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Rogue Simple Questions: Mists Edition


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#1 Aldriana

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 12:29 AM

This is the thread for simple questions that don't fit anywhere else. If your question applies to one of the existing thread topics, please post it there instead; if you expect to generate significant additional discussion, create a new thread. If, however, you have a simple question that only requires a simple answer and don't see a better place to post it, this is your thread.

Note, however, that you should still verify that the answer isn't already easily available before posting. Asking people to make specific gear or spec decisions for you is still against the rules. In fact, all forum rules still apply, so please post accordingly.

#2 Rigapples

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:14 PM

Not sure if anyone has noticed/tested, but I have exactly 7.5% (768 hit rating) and I am missing the Raiders Test Dummy with Sinister Strikes. My character sheet has a 0.00% chance to miss a level 88 boss with a special, and yet I am missing. (Log says missed, not dodged or parried.)

http://i.imgur.com/YOmc7.jpg

Not sure if I am missing something or if the character sheet is off... I am missing enough to notice a significant issue, so I am guessing it's not a rounding error where I can't see a .004 miss chance.

I thought the new cap was 7.5 (and per the character sheet it appears to be for both Expertise and Hit.) Am I missing something here?

#3 Viper

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:24 PM

It's possible the raider training dummy is actually behaving as a level 93, judging by the extreme amount of glances and misses there. I believe this is what happened on the beta as well, if memory serves.

#4 Isebel

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:35 AM

I ran some damage on the current raiding dummies and considering I had 70% glancing on my white swings I'd venture to say that they are level 93. Wouldn't be surprising considering this is really "Mists of Pandaria" so to speak as far as the current content is considered.

#5 Milano

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:41 AM

How are people adapting to the change to Shadow Dance now as it shares stance-bar with Stealth? I'm having major issues with it as using stance-macros while vanished performs Shadow Dance-abilities. The obvious fix for it was to cancle the aura of Vanish, but this requires double-clicking a macro. I don't feel this is a good solution to this problem. Also, when adding Premeditation to the macros, the icon doesn't automaticly change accordingly to the stances. Allthough just a minor quality of life-issue.

#6 sabiczech

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

How are people adapting to the change to Shadow Dance now as it shares stance-bar with Stealth? I'm having major issues with it as using stance-macros while vanished performs Shadow Dance-abilities. The obvious fix for it was to cancle the aura of Vanish, but this requires double-clicking a macro. I don't feel this is a good solution to this problem. Also, when adding Premeditation to the macros, the icon doesn't automaticly change accordingly to the stances. Allthough just a minor quality of life-issue.


I had to rewrite all my macros, but I have them working righ now.

#showtooltip shadow dance
/use potion of the tol'vir
/cast [stance:3] premeditation
/cast [stance:3] Ambush
/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance

I have it on shift+wheel up, in combat it uses potion and casts shadow dance and then casts premeditation and ambush till the end of SD.

#showtooltip eviscerate
/cast [modifier: alt] rupture
/cast [stance:1] premeditation
/cast [stance:1] Ambush
/cast [stance:0/3] eviscerate

I have it on wheel up, in vanish (subterfuge) it casts prem + ambush, in combat and shadow dance it casts evis and if I press alt+wup it casts rupture.

Dunno if it helps you, but it’s working for me just fine.

#7 piou

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:10 AM

Sooo, to get this recapped and straight! I know its still very early of 5.0.4 and 5.0.5 right around the corner with some tweaks, but is my info correct? Please feel free to correct any misconceptions.

Spec choice (very generic):

1) Single target; Mut>Sub>Combat
2) Dual target; Combat>Mut>Sub
3) AoE involved; Mut>Combat~Sub (Depends if dual cleave of Combat beats single target of Sub)

Reforge Choice:

1) Mut: Like 4.3.4, but mind the 7.5% Hit and Expertise needed.
2) Combat: Like 4.3.4, but mind the 7.5% Hit and Expertise needed.
3) Sub: 2 t12/2 t13 not viable anymore, thus Crit value greatly declines compared to 4.3.4, so new stat weighting post needed?

Gear:

-> Fast offhand no longer plays ANY dps gain role in ANY spec.
-> BiS gear for T13 should be according to the above Reforge Choices.

#8 Thanator94

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:44 PM

I have really been frustrated with the proc rate of the Fangs of the Father on my Subtlety spec and totally blown away at the INCREDIBLE proc rate my Assassination spec is seeing with the legendary daggers since the patch went through on Tuesday.

