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[Resto] It's Raining Heals 5.4


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#21 Therya

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:40 PM

When it comes to 25 man raiding at least.Neither HS or GHW are dominant heals... so neither of these numbers are of great concern to me.
I find chain heal to be a superior option under almost all other situations.
And feel free to lightning bolt plenty in a fight.


While saying that GHW and HS are not dominant heals in 25man is valid, I have to disagree with that we need to overlook their value and contribution in healing to the point that we shouldn't even be bothered with doing math for them. This whole concern was raised due to the fact that the bonus of our tier 14 2pc which seems to be rather underwhelming. The point of this thread is to theorycraft Resto Shamans for both 25man and 10man, it would be unreasonable therefore to overlook any spells and avoid calculating their value nomatter how much they are used in any situation.


Results more often than not end up surprising us, so I would love to see a chart of RT-HS-HS vs CH-CH-CH , I think it would be very interesting to compare their HPM and HPS .I will put it in my todo list for the week to come.


This is another chart I would love to see, a comparison in LB's mana return to casting Rt-HW-HW-HW maybe. Resurgence percentage returns have gone up from Cataclysm, for example Cata HW = 115% vs MoP HW = 148%.

#22 Judgejoebrwn

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:42 AM

When it comes to 25 man raiding at least.... ( I can't really speak for 10mans ) .... neither HS or GHW are dominant heals... so neither of these numbers are of great concern to me.


I'm sure that's true, but the information is still valid and interesting. I'm pretty sure every shaman knows Healing Rain/Riptide/Totems will account for the vast majority of your heals, and therefore are uninteresting and leave nothing to really big figured out. If there's something you would like to know that we could help you figure out, by all means fill us in.

If your gear is such that you're capable of hitting 20% crit at the moment, I'd sugest you'll find more benefit from trying harder to optimize for Haste to reach that 20.01% haste break point.


Nobody is capable of hitting 20% crit in 463ish iLvl unless they're not reforging out of it, which they should be. It was simply a figure Theyra used and I matched in my spreadsheet. 15% is perfectly reasonable, even after aiming for that haste breakpoint.

#23 Avsek

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:59 PM

One trinket is missed from the list of trinkets, which seem worth to be mentioned.
Jade Courtesan Figurine - Item - World of Warcraft
Dropped by trash mobs before Elegon.

Static int bonus: 1157
On use spirit: 3595 (15 sec long with 1 minute cd) ~ 500 mp5
Please note that wowhead stats are wrong. Spirit boost is 3595, not 2822 as listed on wowhead. It dropped for me today and I checked that the actual spirit boost is 3595. In-game tool tip is correct.

Its stats seem to match stats of Scroll of Revered Ancestors - Item - World of Warcraft (again the value of spirit on wowhead is wrong)

#24 Therya

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

Added in trinkets section however, as stated both its MP5 and Intellect don't live up to the expectations of an epic trinket. seems to be a better choice , given the fact that it scales with our MTT. Also note that its actual Int is 1079 not 1157, spirit is correct.

#25 keith7766

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

Perhaps should be added to the glyphs section as an option for use in conjunction with Primal Elementalist, changing it into essentially a 3-minute CD, 36-sec duration, 10% increase to healing.

Of course, the Earth Elemental isn't affected by this glyph, so you still have your 5-minute CD, 1-minute duration, 10% increase to healing as well.

#26 Therya

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:37 PM

Depending on the length of the fight and the usage you can get out of your Fire Elemental we need to look at uptime to judge whether is viable or not since we get a 10% increase in healing for as long as our Elemental is up.

In a 7min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 120sec uptime. With the glyph uptime drops to 108sec meaning we will be losing 10% of the elementals uptime and 1% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will reduce the Elementals bonus healing to 9%.

In a 10min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get again 120sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime raises to 144 sec meaning we will be gaining roughly 16.67% of the elementals uptime and also gaining 1.667% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will increase the Elementals bonus healing to 11.667%.

In a 15min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 180sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime is exactly 180sec also making this time frame more appropriate for selecting the glyph given the fact it will allow the shaman to synergize his Fire Elemental with his HTT.

