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[MoP] Marksmanship Guide


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#41 Whitefyst

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:00 AM

Looks like another buff for MMs:

•Aimed Shot damage +10%.
•Chimera Shot damage +50%.
•Steady Shot damage +20%.

I will try to do some analysis this weekend or next before the patch comes out, but I have been busy and may not be able to complete it before the patch. Definitely increases to 3 of the 4 primary shots for a MM is great, especially the large buff to CS.

Using the T13 MM Max DPS profile in FD with no changes, Zeherah's initial implementation yielded a 7.5% increase. This may change some after she determines the actual performance. Some reforges and other alterations may yeild better results too. The criteria concerning at what haste level to use AI should improve some more. With the T14 gear, it was close to being better not to stack BL and RF anymore where it may become the right choice with T15 gear scaling.

#42 TheRazorsEdge

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:15 AM

•Aimed Shot damage +10%.
•Chimera Shot damage +50%.
•Steady Shot damage +20%.

I will try to do some analysis this weekend or next before the patch comes out, but I have been busy and may not be able to complete it before the patch. Definitely increases to 3 of the 4 primary shots for a MM is great, especially the large buff to CS.


Looks like they toned it down a bit. Chimera Shot is only getting +25%. Source: GC post

#43 Deltisam

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:35 AM

I had a quick question about spamming SS and ignoring a focus dump completely. Is there any crit level where the bonus damage of piercing shots from all the extra SSs and AI procs would make up for the loss of AS?

#44 Whitefyst

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:35 AM

I had a quick question about spamming SS and ignoring a focus dump completely. Is there any crit level where the bonus damage of piercing shots from all the extra SSs and AI procs would make up for the loss of AS?


Definitely not currently with how poor AI's and SS's damage is relative to AS as compared to the Cata days when this option was still not a viable choice. I will need to reevaluate the situation with the final shot changes for the patch, but the answer should still be definitely no.

The detailed guide discussed this option in 8.4.3 Steady Shot Spamming vs. Arcane Shot outside the CA Phase. The main reasons that this does not work out better is that SS and AI just do not do enough damage in this scenario. MMM AI procs require 5 SSs on average to get the 3 stacks. Assuming that everything else is identical where you do the same number of other shots (CS, GT, DB, etc) and with the existing SSs and MMM AIs remaining so that we can focus on just the SSs and AIs that replace the ASs and with assuming that SS cast time is 1s, that is comparing 5 SSs and 1 AI versus 6 ASs. Even with including the PS effect on AI and SS and the PTR buffs to those shots in T14H gear that is:

5 * 26485 + 131490 vs. 6 * 47700
263920 < 286200

So even in this ideal case, using AS wins. But reallity is even more in favor of using AS due to:

1) It requires a lot of haste to get SS to a 1s cast time, and in that scenario your AI cast time is < 1.3s such that you would be wanting to hardcast AI as your focus dump in that situation instead of spamming SS.

2) With normal haste levels like the 12.93% recommended, your SS cast time is really 1.4s not 1s. Thus, you can only get about 3.57 SSs for the 5 ASs not including the one replaced by the AI. This makes the comparison the following which is not even close.

3.57 * 26485 + 131490 vs. 6 * 47700
226040 < 286200

Of course adding more haste improves the situation but as shown in the original comparison, you can never have enough haste to make it worthwhile. Plus, getting that additional haste costs other stats that lower your shot average damage.

3) Unless you have a fully hasted SS, you also lose WQ damage. In the comparison in 2), you take 1.43 less shots per replacement set in the SS spam case. That costs an additional 13560 damage.

If SS spamming was indeed a DPS improvement, then my opinion would be that Blizzard failed at designing the MM shot priority/rotation since they clearly intended for MMs to use AS for much of the fight as the focus dump.

#45 Lokrick

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:47 PM

... MMM AI procs require 5 SSs on average to get the 3 stacks. Assuming that everything else is identical where you do the same number of other shots (CS, GT, DB, etc) and with the existing SSs and MMM AIs remaining so that we can focus on just the SSs and AIs that replace the ASs and with assuming that SS cast time is 1s, that is comparing 5 SSs and 1 AI versus 6 ASs. Even with including the PS effect on AI and SS and the PTR buffs to those shots in T14H gear that is:

5 * 26485 + 131490 vs. 6 * 47700
263920 < 286200
...
2) With normal haste levels like the 12.93% recommended, your SS cast time is really 1.4s not 1s. Thus, you can only get about 3.57 SSs for the 5 ASs not including the one replaced by the AI. This makes the comparison the following which is not even close.
...
If SS spamming was indeed a DPS improvement, then my opinion would be that Blizzard failed at designing the MM shot priority/rotation since they clearly intended for MMs to use AS for much of the fight as the focus dump.