Seeing proc rates for Subtlety like Combat just broke my heart. Thought it was intentional till I was reading over on the MMO Champions site and uncovered something very valuable to Rogues.

The blue posts state nothing has changed and the proc rates remain at

-- Fangs of the Father
---- Assassination: 23.139% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Combat: 9.438% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Subtlety: 28.223% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.

So what gives then??? Let me give credit to the poster on MMO Champoins... Dreadlord

-Quote-
I just tried changing my combat spec to sub and now its procing correctly with 2 sub specs but only in the one that was combat. I'm guess its having issues figuring out what specs are what the new spec system.
- Unquote -

So all Subtlety rogues who are crying... dont give up totally... just go in and change your talent choice to combat and right back to subtlety and all should be good.

Of course it still looks like Assassination may be the better choice in 5.04 for those with the legendaries... but i am sure subtlety will still be just as good.

#9 Rigapples

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:25 PM

The blue posts state nothing has changed and the proc rates remain at

-- Fangs of the Father
---- Assassination: 23.139% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Combat: 9.438% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Subtlety: 28.223% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.

So what gives then??? Let me give credit to the poster on MMO Champoins... Dreadlord


I am wondering if the change to Poisons (moving to be Melee Hit from Spell Hit) is also the cause of a significantly higher proc rate for Assassination. I JUST got my daggers, so I am not sure if poisons always were able to proc the stacks, or if the original intent was just CP Builders and Finishers. Now that poisons are on the melee hit we could be getting a significant boost (in all specs, but especially mutilate) on stacks.

Of course this COULD be intentional due to all the other changes of 5.0.4. The proc itself wouldn't have changed (which would be technically correct based on the blue post) but since poisons would now be in the fold to cause procs, the effective stacking rate would be increased across all specs, with Assassination getting the greatest boost.

Just some thoughts.

#10 Aldriana

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 05:40 PM

I have heard some people theorizing that it might have something to do with dual specs - not sure of the details, but I've seen reports that respeccing can affect it in non-obvious ways. No idea if there's any merit to the theory or not, but it might be worth investigating by those of you who are attempting to diagnose what's going on.

#11 vanish

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:42 PM

I have really been frustrated with the proc rate of the Fangs of the Father on my Subtlety spec and totally blown away at the INCREDIBLE proc rate my Assassination spec is seeing with the legendary daggers since the patch went through on Tuesday.

So all Subtlety rogues who are crying... dont give up totally... just go in and change your talent choice to combat and right back to subtlety and all should be good.

Of course it still looks like Assassination may be the better choice in 5.04 for those with the legendaries... but i am sure subtlety will still be just as good.

From what I've seen going in a bg makes the daggers bug out for some reason for sub. I've done this three times now and its worked each time. To make it have the right proc for sub you have to switch your sub spec to the opposite spec in your dual spec. So if sub was your primary spec make it your secondary spec or vice versa. That has fixed it every time for me.

#12 Thanator94

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:03 PM

Well after further analysis and switching back and forth I can say that the proc rate for the Shadow of the Destroyer in Subtlety remains much lower than when in Assassination spec. I read through numerous World of Logs for different guilds and rogues and found that the performance I am personally seeing between Assassination and Subtlety is consistent to theirs

It appears that Assassination is getting a stack of Shadow of the Destroyer every 0.8 - 0.9 seconds; Subtlety at about eevery 1.2 - 1.4 seconds; and Combat somewhere around 1.6 - 1.8 seconds. As someone mentioned earlier as a theory... it appears the changes to Deadly Poison is the driver here. In fact when I looked at World of Log reports for AoE heavy fights the frequency of stacks for Shadow of the Destoyer went to rediculious levels for Assassination rogues thanks to multiple stacks for each cast of FoK or Crimson Tempest.

Which leads to a very disturbing observation. Numerous of the "best" guild's rogues are still running Dragon Soul as Combat spec with the Legendary daggers. Why? Everything i have seen in testing and using SimulationCraft shows Combat with the daggers at least 20% behind assassination and 10-15% behind subtlety.

Am i missing something where Combat with legendary daggers is actually still the best choice?

#13 Aldriana

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:14 PM

Am i missing something where Combat with legendary daggers is actually still the best choice?


I suspect what it comes down to is that people have 6 months of practice doing the fights as combat, and with the 35% buff it really doesn't matter if your DPS isn't theoretically optimal, so for the last couple of weeks before the expansion here... people are sticking with what they know. There are times when there's significant value in playing the theoretically optimal spec... but this isn't one of them.