It seems in a short fight the glyph will resort in a healing throuput loss of our elementals bonus healing and in a longer fight it will result in a gain. However these are only 2 examples and the CDs are used at the start of the fight. To further compare how efficient the glyph is or not we would have to break down every fight and look at exactly what points we are using our fire elemental. Note that the glyph also provides with the advantage of being used more often, meaning in phases were healing raid cooldowns are needed and as such although the elementals uptime is less it results to less overhealing.

#27 Kurisu

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:24 PM

Uptime concerns aside the largest benefit to using Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem is actually improving raid AE healing capabilities that we have, currently I'd say on average it's giving us about 3kish worth of spell power (before spell power buffs) during Healing Tide alone so it's effectiveness with Healing Rain and Tide together is a strong relationship.

They match cooldowns at that point and on certain encounters this extra bit of pulse AE healing can be really substantial during progression no matter the shaman Specialization. This something.

Essentially you want to treat it like you would most glyphs/talents, it's a situational add that benefits you on an encounter/class comp basis. If your raid lacks heavy AE healing needed for certain encounters it will have great returns for you as needed, especially if you are semi-DPSing. This isn't going to be a clear cut decision.

#28 Judgejoebrwn

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:50 AM

Depending on the length of the fight and the usage you can get out of your Fire Elemental we need to look at uptime to judge whether is viable or not since we get a 10% increase in healing for as long as our Elemental is up.

In a 6min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 120sec uptime. With the glyph uptime drops to 108sec meaning we will be losing 10% of the elementals uptime and 1% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will reduce the Elementals bonus healing to 9%.

In a 10min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get again 120sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime raises to 144 sec meaning we will be gaining roughly 16.67% of the elementals uptime and also gaining 1.667% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will increase the Elementals bonus healing to 11.667%.

It seems in a short fight the glyph will resort in a healing throuput loss of our elementals bonus healing and in a longer fight it will result in a gain. However these are only 2 examples and the CDs are used at the start of the fight. To further compare how efficient the glyph is or not we would have to break down every fight and look at exactly what points we are using our fire elemental. Note that the glyph also provides with the advantage of being used more often, meaning in phases were healing raid cooldowns are needed and as such although the elementals uptime is less it results to less overhealing.


Not sure I follow the uptime figures given here. With 5-min CD's on both (Unglyphed), wouldn't a 180-second uptime be more accurate given a 6min fight assuming an elemental was always dropped when available (first two minutes, then the final minute)? With the glyph, you would ideally use the Earth Elemental first, followed by the Fire Elemental. This would allow a second use of both within the 6-minute time frame, equating to a total uptime of 192 seconds.

In the 10min fight, you would get a total uptime of 240 seconds unglyphed, yet 264 seconds with the glyph (2 Earths, 4 Fires).

This is, of course, assuming you're using them on CD, which may not always be the best option. However, the more frequent use, as you said, may allow it to be more readily available when needed. The 3-minute CD for the Fire Elemental would also sync well with Healing Tide (which Kurisu was mentioning).

#29 Therya

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:00 AM

The only applies to the Fire Elemental so I am not counting Earth Elementals uptime in my calculations. In a 6 min fight by dropping the unglyphed Fire Elemental in 0min mark and 5min mark then you get ideally ( although that might not be the best for throughput) 120sec uptime.

#30 Judgejoebrwn

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:38 AM

The only applies to the Fire Elemental so I am not counting Earth Elementals uptime in my calculations. In a 6 min fight by dropping the unglyphed Fire Elemental in 0min mark and 5min mark then you get ideally ( although that might not be the best for throughput) 120sec uptime.


Makes sense, but you wouldn't get 108 second uptime at 6-minutes with the glyph. You would just be able to cast the 3rd Fire Ele at the 6-min mark, so a 7-minute fight would yield the 108-second uptime.

#31 BigNeptune

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:29 AM

Just curious for anyone else who is doing Heroic Gara'jal, I am very unsure of how the Spirit Realm buff works in correlation to our healing. Our Monk when he enters can manage to boost our DPS up to about 24% and I can only manage about 16% using a conjunction of Tidal Waves/Healing Surge and Ascendance on occasion whilst trying a Glyphed and Unglyphed Riptide on all three of us. Is the amount of damage boosts they gain from total amount of healing or how big of a heal you are hitting them last with?

