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Blood Tanking - Actively Mitigating since before it was cool


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#321 snowstorm116

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:22 PM

@Furi0n

Can't speak for the interaction between PL and DRW because I haven't tried PL at all, but the AskMrRobot part is simply a matter of stat weights. It's definitely a great site, but you usually have to tinker with it to get more than a basic "tell me exactly what to do" response.

If you click Edit Weights at the top left, you'll see the default weights have 1 point of Stam valued at 1.6 robot points, while 1 point of mastery is worth 1.3. So for the glove enchants, the Sha armor Kit is worth 150x1.6 = 240, while the Mastery enchant is 170x1.3 = 221.
Same goes for the Serpent's Eyes. The choice is between 480 Stam and 480 Mastery, so whichever is weighted higher on MrRobot will win out. To remedy this, try the 'Low' Stamina Button after you click Edit Weights. I have a feeling you don't actually value additional Stamina very much currently with your gear level, legendary cloak, and 2 stam trinkets. This ties in directly to your 3rd question as well.

Raegwynn's response to my last post is the exact answer to your 3rd question as well:
http://elitistjerks....21/#post2333565

#322 Furi0n

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:45 PM

Stat weights are mystery to me and what they should be for a Blood DK. Once I changed stamina's priority to low it changed everything to what I expected it to be. Thanks very much.

#323 Houndsto0th

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:11 AM

Hey @Furi0n,
I didn't start Tanking until Mists, until then I had been a Mage in a very competitive guild (lots of US top 75s) and was used to having concrete stat weights and breakpoints.

The short of it is that the stat weights rely on way too many factors for someone to create a concrete number list. Your mastery can change value based on your total Stamina to an extent and the value of dodge/parry/mastery can change on personal evaluation of your healers in a raid.

My philosophy is that during progression content, if you have solid DPS in the raid, you should be gearing to smooth damage. Making healing you easier means your healers can focus your attention elsewhere to make difficult phases/bursts of damage more manageable and keep dps alive to dps harder.

Based on some Sims that I've run through SimC using my current gearing and balancing roughly 85:15 Damage Reduction : DPS stats I've landed on the following: (these are how I set them in AMR for the optimizer)

Stamina: 1.2
Dodge: 1
Mastery(to 230%): 1
Parry: .95
Haste: .87
Mastery(past 230%): .5

The reason I have Mastery set the way I do is that during my Simulations I found that going past that mastery point was actually detrimental to my TMI (Theck-Meelore Index) rating. I'm guessing it's due to how valuable other stats that were being sacrificed are when rating TMI.

I set dodge and parry that way because it balances for where my gearing is at currently, those will probably change significantly now that I'm seeing more and more heroic gear.

Again, these are very subject to change but so far I've seen a marked improvement in the size and number of spikes I'm taking in Normal/Heroic content compared with previous weeks.

#324 hilltopperpete

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:45 AM

I've recently swapped to accuracy>avoidance>mastery>haste, and the only thing that changed is a sizable dps bump. I'm comparing my WOL parses after swapping to avoidance very closely to those with full mastery. Runic Corruption's average uptime has increased from 20% to about 25%, allowing me to bypass heart strike altogether for extended periods of time. Total damage taken hasn't changed, healing taken hasn't changed and healing done hasn't changed either. My healing has seen a significant shift from blood shield to death strike (from 35/65 DS/BS to 50/50), but because nearly every death strike lands with multiple stacks of scent of blood, my average DS heals are nearly 40% higher than they were in the earlier parses before (compared same fights in flex/normal mastery v. avoidance gear)- which has incredible symbiosis with blood shield, as the shield is calculated based on the heal. Avoidance DOES have limited synergy with mastery.

Avoidance also allows you to hang on to blood shields longer and stack them up higher- if you have a 1M blood shield stacked up when you taunt, the boss doesn't blow through it in 3 melee hits anymore- and during that time you're able to respond and fill the shield up more. I am more regularly seeing my blood shield hanging around 300-400k than I was before I dropped mastery. The scenario that Ragewyn mentioned that a dodge or parry results in a smaller subsequent blood shield is true, but he fails to mention that if you proactively respond to incoming damage just as you would with a mastery build, you will face that next hit with an existing blood shield and still be able to respond to the next hit just like a DK should (again- just swimming in runic power so you). The second death strike will probably be doing more actual healing than simply building up a shield, but I am seeing about a 40% average reduction in BS overheals without a significant change to DS overhealing.