There is a special case which is worth looking at, which falls in the realm of "experts could benefit from this": when you cast a steady shot pair, 25% of the time they will both proc master marksman. Starting from there, is it worth fishing for MMM procs? (i.e., the first two SS were a sunk cost). To get a feel for the technique, I compare the damage of different shot sequences over 6 seconds based on your damage numbers above, where the last chunk is the fraction of an AS that would fit in the remaining time.

a. 1xSS MMM AS... 329,695
b. 2xSS MMM AS... 289,400
c. 3xSS MMM AS... 249,105
d. 4xSS AS... 125,020
e. AS... 286,200

The last case is for "MMM never procced". Since there's only a 50% chance of a proc per SS, fishing for a proc is the expected value of getting it immediately, plus the expected value of failing to get it. That series over 6 seconds is:

.5a + .5(.5b + .5(.5c + .5d))) = 283,963

which is less than just spamming AS (283k < 286k). However for example, a 1.3 cast time for is SS or a 1.1 cast time for AS (e.g., due to latency) results in fishing for that last proc being an improvement. The most variant at the moment is one that can actually be applied fairly easily:

f. SS AS... 245,905

Basically fish for one proc, using the sequence SS AS MMM? AS... where the MMM is only if the proc happened. That nets 287,800, which beats AS spam with a fairly simply shot decision.

This doesn't include wild quiver impacts. More importantly, this doesn't include the fact that the master marksman procs will last until the next SS pair, so they would likely not be otherwise be wasted. However, this sequence could squeeze in a little more damage in a burst phase.

#46 Whitefyst

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:05 AM

There is a special case which is worth looking at, which falls in the realm of "experts could benefit from this": when you cast a steady shot pair, 25% of the time they will both proc master marksman. Starting from there, is it worth fishing for MMM procs? (i.e., the first two SS were a sunk cost). To get a feel for the technique, I compare the damage of different shot sequences over 6 seconds based on your damage numbers above, where the last chunk is the fraction of an AS that would fit in the remaining time.

[...]

The most variant at the moment is one that can actually be applied fairly easily:

f. SS AS... 245,905

Basically fish for one proc, using the sequence SS AS MMM? AS... where the MMM is only if the proc happened. That nets 287,800, which beats AS spam with a fairly simply shot decision.


Yes, very good points, which I will need to ponder on some more. Here are my thoughts as I do so:
Spoiler

Summary

Although it may be possible that in a very small set of situations that MMM AI fishing may provide a small DPS benefit (and I am not certain that it really ever can be a DPS benefit), I do not think that the small potential DPS benefit is worth bothering with it due to the small percentage of CS cycles on which it can potentially be a benefit (that reduces the possible DPS benefit per average CS cycle), the required monitoring to know when to perform the fishing properly, and the fact that normal CS cycles will usually provide the same net benefit anway without the potential risk of overcapping focus and resultant DPS loss due to not implementing the fishing ideally. Some god-like hunters with incredibly high situational awareness and great decision making may be able to eek out a tiny fraction more DPS, but I do not think that most mortal hunters would benefit from trying this and would realistically probably hurt their DPS instead of increasing it.

There is very little (if any) "bang for the buck" here where it is not worthwhile further complicating the MM priority rules for it.

#47 Anmarie

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:40 PM

While at the subject... Is it worth of switching to t15 in favor of better primary stats, or will 4t14 still be viable haste-wise? Lame question, agreed, but t15 bonuses overall don't seem to favor MM much.

#48 wilegenuis

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:29 PM

While at the subject... Is it worth of switching to t15 in favor of better primary stats, or will 4t14 still be viable haste-wise? Lame question, agreed, but t15 bonuses overall don't seem to favor MM much.

FD shows the data clearly. T14 2pcs bonus is around 1.5K DPS, T14 4pcs bonus is around 1.7K DPS. Replacing a iLvl 496 tier item with iLvl 522 item is an extra of around 300 agility and 500 secondary stat that can be as high as 1.7K DPS.
Therefore I would not replace my T14 4pcs bonus for a LFR version of the new loot and as I like the extra haste I would not replace it for a single pcs of a iLvl 522 item. For 2 pcs of iLvl 522 items, the return of agility clearly is better (even if the T14 level tier item was upgraded already).

