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SimulationCraft for Hunters (Panda edition)


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#41 Lokrick

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:54 PM

I've noticed that Beast Cleave isn't implemented for BM Hunters. Could you add it?


I took a look today, but to implement it, I need a clear characterization of the effect. The second-hand characterization I have so far doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'll eventually get time to answer these questions myself, but if someone else can do so, it will move the implementation along. Here's several questions, some of which I've heard conflicting answers to:
  • Which abilities are affected?
  • Is it a separate attack for each target?
  • Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent?
  • What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
  • Do stampede pets also get the buff?
  • Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?)


#42 NoGoal

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

  • Which abilities are affected? Basic and Melee attacks.
  • Is it a separate attack for each target?
  • Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent? It doesn't crit, but if 'main' attack crits, it does calculate from crit to all targets
  • What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
  • Do stampede pets also get the buff? No
  • Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?) KC doesn't trigger it in 5.2

Some examples (Tauren with Devilsaur in raid):
Pet Hit 11156 -> Beast Cleave 5801-5802
Pet Crit 22312 -> Beast Cleave 11602
Bite Crit 28097 -> Beast Cleave 14611

#43 Lokrick

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:14 PM

  • Which abilities are affected? Basic and Melee attacks.
  • Is it a separate attack for each target?
  • Can it crit each target and if so, are they independent? It doesn't crit, but if 'main' attack crits, it does calculate from crit to all targets
  • What buffs and debuffs apply to each target?
  • Do stampede pets also get the buff? No
  • Are these answers different in 5.3 (I think it used to apply to KC but now doesn't with the buff?) KC doesn't trigger it in 5.2

Some examples (Tauren with Devilsaur in raid):
Pet Hit 11156 -> Beast Cleave 5801-5802
Pet Crit 22312 -> Beast Cleave 11602
Bite Crit 28097 -> Beast Cleave 14611


Those numbers are neither 30% nor 75%; I presume they are from some intermediate state on the PTR? Regardless, looking at the #2 BM parse from Wind Lord, the other questions are answered: It's not a separate attack (it's just a reflection of damage) and each target has their debuffs applied to the damage. In that log, the skull secondary targets takes consistently 4% more physical damage (suggesting a debuff), and Wind Lord takes a small fraction less (suggesting better armor since it doesn't correspond to a buff amount).

Edit: I had forgotten the 5.2 buff for Beast Cleave, which is fine since the key question is mechanics. My numbers above are from a January report when it was still 30%. Simc picks those numbers up automatically from spell data, so the buff was incorporated automatically.

#44 Effinhunter

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:40 PM

Those numbers are neither 30% nor 75%; I presume they are from some intermediate state on the PTR? Regardless, looking at the #2 BM parse from Wind Lord, the other questions are answered: It's not a separate attack (it's just a reflection of damage) and each target has their debuffs applied to the damage. In that log, the skull secondary targets takes consistently 4% more physical damage (suggesting a debuff), and Wind Lord takes a small fraction less (suggesting better armor since it doesn't correspond to a buff amount).


They appear to be the 50% modifier that is currently in 5.2. 30% was the previous value of Beast Cleave. We are currently at 50% in game, and we are being buffed to 75% on the 5.3 PTR.

#45 Lokrick

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

I've noticed that Beast Cleave isn't implemented for BM Hunters. Could you add it?


It's now implemented and will be in the next release. The one thing I'm unsure of is the handling of armor for the cleaved. Based on a little bit of log data, it looked to me like armor applies. However for vaguely similar abilities like blade flurry, the code ignores armor on secondary targets. Please PM me with any discrepancy you see in the result.

#46 cmwilli

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:10 AM

I wondered if anyone could comment on the following

I used this
actions+=/focus_fire,if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.up=1
I'm not sure if that is doing what I think it should do though if anyone can comment on it. If that is using Focus Fire only when the Rune procs, then it works out to a DPS loss of 5k over using Focus Fire normally with the Rune equipped. Intuitively that doesn't make much sense to me. I was thinking it just wouldn't have a large enough effect to make it worth using over other trinkets but not an actual loss. Using it normally, Focus Fire was used 6 times. Using it only when Rune procs, Focus Fire was used 10 times. This made me think using Focus Fire below 5 stacks is leading to the DPS loss. I ran the simulation again using
actions+=/focus_fire,five_stacks=1&if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.up=1
This gave me the error "Acceptable values for 'five_stacks' are '1' or '0'"
I tried switching the conditions around
actions+=/focus_fire,if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.up=1&five_stacks=1
This caused the program to crash. Anyone have any idea how to make simulation craft use Focus Fire only with 5 stacks and only when Rune procs?