I am unsure without CD's if I can pump out any higher heals on them.

#32 Therya

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:14 AM

Is the amount of damage boosts they gain from total amount of healing or how big of a heal you are hitting them last with?


At Spiritual Innervation we can find exactly what buff each class gains. If the fight is designed with the assumption that the healers will enter the spirit world at least once thus regenerating their mana pool then spirit is greatly devalued for this specific fight.
There are 4 possibilities, that i can see regarding the mechanic around how DPS gain their buff stacks.
1. DPS gains more stacks the more powerful the healing spells hit them. If this is the case then we will need to run with a low spirit / high throughput spec to sustain high HPS.
2. DPS gains more stacks the more spells are applied to them numerically. This suggests that regardless how efficient your spells are what matters is how many you can throw before you need to leave the spirit world. High haste/crit spec would benefit more.
3. DPS gains more stacks the bigger the next heal is on your target while the smaller the heal will increase its duration. So theoretically you need to alternate ( or let crit decide that for you ) the intensity of your heals between smaller and bigger one. This would work well with any spec.
4. DPS gains stacks numerically following the rule 2 stacks for a cast-time heal / 1 stack for an instant heal.
There is also the question whether individual hot tics count towards these numbers. We should consider the answer could be a combination of 2 the suggestions above.

#33 BigNeptune

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:32 AM

After many pulls so far tonight I've figured out what seemed to me to be the efficient way to give out stacks on Heroic Garaj. Having tried Conductivity, Healing Tide, Ascendance, Healing Rain, etc while down in the Spirit Realm it seems that our HoT's refresh the tick of the buff and perhaps help add additional stacks as well as single target heals.

I've heard people saying Healing Tide -does- work but it does not for me, it neither refreshed the stack or added to it. The maximum amount of stacks I have been able to push has been keeping everyone with Riptide and spamming Healing Surge on both of them like crazy. I've made both DPS hit 22 with Riptide and HS Spam, whereas only one would get to 20 and the other 14/15/16 without any Riptide's rolling.

#34 Fluflis

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:31 AM

I was trying to find around the net what is supposed to be a good way to handle healing spells with Ascendance assuming a situation like Arcane Velocity in Feng HC encounter. I'm guessing having Healing Rain down and 3 riptides (if unglyphed) beforehand would be required. But I can't figure out if it's better to just Chain Heal or Healing Surge/Riptide for Tidal (I have around 19% crit raid buffed) or Chain Heal/Healing Surge. I know some of the options are more mana intense than others but it would be useful for the thread to have some info about that matter at least HPS-wise.
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#35 Therya

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:30 AM

An update on HC Garaj'al. It seems that indeed HoTs refresh the timer whereas bigger spells (either GHW or HS ) will add stacks. It mainly has to do however with how big the spells throughput is compared to the previous one, so knowing your targets and applying riptides on them before entering the realm seems the way to go.

On the discussion about Ascendance. Everything depends on the fight, the situation you find yourself in and your healing assignment. Like it was mentioned some options will require more mana but the decision between HPS and HPM is one tough choice healers always have been faced with. The most valuable information that restos can take is that Ascendance is dynamically snapshotting your stats meaning it dynamically changes depending on your stats and is affecting every healing spell in the same way as well. Pre-casting or pre-hoting is therefore recommended.

Some options on spells and on the question of what spell to use there already exists a very good analysis at #15

I will bring up the table that interests us below :

[TABLE="head"]Spell |Buff |HPM 0% Crit|HPM 0% Crit + 2PC Bonus|HPM 10% Crit|HPM 10% Crit + 2PC Bonus|HPM 20% Crit|HPM 20% Crit + 2PC Bonus|HPS 0% Crit|HPS 10% Crit|HPS 20% Crit

GHW |No TW|

3.183

|

3.537

|

3.934

|

4.371

|

4.776

|

5.307

|

23568

|

27528

|

31485


|

TW

|

3.183

|

3.537

|

3.934

|

4.371

|

4.776

|

5.307

|

33581

|

39223

|

44861

|

||||||||||

HS |No TW|

2.058

|

2.058

|

2.468

|

2.468

|

2.899

|

2.899

|

32333

|

37765

|

43197

|

|

TW

|

3.355

|

3.355

|

3.837

|

3.837

|

4.348

|

4.348

|

48628

|

54061

|

59492

|

[/TABLE]

I don't yet have an analysis on Riptide VS Chain heal HPS VS HPM however since Ascendance only lasts for 15sec I personally would prefer bringing up TW by using Riptide rather than casting a long CH. I will put this on my ToDo list if anyone would like to help with that I will welcome any numbers.

