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Rogue Simple Questions: Mists Edition


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#41 dizzlex

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

I was curious, is it better to have a slow offhand or a fast offhand as a subtlety rogue at 90?


There is no such thing as a "slow" or "fast" dagger speed anymore. All daggers have been normalized to 1.8 speed with the exception of the level 80 Kaluak rep dagger that is 1.7.

Hi

Someone can confirm this race ranks at the 90 ?
Or there is a spreedsheet to simulate ?

Thanks

In regard to the question above about racials for Alliance and Horde, if you give me a day or two I will run some numbers and get back with an answer. I will update this post with information when I have it.

Does anybody has an insight as to at which point it is worth it to break the 4xT13 HC set? And a similar question about when to replace the Fangs?


Can you please be more specific with the information you are wanting to know. What spec are you referring to? In general just wait until you can buy the 450ilvl pvp or justice gear at 90 and that should sufficiently replace the t13. You "could" do it sooner, but to try and simcraft every possible combination of leveling gear is incredibly time consuming, nearly impossible, and most importantly, pointless.

As for the daggers...
  • Assassination: According to my simulation numbers and backed up by in game testing, not until you have double 463ilvl daggers or better.

  • Combat: Any combination of 450 Weapons should be fine as long as you are using at least a 2.6 speed main hand. Optimally you would want both weapons to be slow, but the difference is minimal. You won't start seeing any real difference in damage until you get at least one 463 weapon since the gain from legendaries to 450 weapons is less than .001%

  • Subtlety: Same situation as Assassination, it's not worth the switch until you can equip dual 463 daggers.

We complained about not being able to use our legendaries for very long but it seems we may be able to get more use out of them than we thought.

#42 Pathal

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:20 PM

SimC doesn't factor in the proc rate decay, if that's what you're relying off of.

#43 Wytryszek

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:55 PM

Can you please be more specific with the information you are wanting to know. What spec are you referring to? In general just wait until you can buy the 450ilvl pvp or justice gear at 90 and that should sufficiently replace the t13.

As far as I understand (just about to ding 90 myself) I can't just get 450ilvl justice gear right away, because it's locked behind some reputation grind. So I expect to collect the pieces gradually one by one from dungeons.
The better way to put my question would be probably: how many 450/463 gear pieces should I have to start breaking down the 4xT13 hc set bonus?
And thank you for the answer about daggers - very interesting.

Edit: OK, scratch my question: I just read the news:
"We've just applied a hotfix that removes the faction requirements for Justice gear."

#44 Azzuric

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

The 450 gear doesent need reputation anymore.

edit: slow reply

#45 Acreus

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:51 PM

No no no, what I'm asking is, should Subtlety be dual-wielding daggers, or does dagger/2.6 speed put out more DPS?

#46 Rfeann

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:41 PM

The only benefit of a slow offhand in Sub is... oh, wait, sorry, there ain't none. Sub has zero abilities that rely on raw off-hand weapon damage, so there's no upside. The downside, meanwhile, is fewer Deadly Poison procs, since DP is not normalized for weapon speed.

There's probably a theoretical threshold at which, if you're staring an absolutely massive DPS upgrade in the face, it's worthwhile to use a 2.6 instead of a 1.8 in the off-hand. But I sure as heck ain't gonna bother mathing that one out, since it's likely a pretty massive (and thus unrealistic) gap.

#47 dizzlex

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:51 AM

The only benefit of a slow offhand in Sub is... oh, wait, sorry, there ain't none. Sub has zero abilities that rely on raw off-hand weapon damage, so there's no upside. The downside, meanwhile, is fewer Deadly Poison procs, since DP is not normalized for weapon speed.

There's probably a theoretical threshold at which, if you're staring an absolutely massive DPS upgrade in the face, it's worthwhile to use a 2.6 instead of a 1.8 in the off-hand. But I sure as heck ain't gonna bother mathing that one out, since it's likely a pretty massive (and thus unrealistic) gap.


Edit: Offhand can indeed apply poison. The issue in testing was coming from switching specs and putting on only an offhand. Apparently, you must reapply poisons each time you equip weapons even if the buff is present on your bar. Apologies.

#48 Aldriana

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:07 AM

Uh... citation? AFAIK all poisons proc from both weapons, so unless you have proof that the situation is otherwise, I call bullshit.

#49 Rfeann

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:34 AM

I'd figure this sort of thing would be a little unlikely if off-hand weapons were no longer part of the poison proc equation:

10/2 22:24:29.180 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,221,220,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/2 22:24:29.180 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,108,107,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/2 22:24:30.325 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,113780,"Deadly Poison",0x8,982,981,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/2 22:24:30.325 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF
10/2 22:24:30.326 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,113780,"Deadly Poison",0x8,1067,1066,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/2 22:24:30.326 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0580000004760806,"Rfeann",0x511,0x0,0xF130B63700001192,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF


(That's from the Stupid Alchemist Stone testing log I took earlier tonight.)

#50 Rfeann

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:51 AM

Huh. Has the timing of poison hits always been out of sync with the corresponding melee hit like that? I'd never paid close attention to those sorts of thngs before. I'm curious as to why there would be a full-second delay before the proc; is it just a natural effect of the poison "roll" coming after the server is notified that a melee swing has occurred? (The trinket procs were similarly "detached" from their proccing action.)

#51 Pathal

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:12 AM

Huh. Has the timing of poison hits always been out of sync with the corresponding melee hit like that?


Yes.

I'm pretty sure it's almost entirely an issue of latency and packets, blended with the inherent limitations of computer code. It works like that for almost every proc/trigger/effect/etc.

