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Rogue Simple Questions: Mists Edition


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#21 Trymore

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:41 PM

Is haste so valuable stat if Combat Potency generated by OH attacks is now PPM? And Main Gauche has always 20% proc chance, so I think mastery will be more (or equal) than haste now, or am I wrong?

#22 Squirl

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:32 PM

This is a bit of a general question, but what is the relationship of EP and DPS? EP != DPS, correct? How are EP values converted to theoretical DPS? Hopefully this only requires a simple answer.

#23 Elofax

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:52 PM

Is haste so valuable stat if Combat Potency generated by OH attacks is now PPM? And Main Gauche has always 20% proc chance, so I think mastery will be more (or equal) than haste now, or am I wrong?


The chance to proc a PPM effect is determined by the base weapon speed (i.e. as if haste were zero), not by your actual attack speed after applying haste, Slice and Dice, etc.; more haste thus results in more procs.

#24 Docrev

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:04 PM

This is a bit of a general question, but what is the relationship of EP and DPS? EP != DPS, correct? How are EP values converted to theoretical DPS? Hopefully this only requires a simple answer.

An increase of 1 EP is equivalent to an increase in DPS granted by 1 AP.

#25 Squirl

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:29 PM

An increase of 1 EP is equivalent to an increase in DPS granted by 1 AP.


How is the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP determined? This is the question I was trying to get at, and a simple answer is probably not what I'm looking for, so I'll ask this instead: is there a resource I can look at that explains how the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP is determined?

#26 Pathal

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 03:09 PM

How is the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP determined? This is the question I was trying to get at, and a simple answer is probably not what I'm looking for, so I'll ask this instead: is there a resource I can look at that explains how the increase in DPS of an increase of 1 AP is determined?


https://github.com/d...__init__.py#L91

We measure the change in DPS that results from adding a point of a stat (certain capable stats aside), and compare it to the change in DPS from a point of AP. Some stats work the opposite way.

#27 urona

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:20 PM

Well after further analysis and switching back and forth I can say that the proc rate for the Shadow of the Destroyer in Subtlety remains much lower than when in Assassination spec. I read through numerous World of Logs for different guilds and rogues and found that the performance I am personally seeing between Assassination and Subtlety is consistent to theirs

It appears that Assassination is getting a stack of Shadow of the Destroyer every 0.8 - 0.9 seconds; Subtlety at about eevery 1.2 - 1.4 seconds; and Combat somewhere around 1.6 - 1.8 seconds. As someone mentioned earlier as a theory... it appears the changes to Deadly Poison is the driver here. In fact when I looked at World of Log reports for AoE heavy fights the frequency of stacks for Shadow of the Destoyer went to rediculious levels for Assassination rogues thanks to multiple stacks for each cast of FoK or Crimson Tempest.

Which leads to a very disturbing observation. Numerous of the "best" guild's rogues are still running Dragon Soul as Combat spec with the Legendary daggers. Why? Everything i have seen in testing and using SimulationCraft shows Combat with the daggers at least 20% behind assassination and 10-15% behind subtlety.

Am i missing something where Combat with legendary daggers is actually still the best choice?



Never under estimate the sticking to an habit, even a bad one.

By now, people know there raid mechanic and play it on an auto pilot, switching to a new spec and practicing this new spec mechanic for the next two week on old bosses can be one of the reasons.

I switch to Assassin and never looked back, I do missed Blade Flurry but by now the other dps classes in the raid group can cope with adds/trash very easily.

I only wish the game could allow 3rd spec since I mostly miss the Sub spec with all of its relative complexity and burst of power in PvE. As I see it right now, Assassin/Combat be the default choices for the mist patch.

Urona (of English as 2nd Language)

#28 Druss

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:58 PM

I only wish the game could allow 3rd spec since I mostly miss the Sub spec with all of its relative complexity and burst of power in PvE. As I see it right now, Assassin/Combat be the default choices for the mist patch.

Urona (of English as 2nd Language)


Don't be so quick to write Sub off as a PvE spec!

I played Sub/Combat pre 5.0 and have since tested Assass and Sub with heavy mastery reforge that you'd in general assume is of greater benefit to Assass. This is anecdotal but, despite keeping the same reforging, Sub damage is rivaling if not exceeding Assassination principally because of the buffs to Evis....especially with legendaries and heavy mastery. Sub is putting out incredible damage during Fury of the Destroyer with the the FW debuff on.

More testing is needed obviously but I retain high hopes for Sub as a viable PvE spec. Obviously level 90 might change all this but certain, for now at least, Sub is still excellent in pve even with the new changes.

#29 urona

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:19 PM

Thats good news regarding Sub... I agree more testing are needed especially when we need to replace the current Legendary daggers to the "normal" type and we won't be able to count on the proc. As for the mechanic of these two spec, if Assassin still be the easiest of the three and Sub is the hardest, people will take that also into account and may prefer a bit lower DPS.

Urona

#30 Dolors

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:54 PM

Is troll still the best Horde race when considering DPS min/maxing or has it changed to pandaren/undead?

#31 dizzlex

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:14 AM

Is troll still the best Horde race when considering DPS min/maxing or has it changed to pandaren/undead?


Very situational. It is possible that the Pandaren food racial will be the best for min/maxing straight patchwork fights, but fights with burn phases tend to favor troll for berserking. If the boss is considered a "beast" then hands down, troll is the best because of Beast Slaying

With that said, fights where extra movement come in handy actually favor goblin with rocket jump to increase overall uptime, but with shadowstep, prep, burst of speed, being available to anyone, this may be of little benefit.