#47 Lokrick

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 05:33 AM

I wondered if anyone could comment on the following

I used this

actions+=/focus_fire,if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.up=1
I'm not sure if that is doing what I think it should do though if anyone can comment on it. ...

I'm glad to hear about simc experiments! For your first example, if your action is in reaction to some change, then you should use "react" instead of "up". That includes player reaction time into triggering the action:
actions+=/focus_fire,if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.react
Additionally note that the result from "up" or "react" is the number of stacks, so if it's a stacking trinket, anything non-zero counts as true. Thus, we typically avoid comparing with a particular number. To include the "five stacks" test, the first version was almost right. However, the "five_stacks=1" is a parameter for the focus_fire, not part of the condition. Thus, I think you want:
actions+=/focus_fire,five_stacks=1,if=buff.rune_of_reorigination.react


#48 cmwilli

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

If anyone was curious. It comes out to a 3k loss over not waiting for the rune proc to use Fouse Fire. I'm not really sure why and don't know how to go any further in my analysis. Bad juju is a 6k increase over Rune anyways.

#49 Lokrick

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:22 PM

If anyone was curious. It comes out to a 3k loss over not waiting for the rune proc to use Fouse Fire. I'm not really sure why and don't know how to go any further in my analysis. Bad juju is a 6k increase over Rune anyways.


Thanks for the follow-up. A few directions if you want to explore this further:
  • compare with a version that doesn't use focus fire at all or that doesn't use focus fire but that uses a different trinket. This clarifies whether the reduction is simply because of reduced focus fire usage or because of some other interaction on the trinket
  • look at buff uptimes in the HTML output to compare the focus fire uptime to what you expect and the uptime of other RPPM items (since you may have lost haste)
  • compare ability usage (either in the abilities section or the raw abilities section at the bottom of the HTML output) to see where the damage loss is from adding your rule. For example, the loss of mastery during BW reduces pet damage a lot
It's no surprise that Rune is a dps loss vs. other tinrkets. Hunters have pretty balanced secondary stats with synergy between them, so we have not yet seen a viable strategy for it. For example, sacrificing crit for haste means you lose GffT procs so you lose damage in your main pet. Similarly, the opposite impacts other RPPM effects, may reduce the number of secondary pet attacks during stampede/dire-best/etc., and means your focus regen shots take a long time. It seems plausible that there are uses (gimmicks?) where it's a win (e.g., haste proc for MM during CA, but crit proc later), but they just haven't been found yet. So keep simulating!

#50 Lokrick

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:12 PM

The current download includes 5.3 changes, though the example profiles have not been updated to, for example, use Blink Strikes for high end BM specs. Gear and action list profiles welcome.

#51 Effinhunter

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 05:05 PM

The current simulation breakdown on the website does not appear to have the Tigerfang Wrap or upgraded gear. Will this be updated to reflect gear upgrades from 5.3?

#52 Teucer

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:45 PM

I'm running into a strange scenario with stat weighting and dps. I'm trying to determine the difference between reforging haste > crit and crit > haste for bm. In both cases the valuation of haste is about 0.3 more than crit, but the simulation when reforged to haste is about 3k dps LOWER than reforged to crit. Any thoughts on this? Did I hit some magical haste point that made haste better but up to that point crit was far better?