#49 Whitefyst

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:40 AM

Well, I was hoping that I had another week since work has been busy, but it looks like they are dropping 5.2 tomorrow. I will try to update the quick guide as soon as I can. It will probably be a week or two until the detailed guide is done since I like to wait to see what the actual changes are before I update any of the calculations and analysis. I also need a good gearing list (preferrably in FD) too.

Here are the changes that affect MM PVE for 5.2 and comments for each:

General
•Area Damage Cap: The area damage cap is now 20 targets (was 10). This means area of effect damage spells now reach their maximum damage when striking 20 targets. If more than 20 targets are struck, then the total damage done is spread evenly over the actual number of targets present.

Not a big play style upgrade since we still targeted the largest pack usually to max AoE. Obviously, the big impact is that with Explosive Trap, Multishot, and possibly Glaive Toss and Powershot hitting more targets that we get a boost to AoE DPS when there is more than 10 targets.


Hunter
•Targeting for Glaive Toss and Powershot has been improved. These abilities will now always hit the primary target and are much more responsive about which secondary targets they hit.

GT and PS will now generally provide more damage and be more reliable in the damage down to that expected. Nice improvement. Need to see reanalysis on best level 90 talent but assuming GT still until determine otherwise.


•Dismiss Pet now has a cast time of 3 seconds (was 2 seconds).

Do not understand why they made this change beyond to make the cost of pet swapping in combat a little more expensive. If you were not pet swapping before, the change has no PVE impacts.


•Steady Shot now deals 20% more damage. Steady Shot weapon damage increased by 20% and additional damage increased by 44%.

Nice DPS boost for MM. This increase does not affect MM priorities and shot selection at all. It still is not worth spamming SS for MMM AI procs instead of using AS.


•Silencing Shot now has a 24-second cooldown (was 20 seconds).
•Binding Shot no longer has a Focus cost. Binding Shot no longer costs 20 Focus.
•Wyvern Sting no longer has a Focus cost, and its cooldown is now 45 seconds (was 60 seconds).

Utility shot updates that we use rarely on boss fights. Binding Shot costing no focus is a nice change, especially on fights like Will of the Emperor where it is useful to use to control adds.


•Glyph of Marked For Death has been removed and its effects are now baseline. Arcane Shot and Chimera Shot automatically apply Hunter's Mark.

Nice change. This frees up a glyph spot. I recommend Glyph of Aimed shot so that we can cast AI while moving. This will become more useful as the number of AIs we cast per fight increases. Other options in addition to the two already recommended in the guide are Glyph of Chimera Shot and the new Glyph of Liberation, both of which increase MM self-heals. With how much self-healing/damage reduction that MMs have already with the improved CS healing and the current glyphs, the AI glyph is my recommendation.


•New Glyph: Glyph of Liberation. This glyph now causes Disengage to heal the Hunter for 5% of maximum health when used.

•Aimed Shot cast time has been reduced to 2.5 seconds (was 2.9 seconds).
•Aimed Show now deals 10% more damage.

In addition to increasing MM DPS, this change also affects MM priorities as I have discussed some in previous posts. The reduction in AI cast time and the increase in AI DPS increases the number of situations in which MMs should hardcast AI. I do not have an exact cutoff point since my previous analysis did not include the 10% damage boost or account for T15 gear scaling since the gear was not available yet. Until I can do such analysis, the cutoff point should raise a little and easily be 1.4s AI cast time or a little above. In what situations you achieve this depends on whether you still have the T14 4P or not. With the T14 4P, I now definitely recommend hardcasting AI during BL and RF affects. Without the T14 4P and with at least the recommended 9.09% haste from gear, I still recommend hardcasting AI during RF and also I believe during BL but still need to confirm. Hence, MM focus dump decisions should be back to the Cata days before we got overgeared and could stack enough haste to possibly use AI all the time. Use AS as the focus dump when outside the CA phase and unhasted (or under small trinket effects) and use AI when under large dynamic haste effects.

Note that due to the benefits to Stampede that it still works out best DPS-wise to stack BL and RF on top of each other to maximize Stampede and CA phase DPS. However, now BLs cast per guild strat outside the CA phase are much more beneficial to MMs than they were.


•Chimera Shot now deals 25% more damage and heals the Hunter for 5% (was 3%) of their total health.