Think of it this way- tanking Horridon, if you stacked up a nice blood shield for triple puncture while sitting on a pair of death runes so you could death strike after getting hit, but decided not to dodge his double swipe, it would eat through your existing shield leaving you more vulnerable to the subsequent triple puncture. Stacking avoidance is a passive version of this- your death strike and blood shield will still be there when you need it to heal up and mitigate the next hit, but you don't need it quite as often. If you can sit on 35% crit without really sacrificing survivability, there's not many reasons to not swap besides wanting to fully multipurpose gear for DW frost dps or stick to the traditional DK rotation.

Use the celestial bosses as your new target dummies to test the setup. They hit hard enough to make you work a bit, but not too hard that you need a healer. I still have a full mastery set with my dps gear, and I feel significantly stronger on them with avoidance. I did 450k dps a couple days ago on Ordos with the crane celestial blessing and some of the little isle buffs. At high vengeance values, the crit and RP generation from riposte and SoB just take off.

#325 Uspoonybard

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

I've been a parry/dodge build for a while now, focusing moreso on parry, and I've noticed huge increases myself. Also I don't think it's been brought up,but we're also getting more SoB procs from parry haste since we're swinging more often. A suggestion for this type of build, if you're looking to improve your dps, is to make a riposte weak aura. Mine basically just tells me to taunt if its not up. Now by doing this you're going to have to pay attention to current mechanics, but on fights like immerseus, sha of pride, nazgrim, and etc its helpful.
I've been following more of what kaotikz @ rexxar doing as far as gearing.

Though since SimC still has not been fixed completely so we're still just shop talking.

#326 Tyvi

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:11 PM

The taunting is definitely a good practice for DPS, especially since you want to do this anyway for Vengeance since you get half of the Vengeance the current tank has when you do this.

The SoB interaction with avoidance has certainly been a pleasent surprise though it is the most obvious when you tank multiple mobs (though I can't help but feel the waste when you easily overcap on RP doing that :V).

I think that if I was wearing tank gear more often, I would go for an hit cap/exp soft cap > mastery (150%) > avoidance > mastery > exp hard cap build myself since it combines both DPS and survival without making many trade offs like a full mastery or full DPS gear build would. I would still consider avoidance to be a bit worse for controlled survival until you hit a given mastery value but the increased DPS gains are not something you would want to miss. Plus avoidance has some delicious interaction with the non-DR avoidance from DRW and SS.

#327 TheScorned

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:57 PM

[Edited for more clarity]

Hi people,

I'm posting to further enquire about Tyvi's and Raegwynn's tips towards enhancing your dps as a tank. I know it's redundant with many former posts but I'm trying to write it down in one post to try and clarify the big picture behing all of this : Do we really need tanking gear ... at all ?!

I've cleaned ToT HM and SoO Normal with full dps gear and that is quite the opposite of all the guides I have found. To me 10 man Blood Tanking revolves soundly around timings, death runes and Cooldowns and we can do that in dps gear all the way. And I think we should start to consider ourselves gearwise the same way that druids and monks do : convert dps gear in tank mecanics.

Sure a healthy amount of EHP and armor is required but once you get to the million health points, it's just not that good of a stat to chase. Dodge and Parry are NOT vital stats to stack. Endurance and Mastery emulates this almost the same. Pure Mastery stacking is redondant, it's just too high of a shield for too long of a time. And I mean this when I say : too good of a tank isn't a good thing when progressing. Most encounters have a short enrage or mecanics that rely on dps (Norushen for example).

As an example, my stat priorities are currently (550ish ilvl) :

Hit/Exp > Haste (cap = 20%) = Mastery (cap around 200%) > Crit (best DPS stats on blood DK) > Parry (I grab it on red gemslots when expertise caped)

Hit/Exp Cap : best DPS stats and quite easy to get with current gear.
Haste : I think we should see haste as "hardcapped" around 20%ish, even I am GCD locked after that and it doesn't provide much in term of dps and tanking after that. But it has been shown that perfect timing, no lag and perfect AMS soaking gives almost a GCD lock with a LOT less Haste.
Mastery : I stack it up to 200-225ish % even though you can do with a LOT less, but it's progress time and I like to max my shield in 2DS on most hard hiting encounters. I see it as a DPS stats in some way because if my shields are big enough I can spend more time on runestrikes/bloodboils and it gives more time for my healers to get me up so I can dps during that window.
Crit : It's the best stats for us once we reach confort zone. It affects all our dps skills and both our dots.
Parry : I get it naturally from red sockets and because Blood DK scales so badly with Attack Power I (personnally) rank it higher than strenght gem-wise. The new Riposte passive is a small benefit.

I find myself quite confortable (even Garrosh on P1 without usage of Stars with 2-3 adds on me all the time and the dude hits like a truck with a bad temper).