#14 piou

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

Hmm I remember that for 4.3, mut spec had to envenom ONLY at exactly 4 or 5 cps when out of execute phase (>35% target's HP) and ONLY at exactly 5 cps when at execute (aka Dispatch now) phase.

Do the above still stand?

#15 kindath

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

Hmm I remember that for 4.3, mut spec had to envenom ONLY at exactly 4 or 5 cps when out of execute phase (>35% target's HP) and ONLY at exactly 5 cps when at execute (aka Dispatch now) phase.

Do the above still stand?


Yes. In fact, you're less likely to waste combo points now than before patch, given that mutilate lost 15% crit and backstab/dispatch lost 30%.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I meant that envenoming at 4 below 35% is worse than thechance to waste a combo point (which is lower than before the patch) by dispatching to 5. And similarly, if you have 4cp and a dispatch proc, it's usually worthwhile to dispatch for the 5th before envenoming.

#16 dizzlex

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:37 AM

Yes. In fact, you're less likely to waste combo points now than before patch, given that mutilate lost 15% crit and backstab/dispatch lost 30%.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I meant that envenoming at 4 below 35% is worse than thechance to waste a combo point (which is lower than before the patch) by dispatching to 5. And similarly, if you have 4cp and a dispatch proc, it's usually worthwhile to dispatch for the 5th before envenoming.


I certainly appreciate someone finally bringing up these fringe scenarios regarding dispatch usage at 4+ combo points, these are the things that drive me ABSOLUTELY insane, until I know the correct answer.

Are we 100% sure that a dispatch should be used from 4 to 5 pts to get a 5pt envenom off? Are we taking into consideration the fact that the free dispatch after the envenom can be used to keep the envenom debuff uptime higher by allowing faster combo building on our next envenom?

I am no expert, and I certainly don't claim to know the right answer, but I would appreciate more than just a post on the forums saying this is right and this is wrong without some kind of mathematical or simulation based evidence. With that being said, while I certainly am not lacking in curiosity about these scenarios, I don't possess the math or simulation skills to determine a proper answer.

Can anyone give some solid feed back on these types of scenarios yet?

#17 Wytryszek

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:18 PM

does indeed have a 55 second ICD, and most of the time I have around 36% uptime with it.


These trinkets are not unique. Is it possible to carry 2, or do they share their proc cooldown or something like that?

#18 diodiablo

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:29 PM

These trinkets are not unique. Is it possible to carry 2, or do they share their proc cooldown or something like that?


If I remember correctly, the same kind of trinket share the same cooldown, I'm not sure if the internal cd behaves in the same way, but it's reasonable, since the effect name is the same.

#19 kindath

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:53 PM

I certainly appreciate someone finally bringing up these fringe scenarios regarding dispatch usage at 4+ combo points, these are the things that drive me ABSOLUTELY insane, until I know the correct answer.

Are we 100% sure that a dispatch should be used from 4 to 5 pts to get a 5pt envenom off? Are we taking into consideration the fact that the free dispatch after the envenom can be used to keep the envenom debuff uptime higher by allowing faster combo building on our next envenom?

I am no expert, and I certainly don't claim to know the right answer, but I would appreciate more than just a post on the forums saying this is right and this is wrong without some kind of mathematical or simulation based evidence. With that being said, while I certainly am not lacking in curiosity about these scenarios, I don't possess the math or simulation skills to determine a proper answer.

Can anyone give some solid feed back on these types of scenarios yet?


I am basing my response mainly on the fact that 5 cp envenoms were optimal during backstab phase before the patch, and you're 30% less likely to waste a CP than you were before.

However, the argument has merit beyond that. If you're at 4cp with a dispatch proc, dispatching to 5 will make the following envenom buff last 1 second longer, and makes the envenom do ~20% more damage.
By contrast, saving it until after the envenom will get envenom buff up 1 second faster and start you off with ~1.4 cp towards your next, but that could lead to forcing another 4 point envenom.

I don't know for certain, but the envenom uptime seems more or less the same, (applied 1 second earlier vs 1 second longer duration to build up to the next), but 5pt envenoms give greater damage.

#20 kindath

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:03 PM

If I remember correctly, the same kind of trinket share the same cooldown, I'm not sure if the internal cd behaves in the same way, but it's reasonable, since the effect name is the same.


Just checked with two of these on the combat dummy, no double procs and the closest time between procs was about 55 seconds. I can say fairly conclusively that they share an ICD.

You may be able to use one of these and one Ruthless Insignia, but a pve trinket is probably better than that option.




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