I'm using the default settings, 5 min patchwerk etc... Wowarmory profile

#53 Lokrick

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:29 AM

T16 changes have been in for a while. I've added some initial profiles for T16H with all the same gear. The gear profiles and action lists almost certainly need some spec-specific tuning.
374905  34.6%  Hunter_BM_T16H with ticking ebon detonator
359181  33.3%  Hunter_SV_T16H
349451  32.4%  Hunter_MM_T16H
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#54 pichuca

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:30 AM

which are the overall stats for the profile ?
FD shows a higher DPS on BM reforging to haste, while crit is superior for SV.
Ebon detonator should be a lot better for SV than Assurance of consecuence, since the CD reduction on Black Arrow is a very very marginal DPS boost, while BM gets reduced BW CD, which is bastly superior, as well as a superior stampede. So both specs should use Ebon detonator, and AoC for BM and Haromm's for SV.

Talents should also be noticeable, as it has been reported that TotH now can procc from itself on arcane shot (like multishot on live) which it didn't do for the earlier builds. That should make it the superior choice for SV, as it sinergyzes with the 2 piece tier which is still 8 secs for SV, while 4 for SV and MM.

#55 Lokrick

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:26 PM

which are the overall stats for the profile ?
FD shows a higher DPS on BM reforging to haste, while crit is superior for SV.
Ebon detonator should be a lot better for SV than Assurance of consecuence, since the CD reduction on Black Arrow is a very very marginal DPS boost, while BM gets reduced BW CD, which is bastly superior, as well as a superior stampede. So both specs should use Ebon detonator, and AoC for BM and Haromm's for SV.

Talents should also be noticeable, as it has been reported that TotH now can procc from itself on arcane shot (like multishot on live) which it didn't do for the earlier builds. That should make it the superior choice for SV, as it sinergyzes with the 2 piece tier which is still 8 secs for SV, while 4 for SV and MM.


Most unreforged items are crit/haste, so the gear doesn't have a lot of room for trading crit and haste. The full gear profiles are below (there's no difference in the reforging yet). The profiles will be included in the next release. I've tested all the specs with Ebon detonator vs. Haromms, and it was a 4k dps loss for SV and MM, but I haven't simmed talents variations, etc.

The TotH implementation is consistent with the new behavior: if arcane costs focus, it can trigger Thrill. There was a recently-fixed bug in which not enough stacks were being triggered. I haven't compared the talents since this was fixed. All the specs are currently set at Dire Beast, Blink Strikes, and Glaive Toss.

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#56 pichuca

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

The choice was not between Ebon Detonator and Haromms, but between Haromms and Assurance. Ebon detonator is likely to be BiS for every spec. Ill try to compare when I get home

#57 Lokrick

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:09 AM

... The gear profiles and action lists almost certainly need some spec-specific tuning.

With just the build 17331 buffs and no changes:
375465  34.2%  Hunter_BM_T16H
365437  33.3%  Hunter_SV_T16H
355865  32.4%  Hunter_MM_T16H
This seems too small a buff to be compelling (1.8% for MM), so I suspect action list changes are needed to take advantage of it.

Incidentally, I also tried tith trinket substitutions:
367922  33.9%  Hunter_BM_T16H replace Assurance with Haromms
362777  33.4%  Hunter_SV_T16H replace Assurance with Ebon Detonator
355447  32.7%  Hunter_MM_T16H replace Assurance with Ebon Detonator

All three substitutions are a (small) loss (which is consistent with Zeherah's results).

Edit: the biggest issue in the MM profile is that it doesn't properly handle the tier and other procs that affect Aimed casting speed. I tried a quick MM profile change I've been avoiding for a while, and it went from casting 21 aimed shots to casting 69 aimed shots. The result was an improvement, though it's astonishing that it was only an improvement by 4k. The problem with this way of constructing the profile is that it doesn't correctly incorporate reaction time to procs, so we will need a version that does.

actions+=/aimed_shot,if=cast_time<1.8

359422  100.0%  Hunter_MM_T16H

Replacing dire beast with fervor improves the MM profile further:
actions+=/aimed_shot,if=cast_time<1.7

362434  100.0%  Hunter_MM_T16H


#58 pichuca

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 08:35 AM

Thank you for the trinket comparison. Now that FD has all gear available, included HC WF items, I could see a difference of +-200-500 DPS on both trinkets for SV/MM.

