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[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players


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#21 Exemplar

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

From the new Beta build information on MMO-C (build 15640), it seems that every ability will scale from SP alone and not from AP (directly, anyways).

It looks like things scale from one or the other, not exclusively SP (reference Exo).

I think this is just some (belated) cleanup in design. Ret Spellpower wasn't just AP/2 due to all-stats enchants and raid buffs like Kings/MoW. Holy AP wasn't just their base value for the same reasons. It produces some (rather small) double-dipping. MoP would just exacerbate this as stat bonuses are seeing another big leap.

Instead of just assuming Holy have zero AP buffed and Ret have zero SP buffed (before AP->SP conversion), it looks like they're taking the simple route: Build a spell to function solely on one of the two values (SP or AP, never both). They can then always know that Ret SP = AP/2 and Holy AP = baseline. I'd suspect that makes intended damage easier to balance. Produces a minor reduction in chance of wild buff/nerf cycles, and probably makes Holy soloing (especially leveling) easier to set precisely where they desire.

Regarding HoW - it looks like the intent is to remove HP from it. I'm thinking either it's still intended for use under AW (or Sanctified Wrath is pointless above 20%?!?), or SW is to be updated (hope so, I've constantly worried about SW's PvP impact). It may be designed as a non-RNG-based, under-20%, rotation changer. Produce enough damage to be desirable even before (some? all?) HP generators and you'd want to work it into your priority, but you couldn't use it all fight long. If that's the goal, I like the idea since it would alter priority on the fly (at 20%) without being the RNG rollercoaster or procs. However, in order for this to work the total damage done must average more than at least some of our HP generators (+1/3 of the TV they then don't produce). That always has PvP spike implications, especially in a sub-20% scenario.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#22 Jortong

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:56 PM

They added HoW to all specs. For prot and holy: Hammer of Wrath No longer generates a charge of Holy Power.
Ret still get HP and can use under AW

#23 Charybdis

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:06 PM

Tier set bonuses are up on MMO-C:

Item - Paladin T14 Retribution 2P Bonus - New: Increases the damage done by your Templar's Verdict ability by 15%.
Item - Paladin T14 Retribution 4P Bonus - New: Reduces the cooldown of your Avenging Wrath ability by 85 sec.


Adding on to TV is nothing new, but it's certainly effective.

The 4p seems like a typo to be honest. 85 seconds instead of 60 off a 180 second CD seems really odd, but I'm certainly not going to complain about a further shortened CD. We might keep it on CD, but it might prove better to wait and have Execution Sentence or Light's Hammer during that time.

Now that I think of it, 95 seconds might work out if used on CD so we can get GAnk during the same time too. 3*95=285, which is 15 seconds sooner than GAnK's 300 second CD.

As for the whole AP -> SP thing, I was wondering how soon Blizzard would take the Enhancement idea and give it to Ret. It makes things simpler on both ends, that's for sure.

I am curious about Seal of truth being based solely on SP now. Is it to let Holy use it? Seems a bit odd, but if Denounce, Holy Shock, or Judgment can stack it then there might be some interesting things Holy can do now. Or of course Holy can be at least somewhat effective in melee like all paladins should.

#24 Ronark

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:29 PM

It looks like things scale from one or the other, not exclusively SP (reference Exo).


Correct, every baseline ability will scale from SP directly, and spec specific abilities (Exorcism, probably Shield of the Righteous) will scale from AP as Holy can never use those abilities. Under this model, if the Damage on an ability is too low they can just adjust the SP coefficent instead of SP and AP.

Also, it appears that Devotion Aura is now a Class Skill.

#25 Exemplar

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:12 PM

I am curious about Seal of truth being based solely on SP now. Is it to let Holy use it?

Initial assumption would be: one knob to tune (just SP instead of SP and AP) and Holy would use for solo DPS (i.e. leveling) purposes. SoI would continue to be used for healing/raiding, since it gives a healing bonus but no bonus damage. The SP coefficient would likely be tuned for effective Ret use (AP/2->SP), which indirectly means Holy would simply get much beefier SoT. Quality of life improvement for Holy leveling/grinding/dailies.

Thanks, Jortong. That causes HoW to make much more sense and requires no SW rework. I continue to ponder the PvP implications.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#26 Handled

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:01 AM

I did some checking on the gems and while I'm sure you would have changed this at some point.

Reverberating Primal Diamond
+216 Strength and 3% Increased Critical Effect
Item Level 90
"They thought bosses just fell over the first night because of the tag over their head, and the most important thing was how much damage they could do at all times. Newsflash - it doesn't work like that."

#27 aylen86

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:05 AM

New build: Small buffs to Divine Storm (weapon damage +10%, now 6% healing with glyph) and Glyph of Exorcism is most likely a no-brainer now:

Glyph of Hammer of Wrath is now Glyph of Exorcism and now affects Exorcism.
(-10% damage for 10 secs after Exo)


I guess the HoW change is only a shift from AP to spellpower and damage values stay relatively equal.