After months of thinking I came that many things made it non only possible but almost logical.

1°) Items ! First of all, the Legendary Tank Metagem ! I think it's too good. 20% reduction from all sources proc is insane and because the bosses are scaled upon players with same ilvl but no Legendary Questline items, this allows us to go without a LOT of tanking stats. Our T16 bonuses are actually excellent for once and dps oriented (That DRW is kick arse burst !). Strenght has a very good ratio with parry so we can even go with DPS trinkets without too much second thought. I mean hey even tank trinkets are awesome for DPS (I'm looking at you Thok's Tail Tip and Curse of Hubris). The Legendary Tanking Cloak is rubish in most cases (you can gimmick it but it's too much of a hassle and rarely worth it) while the Dps Cloak is a huge boon to dps (even with the proc nerf), it's almost 7% of my dps on ST and close to 13,5% on 3 targets and more and the stats are awesome !

2°) Bosses don't hit that hard and healers are really strong. Now I know that's more of a personal feeling and an external addition to the whole thing, but we need to see the whole metabalance. When you see how a Restoration Druid can keep a raid full health almost GCD free or the amount of single target healing a Paladin can keep all fight long on you while taking care of dispels and raid healing, it's something you need to keep in mind. I'm able to solo tank Thok on Normal without much issues in full dps gear and he is (after Garrosh) one of the more damaging tank hiter on this tier (in P1 of course).

3°) 10 man tank dps is key in most situations on Heroic Mode 10 man and being able to have a stable 200-230K dps on single target is a huge step towards a down. Almost so much that Guilds would rather give a harder time on their healers than ask for more defensive oriented gear on their tanks (mine does).

4°) Most of our dps doesn't require many Death Runes usage (If you don't go the Death Siphon route). With 20% Haste, i'm almost GCD locked with 80% HS/RS/BB procs/D&D and timely used DS, so i can use mainly Blood Runes and Runic Power and have 4 Death Runes sitting for a few seconds if I know something big is coming. And on top of that all our DPS CDs have flash modified stats according to ours so we can even use our Army and Ghoul as much as possible as a defensive/offensive cooldown that scales dynamicaly with our vengeance (that sometimes goes sky high, I have exemples of 350-400K vengeance for whole minutes).

5°) We have so many defensive CDs it's ridiculous. AMS timing has never been so rewarding, most encounters run a 2-3 minute gaps between burst phases (Malkorok is 2m50 but hey just ask for a Pain Sup/Sacrifice) so we always have something up, we have a 60% self heal on a 2 minute cd and IBF glyphed is OP on most fights.

I find it harder and harder to guide people towards gearing with tank pieces and it's not some emulation of Tankadins (even though I outdps ours ...). I think that you lose a tiny bit of tanking stats and gain a massive dps. It simply outweights everything else if you think about it in a raid-centric fashion.

Now I really don't consider myself as a professional tank/player. I play my DK a lot, true, and I have great faith in my healers but we play casually and care-free and still get things done that way. So if even a player like me can run with those stat weights I think most players that care to read this awesome site would be able to also !

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the DK Blood guide is misleading or have a bad approach, just that I think that DPS geared tanking is something that people start doing a lot and that needs refining.

#328 hilltopperpete

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:38 PM

This just in.

I knew Death Coil hit very hard at high levels of vengeance with the crazy Lichborne spamming, but with DRW RP cost and DK's generally awful runic power generation/rune cycling, it hadn't been worth using as a DPS skill. No longer.

With lots of vengeance the gobs and gobs of Runic Power from SoB avoidance procs (when tanking the boss and especially when tanking multiple mobs) and the Regenerative Magic Glyph, Blood Death Knights can use Death Coil for a not insignificant DPS increase.

Parses from Otou of Midnight Sanctuary, Protectors 25H and Juggernaut 25H.
Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs
Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs


[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.

#329 Cryopathy

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:35 AM

This just in.

I knew Death Coil hit very hard at high levels of vengeance with the crazy Lichborne spamming, but with DRW RP cost and DK's generally awful runic power generation/rune cycling, it hadn't been worth using as a DPS skill. No longer.

With lots of vengeance the gobs and gobs of Runic Power from SoB avoidance procs (when tanking the boss and especially when tanking multiple mobs) and the Regenerative Magic Glyph, Blood Death Knights can use Death Coil for a not insignificant DPS increase.

Parses from Otou of Midnight Sanctuary, Protectors 25H and Juggernaut 25H.
Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs
Details for Otou - 08-10 22:58 - Lifeo's logs - World of Logs


[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.


