ox - Now also increases your total health by 30%.

Great changes. Now monks have high aoe treath ability. I suppose Purifying Brew with 6 sec cooldown would be use always on cd, and maybe make macro for all skillis. And 30% more health.

#46 Thargos

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

The current cooldown changes to Shuffle and Purifying Brew makes me wonder if there will be any changes to the Brewmaster's mastery. Reducing the staggered dot amount won't really matter if you can clear it every 6 seconds, so the mastery's effect will be reduced to only increasing the Guard ability.

Increasing the CHANCE to stagger an attack on the other hand would decrease the value of shuffle with raising item levels. Maybe some passive DR like increased armor would be an option.

#47 DarthMetatron

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

Last night I had fun trying to tank the 5-man with my premade Brewmaster.

Some observations:
140k buffed HP, Brewmaster has equal or less HP than Rogue, DK, Druid and Hunters in my party (non-tank premades)
11k Armor, almost 0 mitigation, when you get hit, you really get hit.
30% avoidance (25% Dodge, 5% Parry)
25% Stagger

In 10 attacks, an average of 3 are avoided and of those 7 remaining attacks, 1.75 are Staggered. You are still taking 5.25 full unmitigated hits, plus stagger damage.

I gemmed for Mastery before I started, but it seems I'm going to have to gem for Avoidance instead.

Elusive Brew, Shuffle + Purifying Brew, Guard + Expel Harm were the abilities I used on bosses. Avert Harm tends to lessen my survivability so I'm not using it. I did use Avert Harm + Meditation during Anger and Strife, I was just so happy that I got to use it! LOL

Still got hit for 70k+ with every Dragon Kick from Liu Flameheart. No magic mitigation because of the 30 second Guard CD it is ludacris. Half the time I just run around kiting the boss and hoping not to get hit by abilities because they would one-shot me.
Cool
Doing it with the Brewmaster was a very stressful wipefest and not fun at all whereas doing this dungeon on my Blood DK, I felt like "Cool, that dungeon was fun and quick!"

#48 Kawa

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:27 PM

Still got hit for 70k+ with every Dragon Kick from Liu Flameheart. No magic mitigation because of the 30 second Guard CD it is ludacris. Half the time I just run around kiting the boss and hoping not to get hit by abilities because they would one-shot me.
Cool


I won't disagree that the current Guard mechanic needs to be changed to be in line with the up time of the other tanks, the cool down for the actual ability is too high. However, Black Ox Statues are ridiculously overpowered. I have one kill of Liu where I literally took zero damage because of +15% Guards and Disc shields. It's a very clunky mechanic and needs to be changed. Also, the Guard shields on yourself from the statues scale with your mastery.
Disc healer log
Holy healer log(400K higher damage taken, NO GUARD SPAM)

However, the incoming damage is not unhealable by any stretch. When I was healing these instances as Mistweaver pretty much every premade 85 tank was getting destroyed by her, but even Brewmasters that never used Guard were healable.

I will readily admit I have no idea exactly how to go about things in the logs. All I did was split the logs from first attack to the death of the mob, and removed all Misfire lines. All of this is with an 87 Brewmaster monk in MoP green/blues and no reforging. Stats here.

There are a couple other full logs and some Sha of Doubt logs on that WoL also if anyone is interested.

#49 DarthMetatron

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

Yeah, I think things are better than they were since I posted on the 11th. 30% HP Buff and at least you can Shuffle/Purifying Brew ad nauseum now. Haven't had much time to test since these changes went into effect.

#50 Disargeria

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:13 AM

So the change to shuffle is...

Shuffle has been removed.

Brewmaster Training now causes Blackout Kicks to make you Stagger the next 3 hits against you.

Dizzying Haze no longer stacks, looks to only have 3% misfire total. Keg Smash now automatically applies it, as well as the -10% physical damage debuff.

Breath of Fire now puts a DoT on DH targets, making it a lot more like the original WC3 ability.

Fortifying Brew has been adjusted and now reduces damage by 20% instead of absorbing healing. This is effectively our Shield Wall.

Avert Harm was massively overbuffed to 50%.

Expel Harm generates Chi and should be much much more useful for tanks.

Overall, fantastic changes for Brewmasters.
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#51 dracjin

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:43 AM

So the change to shuffle is...