#28 Teleros

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:49 PM

It's a slight buff to HoW I think: 71% AP to 161% SP, unless we get that much more AP that doesn't convert to SP at least. I can't believe the Exo glyph will make it to Live (for long) though, 10% damage reduction for 2/3 of a fight (at least) seems a bit too powerful for an optional glyph.

#29 Antigenic

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:23 PM

It's a slight buff to HoW I think: 71% AP to 161% SP, unless we get that much more AP that doesn't convert to SP at least.


If Sword of Light remains at 50% AP -> SP, then this is indeed a slight buff to HoW.

Previous: 14,000 AP x 0.71 = 9,940

Current: 14,000 AP x (0.5 SP / 1 AP) x 1.61 = 11,270

#30 lîte

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:53 PM

Looks like Hammer of Wrath got another nerf to its base damage:

Hammer of Wrath base damage has been reduced by 60%.


Damage went from (4,454 + 161% SP) to (1,838 + 161% SP)

#31 Nythan

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

I was curious about how the 4pc bonus will help us pick our talents.
It seemed that the Zealotry talent was superior before much beta testing was done. But with the 4pc bonus bringing AW down, it seems we have a choice to make. We can either hold off the AW to line it up with Zealotry (2min CD from what i can see. unfortunately not in Beta), but that seems a DPS loss since the 4pc is supposed to give us more AW.
We could separate the AW and Zealotry after the first use(3 AWs would be 255s, 2 Zealotry's would be 240. So only a 15sec delay for the second Zealotry) which seems to be the best case.
OR, we could pick up the Sanctified Wrath talent, which would let us spam HoW. But with these nerf's to HoW (no HP, then the dmg nerf that just hit), would this be a DPS loss? My gut says yes(as we wouldnt be getting as many TV's) If it is a significant loss, then the talents choices arent really "interesting" as one is clearly superior.

#32 Ronark

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:09 PM

Nothing can be calculated this early in beta with DPS numbers; we can however, calculate the HP gains from SW, Holy Avenger, etc and relatively determine how much use each talent will be. Remember: Ret still has use of HoW under AW, as well as gaining Holy Power from HoW.

#33 Takamuri

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:11 PM

Am I correct in assuming that as of right now the only uses for the 5 pool of holy power are:

1) Long duration fights: To provide even shorter Inquisition downtime: only use TV/DS at 5 so you are always a max of 1 HP away from refreshing Inq.

2) Short duration burst where you do not need to worry about refreshing Inq:
Say you have a 5 second window to do damage, or AOE:
5HP: TV -> CS -> TV
5HP: DS -> HOTR -> DS

Are there any other real uses?

#34 Grigorim

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:31 PM

Are there any other real uses?


Yes, every situation benefits from the 5 HP cap. There is no CD on TV. There are CDs on all our filler abilities. By maximizing HP-generating filler usage and only using TV at 5 HP (or when no HP-generating fillers are available for use), we use fillers more often (which are worth their raw damage plus 1/3 of a TV), thus maximizing HP generation and increasing the numbers of TVs used throughout a fight. It is not solely due to "shorter Inquisition downtime" on "long duration fights. On any boss fight, you will increase the number of TVs used by preferring fillers to TV unless you're 5-capped (or all fillers are on CD and you have 3-4 HP).

#35 Ronark

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:44 PM

Additionally, we will get more damage in a shorter window frame for times when bosses are vulnerable for a short window, akin to Hagara. This also has PvP implications.

#36 Trademark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:09 PM

As of the latest patch, exorcism cd is also reduced by sanctity of battle. Should help reduce the dps loss and smooth out the rotation in case AoW doesn't proc.

#37 Sha_

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:10 AM

I was curious about how the 4pc bonus will help us pick our talents.
It seemed that the Zealotry talent was superior before much beta testing was done. But with the 4pc bonus bringing AW down, it seems we have a choice to make. We can either hold off the AW to line it up with Zealotry (2min CD from what i can see. unfortunately not in Beta), but that seems a DPS loss since the 4pc is supposed to give us more AW.
We could separate the AW and Zealotry after the first use(3 AWs would be 255s, 2 Zealotry's would be 240. So only a 15sec delay for the second Zealotry) which seems to be the best case.
OR, we could pick up the Sanctified Wrath talent, which would let us spam HoW. But with these nerf's to HoW (no HP, then the dmg nerf that just hit), would this be a DPS loss? My gut says yes(as we wouldnt be getting as many TV's) If it is a significant loss, then the talents choices arent really "interesting" as one is clearly superior.


If i'm not mistaken HoW still give HP to Ret paladins.

#38 lîte

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:53 AM

If i'm not mistaken HoW still give HP to Ret paladins.


Correct. Currently Hammer of Wrath still gives a charge of holy power to ret only. It was only removed for prot and holy.

#39 Sha_

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:42 AM

Can you guys confirm if Sanctity of Battle still affects Hammer of the Righteous as Ret?

Read somewhere that it was removed

#40 Fordragon

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:43 AM

Can you guys confirm if Sanctity of Battle still affects Hammer of the Righteous as Ret?

Read somewhere that it was removed


It still does since it shares cd with CS.On beta my CS has the same cd as HotR.




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