You're comparing Damage per Execute when the more relevant comparison is Damage per Runic Power. Death Coil costs 40 RP, whereas Rune Strike costs 30 RP. Using Death Coil is a survivability loss in all cases (due to fewer rune regeneration talent procs) and is less DPRP compared to Rune Strike except at massive AP levels (around 500k AP with a 561 weapon).

#330 Tyvi

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:51 AM

[Edit]I ran two 400s single-target Patchwerk sims, one with the traditional rotation and one simply replacing Rune Strike with Death Coil. The sim set vengeance at an average of about 150k, and the damage of the RP dumps was very similar, about 130k RS average versus about 125k DC. The overall damage was about 5% lower (226k v. 215k), primarily because of the fewer rune cycles, but it's encouraging to see DC scaling so well with moderate vengeance. For multiple mobs, more vengeance, and more targeted AMS usage, it's not hard to see DC weaving providing added damage, especially in 25m and HC raiding.


This isn't exactly new (I believe we had a discussion about DC vs RS DPET some time ago) and it was a good idea to weave in DCs for damage before Rune Strike got buffed. But anyway, I just wanted to post the formula for people to see at which AP levels DC does the same damage as Rune Strike on average:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15)

Gives us a breakpoint at 220k AP. Replace 29475 with whatever your average damage from your weapon is if you don't have a 561 wep.

Here it is as link:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) - Wolfram|Alpha

Obviously, the better your weapon, the higher the break point will be. If you have DRW up and are swimming in RP, the value drops again (I don't have an exact formula for that, I just eyeball it) since DRW bugged out some time ago and is not copying our weapon damage but still copies spells 1:1.

#331 snowstorm116

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:27 PM

I've heard that players still benefit from Parry haste. With the Riposte/Avoidance build becoming more popular, if one were to prioritize for Avoidance, is a balanced amount of Dodge/Parry according to the macro in the OP best? Or would stacking Parry to benefit from Parry Haste more be better?

The two examples I've seen:

Parry >> Dodge
Kaotikz @ Rexxar - Community - World of Warcraft

Parry = Dodge
Otou @ Stormrage - Community - World of Warcraft

#332 Uspoonybard

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:51 PM

I've heard that players still benefit from Parry haste. With the Riposte/Avoidance build becoming more popular, if one were to prioritize for Avoidance, is a balanced amount of Dodge/Parry according to the macro in the OP best? Or would stacking Parry to benefit from Parry Haste more be better?

The two examples I've seen:

Parry >> Dodge
Kaotikz @ Rexxar - Community - World of Warcraft

Parry = Dodge
Otou @ Stormrage - Community - World of Warcraft


In analysis like this you've also got to realize they're both tanking two different type of content so their gearing styles are going to be different. 10mans I've seen going more towards full parry, whereas 25s are doing a balance. Reason being balance overall would account for less damage taken overall. Just make sure that you're seeing what content people are raiding when comparing to what would be better for dps.

#333 snowstorm116

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:03 AM

That is a good point I hadn't thought about, but I think I worded my post wrong. I was mainly concerned strictly about DPS: would the additional scent of blood procs from a balanced build (assuming you now have a higher overall chance to avoid) cause a larger DPS increase than the gained melee swings/SoB procs from Parry Haste?

#334 Charybdis

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:46 PM

Based on the math done at Tankspot, one can see that every parry is another .24 of an auto-attack due to parry haste. Since both avoids and auto-attacks have a 100% chance to proc SoB assuming a 3.6 speed melee weapon because SoB is a PPM effect to combat people trying to DW tank with faster stuff, that means each point of parry is 1.24 times as good at generating SoB procs as a point in dodge, discounting the diminishing returns of course.

I believe that means that to get the ideal ratio between parry and dodge for SoB purposes you'd need to modify the usual macro or equation that would normally just show the ideal ratio between parry and dodge for maximum avoidance. Exactly how that's done is something I've shot Theck a PM about and will edit in to this post once I receive a reply unless someone else beats me to the punch.

Assuming the parry:dodge ratio is raised to account for more SoB procs, one might then want to compare the damage gained from more RP and auto-attacks with the higher parry versus the likely increased uptime of Riposte if one were to ignore SoB and simply focus on getting the most avoidance out of the least rating. That question isn't so easily answered with pure math and simulations, but my gut would say that going for more parry to get more SoB procs would probably be better if indeed there is a significant difference at all.