Judging from the table above we can see what spell to use and in what situation between our "heavy hitting" options. (Assuming we have already layered down HR and pre casted Riptides appropriately). Depending on how much efficient we want to be with our mana or how much more throughput we want to bring to the table GHW (above 10%crit) is always going to be our most efficient choice whereas HS our best throughput choice. Notice however the change between our spells being buffed with TW or not. While the best throughput will always occur when TW is up, GHW with TW and HS without TW HPS is almost the same. In a twisted way we can say that HPS wise it will be the same if we chain cast HS without TW as if casting RT-GHW-GHW-RT-GHW-GHW etc.
Again there is no "best" way to use Ascendance. What is best will always be dictated by the circumstances that the fight finds you in and what you choose to do with your efficiency VS your throughput. In a world where mana wasn't an issue chaincasting HS either with TW or without would probably be the most viable option. RT-HW-HW would always be your most efficient one.

#36 Fluflis

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:06 PM

Although I saw that table you reposted (and thanks for the answer), it was just not complete on the Ascendance part. Maybe my question was poorly asked but what I basically meant is if I had all the mana of the world and heals weren't going to be overheals, what would produce the most HPS in these 15seconds. I know it depends on situation and that it might not be the most practical thing to do, at least on this tier. But knowing the high/low extreme (which is mostly theoritical) of a situation is useful in the meaning that you can adjust between - depending on the situation as you mentioned (which is player's judgement).

Maybe you need to push healing wtih max throughput with Ascendance, maybe you need to just support the rest of healers or maybe you know you aren't using it within next 3 minutes, so you cast it for mana conserve reasons. But it needs to know how to handle each type of usage. Since the most that troubled me was first case, I thought I could ask here. I don't know how to calculate that unfortunately (else I would post my calculations) and I believe it would be of some use in this thread.

I'm not going to bring that matter again, since I understand the thread is not all mine ofc course.
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#37 Ronark

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:00 PM

On the topic of Ascendance, can the additional healing crit and, if so, proc Resurgence? Or is the amount simply based on the initial heal?

Has it also been determined to have an AE heal cap (6 people)? I run with a 10 man guild so it hardly affects me either way when Offspec healing, but it is important for 25 man guilds.

It should also be mentioned that Spiritual Innervation - Spell - World of Warcraft is the buff recieved by the DPS/Tanks in the Spirit Realm.

#38 Therya

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:02 AM

I don't know if the additional healing crit will proc Resurgence I will put it on my ToDo list.

Not sure if Ascendance has a cap, however all AoE spells are supposed to cap at 6 but the way Ascendance works is by distributing the heals rather than healing separately. So I would presume without testing that it works as the green crystal at Ultraxion and doesn't have a cap.

Healers also receive Spiritual Innervation, which stacks exactly the way Spiritual Innervation stacks for DPS. What it does for healers is increase mana regeneration by increasing our spirit. Basically you come out of the spirit realm with full mana, and depending on your buff's duration for full mana until it fades.

#39 Ronark

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

Correct, Blizzard seems to have scratched the idea of class specific resources (Chi, embers, holy power etc).

#40 Judgejoebrwn

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:17 PM

I was trying to find around the net what is supposed to be a good way to handle healing spells with Ascendance assuming a situation like Arcane Velocity in Feng HC encounter. I'm guessing having Healing Rain down and 3 riptides (if unglyphed) beforehand would be required. But I can't figure out if it's better to just Chain Heal or Healing Surge/Riptide for Tidal (I have around 19% crit raid buffed) or Chain Heal/Healing Surge. I know some of the options are more mana intense than others but it would be useful for the thread to have some info about that matter at least HPS-wise.


I'm starting a spreadsheet to figure this out. One question I have is: when Ascendance is used, do already-active healing spells apply? I would assume so, but this would need clarified for sure.




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