#52 Shougeki

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:57 AM

SimC doesn't factor in the proc rate decay, if that's what you're relying off of.


So what is the outcome here? While leveling and doing dailies as Assassination, I noticed ridiculously quick FOTF procs. We start 25N raiding tonight, and while i have now replaced the legendaries with 2x Mantid Trochanter - Item - World of Warcraft with WindSong on them,

I'm wondering what is best. Having no knowledge of SimC, Im unsure what to go with. However I would have thought the raw agility at this gear level [HC dungeon gear] would prove to be better overall. Am I wrong?

#53 Schmoopy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:24 PM

As for the daggers...

  • Assassination: According to my simulation numbers and backed up by in game testing, not until you have double 463ilvl daggers or better.

We complained about not being able to use our legendaries for very long but it seems we may be able to get more use out of them than we thought.


I was testing out Assassination with daggers last night on Feng and I was finding my proc rate of legendary dagger to be much lower than what I experienced while leveling. It could just be the scaling decrease as I level, but it seems to me that daggers proc much less at 90. I have had terrible luck and only have ilvl 450 daggers at the moment.

Getting to my point, can you share any more about your simulation and testing that showed legendaries pulling ahead until 463 daggers? Or does anyone have more information about when it is worth replacing legendaries?

SimC doesn't factor in the proc rate decay, if that's what you're relying off of.


@Pathal: Can you elaborate on this comment? What is the proc rate decay?

#54 Rfeann

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

To this part of your post:

I was testing out Assassination with daggers last night on Feng and I was finding my proc rate of legendary dagger to be much lower than what I experienced while leveling. It could just be the scaling decrease as I level, but it seems to me that daggers proc much less at 90. I have had terrible luck and only have ilvl 450 daggers at the moment.


I give you the crab, from this official forum post in August.

-- Fangs of the Father
---- Assassination: 23.139% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Combat: 9.438% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- Subtlety: 28.223% chance on white/yellow melee landing, no ICD.
---- These chances are multiplied by 0.9 for lvl 89 targets, 0.8 for lvl 90 targets, 0.7 for lvl 91 targets, 0.6 for lvl 92 targets, and 0.5 for lvl 93+ targets.


The intent is obviously for the legendaries to become significantly less viable the closer we get to the new raid tier.

#55 TurboNitroMonkey

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:29 PM

For a Combat Rogue: given that Restless Blades speeds up cooldowns of Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades, but sadly, not the Troll racial: would it be beneficial for a Troll Rogue to bake the racial Berserking into the AR/SB macro, and then not use it otherwise, effectively causing it to be active for approximately every other AR/SB cast, but potentially leave it off cooldown for a minute or more between uses?

Or would it be better to pop AR/SB/Berserking together the first time, and then use AR/SB together when they come up next, then Berserking on its own when it comes off cooldown? (This is of course assuming no burn/gimmick phase where you'd logically save them.)

In short is the haste stacking of Berserking with the other cooldowns worth delaying its use for just that purpose, potentially causing a loss of uses during a fight?

#56 Rfeann

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

(Note: This post was edited significantly from its original after a re-read of the official forum thread.)

A quick note on : Blizzard has acknowledged that it's not proccing correctly at the moment -- at least for casters. Have any of you had issues with it?

A browse of some of the top rogue WoL parses from the first MV fight (Stone Guard) suggests that virtually all of them used Windsong; assuming I'm not misinterpreting the data here, it had an uptime ranging from the lower 30% range to the mid 40% range per weapon for that particular fight. I only saw one rogue with Dancing Steel in my spot-check; uptime was in the mid 70%s for that toon. As a reminder, both enchants are 1 PPM, but that obv doesn't automatically translate to equal uptime, so perhaps this is all working as intended for rogues and other melee DPS.

Hm. This post may have been a better fit in the general Mists thread below.

#57 Desuka

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

Is it worthwhile to tricks the the other dps in the raid or is it a waste of time with the energy cost?

#58 Omanko

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:31 AM

Regarding Windsong, it is in fact very bugged for casters; Melee however seem to work fine. Our warrior has been using it with very high uptimes (60+%), and it can also stack all 3 different buffs (crit/haste/mastery) at the same time, albeit not often. I see no reason to assume Rogues would work any differently, unless someone has evidence to the contrary?

#59 Deadlysháde

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:38 PM

Hi guys this is my first post on EJ and on top of that i don't speak the language so good so be gentle. I think that's the best thread to ask some simple questions about combat and mutilate spec. I read all the forums and i either couldn't find the answer,or the answer wasn't clear or there were many opinions. So here goes:

Combat : 1) What opener should i use ? 2)should i use rupture on my rotation or not? 3)should i have revealing strike on the target always? 4) is slow offhand better?(is the extra dmg from KS really better than the overall poison procs?) 5) At how many adds is it worth to use FOK and when i use FOK should i have BF open or not? 6)lastly i wanted to ask at how many seconds have the adds to survive to worth use CT and how many adds should they be (is it worth it to use it at two targets for example?)

Mutilate: 1) What opener should i use?( is garrote still the best?or should i start with mutilate-->SND or Rupture?
2)When i am using anticipation should i always use 5 CP finishers?(of course i will refresh rupture with any CP if it has a danger to drop) or the envenom buff is too good not to have it max time up time

Thanks in advance and sorry if some questions are too stupid or too simple but i wanted to be sure about some things.I hope that this post doesn't violate any of the rules of the forums.

#60 Lyanna

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:16 PM

Regarding Fan of knives and its changes in MoP, what is the minimum number of targets where it is worth using it? I'm guessing it differs for each spec but am mostly interested in combat.




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