It is odd that the Kill command 16% buff yields only 600 DPS, it should be a lot more noticeable. Also, for the MM profile, what does it do during CA phase? In FD it is a DPS increase to ignore SrS and CS, and casting only AiS + talents. And one last thing. To try totH for MM, can you make the sim to only cast AS when ToTH has procced? So you always harcast AiS as focus dump, except when AS costs 10 focus

#59 Rivkah

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:43 AM

There were a lot of bugs fixed in simc over the weekend. I've been getting a lot of requests for stat weight info and trinket priorities. I ran some sims for reference for anyone who is impatient for data and doesn't want to compile the latest simc. These are both in T15H gear since I figure short term people are more interested in what to focus on in the initial weeks of raiding. These also don't have upgrades on the gear because I was just using the gear profiles in simc and didn't feel like manually upgrading every piece.

Stat Weights (note these seemed to vary for BM from run to run, even with high iterations- I ran with 2 talent combos for BM since blink strike has such an effect on stat values)
Trinket Comparison (replacing heroic Bad Juju with the normal mode versions of each new trinket)

#60 Lokrick

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:03 PM

Since I ran the sims, here's the current T16H dps for all talents. This is pretty brute force: I ran the command independently for each spec and combined the results. So that others can see the approach:
>  simc10.exe threads=5 iterations=5000 Hunter_MM_T16H.simc copy=MM_111 talents=000111 copy=MM_112 talents=000112 copy=MM_113 talents=000113 copy=MM_121 talents=000121 copy=MM_122 talents=000122 copy=MM_123 talents=000123 copy=MM_131 talents=000131 copy=MM_132 talents=000132 copy=MM_133 talents=000133 copy=MM_211 talents=000211 copy=MM_212 talents=000212 copy=MM_213 talents=000213 copy=MM_221 talents=000221 copy=MM_222 talents=000222 copy=MM_223 talents=000223 copy=MM_231 talents=000231 copy=MM_232 talents=000232 copy=MM_233 talents=000233 copy=MM_311 talents=000311 copy=MM_312 talents=000312 copy=MM_313 talents=000313 copy=MM_321 talents=000321 copy=MM_322 talents=000322 copy=MM_323 talents=000323 copy=MM_331 talents=000331 copy=MM_332 talents=000332 copy=MM_333 talents=000333 | more

>  simc10.exe threads=5 iterations=5000 Hunter_SV_T16H.simc copy=SV_111 talents=000111 copy=SV_112 talents=000112 copy=SV_113 talents=000113 copy=SV_121 talents=000121 copy=SV_122 talents=000122 copy=SV_123 talents=000123 copy=SV_131 talents=000131 copy=SV_132 talents=000132 copy=SV_133 talents=000133 copy=SV_211 talents=000211 copy=SV_212 talents=000212 copy=SV_213 talents=000213 copy=SV_221 talents=000221 copy=SV_222 talents=000222 copy=SV_223 talents=000223 copy=SV_231 talents=000231 copy=SV_232 talents=000232 copy=SV_233 talents=000233 copy=SV_311 talents=000311 copy=SV_312 talents=000312 copy=SV_313 talents=000313 copy=SV_321 talents=000321 copy=SV_322 talents=000322 copy=SV_323 talents=000323 copy=SV_331 talents=000331 copy=SV_332 talents=000332 copy=SV_333 talents=000333 | more

> simc10.exe threads=5 iterations=5000 Hunter_BM_T16H.simc copy=bm_111 talents=000111 copy=bm_112 talents=000112 copy=bm_113 talents=000113 copy=bm_121 talents=000121 copy=bm_122 talents=000122 copy=bm_123 talents=000123 copy=bm_131 talents=000131 copy=bm_132 talents=000132 copy=bm_133 talents=000133 copy=bm_211 talents=000211 copy=bm_212 talents=000212 copy=bm_213 talents=000213 copy=bm_221 talents=000221 copy=bm_222 talents=000222 copy=bm_223 talents=000223 copy=bm_231 talents=000231 copy=bm_232 talents=000232 copy=bm_233 talents=000233 copy=bm_311 talents=000311 copy=bm_312 talents=000312 copy=bm_313 talents=000313 copy=bm_321 talents=000321 copy=bm_322 talents=000322 copy=bm_323 talents=000323 copy=bm_331 talents=000331 copy=bm_332 talents=000332 copy=bm_333 talents=000333 | more

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