Nice DPS improvement and self-heal improvement. This increase in CS damage still makes it that you want to use CS during the CA phase despite the buffs to AI damage and cast time.


•Item - Hunter T15 2P Bonus (New) Your Steady Shot and Cobra Shot have a chance to summon a Thunderhawk to fight for you for the next 10 sec.

When I did the SS spamming analysis, I did not include in the T15 2P bonus. I need to evaluate how much it increases SS average damage and whether there is much benefit to casting more SSs. Does anyone have the data for proc chance, duration, and average damage for the Thunderhawk?


•Item - Hunter T15 4P Bonus (New) Your Arcane Shot, Multi-shot, and Aimed Shot have a chance to trigger a Lightning Arrow at the target, dealing 100% weapon damage as Nature.

Nice benefit to all 3 of our focus dumps. I need to analyze how this damage affects the SS spamming option since increased average AS damage due to LA lowers the possible benefit while the increased damage for MMM AIs increases it. Anyone know the proc information for LA?


•Ancient Zandalari Knowledge (New) Learn the ancient Zandalari secrets of taming Direhorns. Instant. Taught by Ancient Tome of Dinomancy.

Yeah new pet to tame. Too bad no room in my stable. What buffs does a Direhorn apply?


•Serpent Sting damage and AP scaling doubled.
•Aspect of the Hawk now increases ranged attack power by 15%, up from 10%.

Tool tip changes only to match current game capability.


•Focused Aim now reduces pushback by 10%, down from 70%.

I am not looking forward to this change, especially with AI now becoming a more frequent focus dump option. We will have to be more careful casting AI during possible pushback situations and will probably need to revert back to using AS in those cases despite large dynamic haste effects since the pushback basically undoes all or part of that benefit.


•Stampede now has 40 yd range, up from 30.

Quality of life change. No longer have to move in closer to cast Stampede in those situations where I try to distance myself from the melee group, especially if bad things like Wind Bombs are between me and getting in range to cast Stampede.


•Powershot cannot hit moving targets between you and the primary target.

Never used PS so have no clue on the impacts of the change. Plus, I believe that this change was made for PvP.



#50 fearin

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

•Ancient Zandalari Knowledge (New) Learn the ancient Zandalari secrets of taming Direhorns. Instant. Taught by Ancient Tome of Dinomancy.

Yeah new pet to tame. Too bad no room in my stable. What buffs does a Direhorn apply?


I found this information:

Second is the Direhorn — basically a totally awesome triceretops. It’s a new pet family, tenacity by default, with the Reflective Armor Plating ability to reflect spells in front of it for 6 seconds.


source: Patch 5.2 Hunter Changes Guide | Warcraft Hunters Union

Probably OP in PvP but little to no use in PvE.

#51 Scrimjaw

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:52 PM

is there a 5.4 guide coming out? would be very nice

#52 wilegenuis

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:37 AM

Based on FD simulations, the T16 4pcs set bonus is useless or negligible for MM hunters. What the T16 4pcs do for MM is "Instant Aimed shots reduce the cast time of your next Aimed Shot by 50%". However if the effect of reduce the cast time of your next Aimed cause it to be less than the GCD (1s), than the effect disappears.
When AS is the main focus dump (outside of CA phase, without RF buff), the cast time of instance AIS is 1.037s (1s GCD + 0.036 Latency), FD does not bother to cast the 50% duration AIS as it is less than the GCD. If you "force" FD to cast it, the cast time of the 50% duration AIS is 0.801s which means 0.19s are wasted as it is under the 1s GCD, the extra effect of the T16 4pcs is 517 DPS for the entire fight (0.002%) which will never be felt.
When AIS is the main focus dump (outside of CA phase, without RF buff), the cast time of non-instance AIS is 1.6s , again the cast time of the 50% duration AIS is 0.801s which means 0.19s are wasted as it is under the 1s GCD. In this case the T16 4pcs set bonus is a bit higher.
Things get more complex when you get the Assurance of Consequence trinket with the T16 2pcs proc. This combo cause you to have the RF for 1/3 of the duration of the fight (outside of CA phase). During RF the case time of non-instance AIS is 1.144s, after reducing it by 50% you get 0.572s cast time which means you throw 0.428s to the GCD dump. Making the T16 4pcs set bonus more negligible.
Until Bliz will buff the MM T16 4pcs (never!) I suggest replacing the T16 4pcs with better non-tier items, only case when you should consider using it is if you use AIS as the main focus dump and you don't have the BIS Assurance of Consequence trinket




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