Dizzying Haze no longer stacks, looks to only have 3% misfire total. Keg Smash now automatically applies it, as well as the -10% physical damage debuff.


It is still stacking, only lacking tool tip.


New Tank Glyphs:

Glyph of Breath of Fire: When you use Breath of Fire on targets that have 3 stacks of Dizzying Haze, they become Disoriented for 3 sec.

Glyph of Dizzying Haze: You apply two stacks of Dizzying Haze when cast, instead of one.

Glyph of Guard: Increases the amount your Guard absorbs by 10%, but your Guard can only absorb magical damage.

#52 h4rr0d

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:15 AM

It is still stacking, only lacking tool tip.


New Tank Glyphs:

Glyph of Breath of Fire: When you use Breath of Fire on targets that have 3 stacks of Dizzying Haze, they become Disoriented for 3 sec.

Glyph of Dizzying Haze: You apply two stacks of Dizzying Haze when cast, instead of one.

Glyph of Guard: Increases the amount your Guard absorbs by 10%, but your Guard can only absorb magical damage.


If the Dizzying haze was still tacking, there would be the number of stacks on the icon (and there is not). Either the stacking is bugged right now or (and that's what my money's on) the glyphs are outdated.

Here's screeny to show how the stacking and not stacking debuff looks in combat log:
Posted Image
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#53 Disargeria

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:24 PM

New NEW Stagger mechanic on beta:

-Stagger now happens on every single attack.
-Stagger now does 70% damage up front, 30% later.
-DoT lasts 10 seconds, up from 8.

Combined with:

-Mastery changed to increase parry chance and reduce damage of stagger DoT.

And Shuffle (the proc from using Blackout Kick):

-Increases parry chance by 30%
-Redirects an additional 20% of damage when you stagger (changes it to 50% reduced, 50% DoT (reduced by mastery))
-Has a 6 sec duration rather than charges.

Means we finally have a working active/passive mitigation and "block" mechanic that scales.
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#54 Brotherbear

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:21 PM

I can't see these changes making it to live without something fundamental changing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're looking at being able to chain BoK with Elusive Brew to effectively have 85% avoidance completely naked. Add in the miss chance and you'd only need about 12% dodge (easily gotten through agility alone) to be completely unhittable for 10 seconds every 45.

Am I missing something here?

#55 Yörgle

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:24 AM

I can't see these changes making it to live without something fundamental changing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're looking at being able to chain BoK with Elusive Brew to effectively have 85% avoidance completely naked. Add in the miss chance and you'd only need about 12% dodge (easily gotten through agility alone) to be completely unhittable for 10 seconds every 45.

Am I missing something here?

No you are not missing something. :)
I tried it yesterday, and I was above 100% avoidance with my gear on, with 80% not affected by DR. Being able to have that with a 20% uptime can't be right (nor fun, tbh).

#56 Pinga

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

I notice that Blackout Kick adds 6s to the duration of Suffle, instead just renewing it.

#57 Yörgle

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:47 PM

I notice that Blackout Kick adds 6s to the duration of Suffle, instead just renewing it.

Up to 12 seconds, though, from what I tested.
If you have, say 8 seconds left and use your BoK, Shuffle will stay at 8 sec and decrease normally (meaning that you basically wasted 2 chi). I don't know if it's intended.

#58 Oatz17

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:16 PM

The problem with the new fortifying brew is that it lacks comparable mitigation to non melee hits as the other tanks' "shield wall." Part of the traditional 50% mitigation is now allocated to shuffle, which is for melee hits. You typically don't shield wall to protect against these kinds of attacks. The hp increase they had before was interesting and still an overall EH increase.
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#59 buzzed1979

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

I may have missed it but, do monks get any avoidance from agil like feral druids do, or is it straight dodge and parry stats only? I do not see it in the tooltip in game, but i ran so many addons I am not sure if in live that it may have been an addon that showed it on my druid.

#60 Yörgle

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

I may have missed it but, do monks get any avoidance from agil like feral druids do, or is it straight dodge and parry stats only? I do not see it in the tooltip in game, but i ran so many addons I am not sure if in live that it may have been an addon that showed it on my druid.

That probably an addon like Statrating (event if this one is not up to date), the game itself doesn't display percentage gained from stats and scores in the tooltip. :)

And yes, Agility provides dodge.




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