On another note, something I've noticed while browsing through WoL logs is they will tend to show Scent of Blood procs in the Buffs section will be lower than one would expect based on the RP gained in the Power Gains section. As best I can tell this is due to SoB actually having two buffs: One which boosts the next Death Strike, and one which grants the RP. The one that buffs DS is shown in the Buffs section, which means that if you're sitting on 5 stacks and you get another SoB proc then it won't show up there since you're capped but the RP gains will still show up normally.

Edit: So much for an easy way to figure out the best SoB setup. Theck mentioned that would require adding up the SoB procs from both auto-attacks and avoids and then taking the derivative of that sum to get the final ratio. Avoids aren't so hard since they're just based on the enemy's swing rate and your avoidance. Auto-attacks, however, are complicated by parry haste which is based on our parry and the boss's swing plus our own weapon's swing timer. At least boss parry haste is no longer a problem.

However, the interaction between parry and more hits is strong enough (each parry is an extra .24 of a swing after all) that the minimal avoidance lost by not using the ideal parry:dodge ratio is probably not going to be noticed compared to the extra SoB and attacks gained from more dodge. In short, parry>dodge.

#335 Qaajn

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:18 AM

This isn't exactly new (I believe we had a discussion about DC vs RS DPET some time ago) and it was a good idea to weave in DCs for damage before Rune Strike got buffed. But anyway, I just wanted to post the formula for people to see at which AP levels DC does the same damage as Rune Strike on average:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15)

Gives us a breakpoint at 220k AP. Replace 29475 with whatever your average damage from your weapon is if you don't have a 561 wep.

Here it is as link:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) - Wolfram|Alpha

Obviously, the better your weapon, the higher the break point will be. If you have DRW up and are swimming in RP, the value drops again (I don't have an exact formula for that, I just eyeball it) since DRW bugged out some time ago and is not copying our weapon damage but still copies spells 1:1.


Assuming that I understood you correctly, and DRW give DC full benefit, while RS gets nothing from weapon damage, the new formula should be:

((0.514*x + 1133) * 1.05 * 1.10) * 2 = (((((x/14) * 3.3 + 29475 * 0.5) * 2) * 0.68 * 1.04 * 1.15) * 2 - Wolfram|Alpha

Which give a breakpoint at 108k AP. That should put it as the optimal use of RP when tanking multiple mobs, as you often cannot spent it fast enough, and you would pretty much always have more then 108k AP.

#336 jacapo

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:58 PM

Is it really better to stack haste? I have seen a lot of blood dk's with nothing but haste gems.



#337 Furi0n

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:05 PM

Adding on to my previous question about PL, could anyone tell me is it a DPS increase to use the Glyph Of Outbreak in conjunction with PL? Or is it not worth the GCD of using PL and Outbreak every 30 seconds?


Edited by Furi0n, 03 November 2013 - 03:06 PM.


#338 Tyvi

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:40 PM

Full haste gearing is not a good idea if you aim to do max DPS. With Scent of Blood, AMS soaking and a pretty low RP cost on Rune Strike the amount of haste we need to be GCD capped is pretty small (there are moments I wish Death Coil was better damage than Rune Strike at all AP levels just so I could bleed off the excess RP). With that in mind, crit gemming is better for DPS, especially for AoE where your diseases are allowed to tick for a while since haste does nothing there.

(Personally, I also consider parry and dodge to be superior to haste because I just have too much of it and can't get rid of it.)

 

As for why people gem haste, my suspicion is that they are doing it for combination of survival/DPS. It's neither the best for either survival or DPS but it is a good middle ground I suppose.

 

Same applies to PL: Generally no GCDs free so I don't see the need to spec it but if I had to use it, I would probably glyph Outbreak due to how easy it is get to the point where RP is really nothing you need to worry about it.



#339 Uspoonybard

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:06 PM

Make sure to look at the spreadsheet thread to increase dps even further. A lot of the dps things can be applied to us and I posted a couple of tips in there for blood as well.

Here's a direct link: http://forums.elitis...heet/?p=2269540

#340 Uspoonybard

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 09:24 PM

I believe that using the cleave trinket on fights where there are multiple mobs is definitely an increase (Immerseus/Protectors). I don't see a lot of people using it so I thought I'd add it in here. 

 

http://worldoflogs.c...s/16/?s=0&e=358

Here does 11.5% of my damage which is definitely a huge increase. 

http://www.worldoflo.../?s=9488&e=9887

Here 11.4%

http://www.worldoflo...0/?s=374&e=1080

Here 5.8%

http://worldoflogs.c.../?s=2502&e=3023

And here 4.2%

 

Even in the smallest instance it is still a pretty decent dps increase. Of course you lose survivability, but at higher gear levels you can definitely drop whatever trinket you were using for these earlier fights. 






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