Undead's new Touch of the Grave is an interesting, "set it and forget it" racial

Did some SimC work on racials @ lvl 85.

These results came from my rogue: Dizzlex on Mal'ganis server in bis gear and Assassination spec. Since we are using daggers, the axe expertise bonus doesn't get added. This is something to keep in mind, moving forward into MOP when axes and fist weapons may be more readily available.

Troll: 65569 dps. If Beast Slaying then 68847 dps
Goblin: 65100 dps
Undead: 65046 dps with exactly 258dps from touch of the grave.
Orc: 65332 dps
Pandaren: 65434 dps

Went ahead and ran it at lvl 85 in my bis gear with panda food and buff and nothing changes. Troll is still the best by a large margin. It seems like the berserking actually makes better usage of the actual stat increase than any other racial, even when you consider that pandas get double. Troll>panda>orc>blood elf>goblin>undead

blood elf, goblin, undead are all within 100 dps of each other out of roughly 70k.

Did the same thing for lvl 90 with my gear, and the numbers were way low because hit and such aren't scaled to 90 like they should be, but the numbers are still fairly accurate. Troll>panda>orc>blood elf>goblin>undead

I will run this again once I hit 90 to make sure.

With this said, pandas are cool and shiny and not far behind in damage.

#32 Docrev

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:20 AM

They replaced underwater breathing with Touch of the Grave, so unlike previously, the Forsaken actually get to have a DPS racial. Not overly sure how it scales, though.

#33 Weather

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

I apologize if this has been addressed already, but has there been any calculation what weapon enchant gives most DPS and how that dps is distributed over time regarding Elemental Force and Dancing Steel?

#34 Cubito

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:48 AM

Very situational. It is possible that the Pandaren food racial will be the best for min/maxing straight patchwork fights, but fights with burn phases tend to favor troll for berserking. If the boss is considered a "beast" then hands down, troll is the best because of Beast Slaying

With that said, fights where extra movement come in handy actually favor goblin with rocket jump to increase overall uptime, but with shadowstep, prep, burst of speed, being available to anyone, this may be of little benefit.

Undead's new Touch of the Grave is an interesting, "set it and forget it" racial

Did some SimC work on racials @ lvl 85.

These results came from my rogue: Dizzlex on Mal'ganis server in bis gear and Assassination spec. Since we are using daggers, the axe expertise bonus doesn't get added. This is something to keep in mind, moving forward into MOP when axes and fist weapons may be more readily available.

Troll: 65569 dps. If Beast Slaying then 68847 dps
Goblin: 65100 dps
Undead: 65046 dps with exactly 258dps from touch of the grave.
Orc: 65332 dps
Pandaren: 65434 dps

Went ahead and ran it at lvl 85 in my bis gear with panda food and buff and nothing changes. Troll is still the best by a large margin. It seems like the berserking actually makes better usage of the actual stat increase than any other racial, even when you consider that pandas get double. Troll>panda>orc>blood elf>goblin>undead

blood elf, goblin, undead are all within 100 dps of each other out of roughly 70k.

Did the same thing for lvl 90 with my gear, and the numbers were way low because hit and such aren't scaled to 90 like they should be, but the numbers are still fairly accurate. Troll>panda>orc>blood elf>goblin>undead

I will run this again once I hit 90 to make sure.

With this said, pandas are cool and shiny and not far behind in damage.


Hi

Someone can confirm this race ranks at the 90 ?
Or there is a spreedsheet to simulate ?

Thanks

#35 Enu

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:56 PM

Hello as I am really confused about current situation when it comes to Assassination EP I came here asking isn't the first thing we should aim to achieve 7.5% Expertise rating and Hit rating so we cover the poison cap?.. at least that is what I was reading on others rogues blogs.

That is why I am confused how come that Mastery still comes in-front of Expertise EP wise based on Assassination forum. Does that means we can disregard Expertise cap and just go with Mastery stacking?

#36 Rfeann

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:07 PM

The "how come" is pretty straightforward: The way the smartfolk have modeled it thus far, it looks like the poison damage increase granted by mastery is simply worth more than the dodge/miss reduction granted by expertise. They're both important, it's just that one appears to shake out to be a little more important than the other right now.

There may still be occasions when you end up reforging into expertise. For instance, if you're at the hit cap and a piece of gear has crit and mastery on it, you'll likely be reforging that crit into expertise.

Let this be a lesson, kids: Blogs and forum posts are just blogs and forum posts. Conjecture is conjecture. Math is math. :)

#37 Hamstring

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:53 PM

Hi

Someone can confirm this race ranks at the 90 ?
Or there is a spreedsheet to simulate ?

Thanks


Also, how do the alliance races stack up in comparison?

Cheers.

#38 Acreus

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:38 AM

I was curious, is it better to have a slow offhand or a fast offhand as a subtlety rogue at 90?

#39 Wytryszek

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:29 AM

Does anybody has an insight as to at which point it is worth it to break the 4xT13 HC set? And a similar question about when to replace the Fangs?

#40 dizzlex

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:02 AM

I am simming the legendary daggers as more than 1000 dps better than double 463 daggers in Assassination spec. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?

Edit: You can delete this post if you want, I went ahead and expand on my information in the post below.




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